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The “New Morality,” Faking It, and Marginalizing the Spinster (Aka. Sex-Positivism, Old School Style) October 1, 2010

Posted by FCM in books!, feminisms, gender roles, health, MRAs, PIV, politics, pop culture, self-identified feminist men.
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there seem to be essentially two ways that MRAs, anti-feminists and sex-pozzies go about their business of “discrediting” radical feminist work, and derailing the discussion to meet their own ends. and by “discrediting” and derailing, i mean calling radfems lesbians (because lesbians are always wrong) and the “end” appears to be, again, supporting the sex-positive agenda, which boiled down of its endlessly obfuscating rhetoric is approximately “PIV is truth.” 

the first one is the logical fallacy, which i diagrammed here. basically, they just make all kinds of idiotic conclusions that dont even follow from their own premises.  for example:  all lesbians eschew PIV; some radical feminists eschew PIV; therefore all radical feminists are lesbians.  LOGIC FAIL!  it also doesnt work to conclude that “some radical feminists are lesbians.”  this is just completely and utterly false.  and thats even without discussing that its also completely offensive to use “lesbian” this way.  DUH.  diagram it, and see for yourself. 

the other is the logical proof that is structurally true, but they fail to examine the premises.  that form of argument is diagrammed here.  basically: radfems are lesbians, and lesbians are always wrong about everything, and are evil and gross; therefore, radfems are always wrong about everything, and are evil and gross.  but their premises are a bit, um, politically incorrect, arent they?  i mean, i wouldnt expect anything less from the MRAs, but the sex-pozzies like to think they are better than that.  they arent.  

theres also nothing fresh or progressive about it.  again, we see in “spinster” that women who eschewed sexual relationships with men, even if they werent lesbians, were labelled as sexually frustrated man-haters, even though it was actually a hard-won option and was made possible by womens increasing economic opportunites that made mandatory heterosexual partnerships increasingly unnecessary.  which was obviously a good thing for any woman who found PIV problematic: 

 

and i bet they were all ugly and fat too!  because those characteristics also render anything a feminist has to say patently false.  so we are now on the road to separating spinsters from “normal” women.  we also saw a deliberate campaign at the time to encourage “good” women to be “enthusiastic” about their participation in PIV with men…gee, where have we heard that before?  and not only were spinsters not having PIV, they were further marginalized from “real women” who not only put up with it, like they had in the past, but also began to “like it.”  or you know, to pretend they did: 

 

radfems is bitter and dont like sex!  check.  real women let their men the world know how much they LOOOOVE PIV.  and this “sex positive” business is about as fresh and new as…well, pre-world war 1. 

so what is this all about, really?  and why did “PIV-positivism” and its attendant celibate-bashing and lesbian-inferring pop up at the precise moment it did?  could it possibly be because…some women were about to legitimately cast off PIV (and therefore men) for good?  looks like it: 

 

and from here of course, it was but a hop, skip and a jump to the creation of “lesbian” as a deviant sexual category.  yes, apparently, that was the beginning of the end of PIV-critical feminism, and it was instigated by male sexologists, and just at the right time, too.  issues of morality, sexual expression and orientation splintered feminists into basically 2 camps (care to name them?), and dealt the death blow to any real, earth-shattering feminist work, erasing anything PIV-critical, literally, from history (even the history of feminism):

 

new categories, based on sexual contact.  at exactly the same time that feminists were dissecting PIV, finding it problematic, and becoming socially and financially able to do without it, for probably the first time in history.  now why would that be?

 

what a coincidence. 

and did i say how utterly homophobic and regressive this all is? 

and its exactly as fresh as…this lace tea gown, which i found here, circa 1890-1892.  it couldve been worn by the first sex-positive feminists! now thats good history.

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Comments

1. factcheckme - October 1, 2010

actually its “lesbophobic” but teh sex-pozzies would never leave out teh menz!

2. sonia - October 1, 2010

what’s so additionally totally false is, like you stated, the portrayal that radical feminists are sorta broken in the pleasure department. Every radical feminist I have ever talked to has been actively pursuing a more pleasurable life for herself in some pretty brave ways, however because that pleasure does not equal male pleasure, it’s seen as totally unpleasurable. uhgain, men and sex positive females continue to be unable to see anything not through teh menz’ eyes. also, I’ve never met a radical feminist who just was anti-orgasm. They only radfems I hear from who are all clammed up about sex are ones who’ve just had it with sexual and physical abuse- totally normal, more than normal response to trauma. Avoid what’s hurt you before, even a lab rat will do it. however, the women I’ve known in my personal life who were genuinely uninterested in PIV or sex in general were often very very token. Super feminine, yet one-of-the-boys in their mentality, not at all aligned with women on a personal level, even scared shitless of them… radical feminists are into good shit. We like to eat good shit, be creative, and I think it’s way fuckin safe to say most of us hella dig a good orgasm. Not that there are ones that don’t, or that we have to, but it’s just not even true as a generalization.

it’s such another example of the way patriarchal propaganda is a total fucking reversal of reality-all the time, every day, no matter what it references.

3. Mary Sunshine - October 1, 2010

I suspect that it’s rare for any woman who feels that she “wants” or “needs” sex to ask herself why she feels that way.

4. Mary Sunshine - October 1, 2010

Also, females can give ourselves orgasms just by *thinking* about it; no physical stimulation is necessary.

So what is it that heterosexual women “want” when they say they “want to fuck”?

5. nuclearnight - October 1, 2010

Oh my fucking god, YES! I’m reading the Spinster and Her Enemies right now as well, I keep chuckling hysterically each time I read the word “enthusiastic”. You cannot make this shit up!
Obviously its not anything new or radical being pimped by the fun feminists, its just incredible that they use the SAME FUCKING WORDS to describe it.
Its interesting since radical feminism has come a long way in changing the language that the oppression of women is spoke in. They however are fighting to keep women basically in the dark ages of understanding what they are actually going through.

I enthusiastically recommend this book. Its freaking me the fuck out.

6. Sargassosea - October 1, 2010

Faking it. Joy was right about that, and I agree that that is essentially PIV-Poz mentality in a NUTshell.

I walked away from faking it some 15 years ago and it’s the best thing I ever did. It so happened, shortly thereafter that I partnered with a womon I had known since I was about 20. We (along with the *artificial*ly created human we call our daughter – and all of the pet-people too) are – gasp – still together and digging it :)

Even with the many happies I have due to our ever increasing Separatist tendencies, I still struggle with freeing myself from *conventional* constructs of sexuality; since sex = piv and that it has been reinforced over and over and over again everywhere we turn (ie – lesbians lurve dildos!1!) it proves difficult for me to imagine, let alone claim the sexuality I want. The well’s kind of poisoned, ya know?

The discussion here helps so much to part the clouds and really see all of this CRAP for what it really is. I thumb my nose at you, PIV!

(have I mentioned that FCM rocks?)

factcheckme - October 1, 2010

YES! i credit joy with bringing up “faking it.” she said it so well too.

7. mscitrus - October 1, 2010

Oh my gawd. This is so hilarious. Enthusiastic intercourse, indeed. Thank you for this FCM-I had no idea about any of this history.

Faking it is summarizes it perfectly. Been there, done that. Lord, I never had an orgasm at all with my last boyfriend and he probably still has no clue. Perhaps the funniest part about women who are accused of being sexually deficient is that they never consider hey, maybe it’s not women who are frigid-maybe men are just terrible in bed.

@Mary Sunshine
“I suspect that it’s rare for any woman who feels that she “wants” or “needs” sex to ask herself why she feels that way.”

This x1000. It’s especially important for women who have been raped to do, I think. I used to “want” sex because I wanted someone to like me, or even just to hurt myself. Or I simply felt like I had to. It was hard from me to realize this without taking a break from sex entirely, though.

“Also, females can give ourselves orgasms just by *thinking* about it; no physical stimulation is necessary.”

I totally used to be able to do this! After porn and fucking men, though, no dice anymore. :( I think I get pretty close sometimes with fanfiction or stuff I draw. :X(both of which I have to think out) Though it doesn’t feel the same as an orgasm with physical stimulation for me-although those feel pretty different from each other too.
I do wonder if it’s a bio female thing or just because men have never bothered, ’cause they always have porn + their hand or women to fuck. I don’t know how many people actually fantasize anymore.

@nuclearnight
“I enthusiastically recommend this book.”

I lol’d.

8. joy - October 2, 2010

Woo-ee! Thanks, FCM & Co.! I’m honored!

It’s like this (as you all know already):

Men think, as they have since prior the ‘sexual revolution’ (you know why revolutions are called revolutions? they keep coming back around again and again) of the Sixties, that women who don’t enjoy “sex” —

meaning MALE CENTRIC, PORNIFIED, PIV-CENTRIC if not PIV-EXCLUSIVE INTERCOURSE —

that we’re frigid, uptight, just want ‘relationships’ and/or money, just want to get pregnant, whatever.

Ah, but then the Sixties happened, and women got “the right” to “enjoy” “sex.” But most of them don’t anyway. Men can’t figure this out, and assign it as a defect in women. Those silly, frigid, overemotional prudes.

If you’re a woman like me, who was raised to believe (even in a totally antifeminist, woman-negative environment) that “girls are as good as boys”, and have spent your entire life fighting to be treated as something other than a fucking idiot just because you have a vagina, and know for damn sure that you enjoy an orgasm — BUT if you still give a rat’s ass what men think — this can rankle you.

It rankled me, when I still cared what men thought. So I decided, I’d fucking show him! I’d fuck his brains out!

Of course, I still didn’t -like- it (unless he deemed to go down on me, or use his hands, or something, before he stuck his dick in; and with some partners, not at all) … but naturally, HE liked it. I lost. He won.
But I convinced myself I liked it, all of it, all the time, because otherwise (I thought) I was admitting myself as ‘a prude’ or ‘high maintenance’ or any other female stereotype.

This is possibly quite common among sex-pozzers. Except I know I figured it out, very early on, whereas most of them don’t seem to progress past it.

Like Sonia said — radical feminists tend to be over that shit. We like to pursue things that actually enrich our lives, and frankly PIV does not do that. It’s like farting. Sometimes it can feel good, but big whoop. It’s just a fart. The only difference being, people HAVE to fart. People don’t have to have PIV.

Orgasms, of course, are a totally different matter totally different from PIV. For obvious reasons. Sex pozzers also seem to miss out on that (as SargassoSea observed, even lesbian sex pozzers seem really really invested in sticking something in).

Which brings to mind: anyone else ever experienced a cognitive befuddlement when faced with ‘sex-pos’ lesbians? You’d think that would be the one area where women could definitely escape the PIV, but no, not always. It’s mostly younger women, though — maybe they’re trying to escape or “subvert” (har har!) the nasty lesbian stereotypes mentioned above.

More about the actual essay, later.
PS: I ordered Anticlimax and The Spinster and Her Enemies today.

9. thebewilderness - October 2, 2010

I suppose PIV, like any other harmful activity, alcohol, tobacco, cutting, gymnastics, it is an acquired taste.
It hurts you and makes you feel bad but if you keep doing it you eventually get used to it. Then the familiarity is reinterpreted in the brain to represent enjoyment.

10. joy - October 2, 2010

“It hurts you and makes you feel bad but if you keep doing it you eventually get used to it. Then the familiarity is reinterpreted in the brain to represent enjoyment.”

Ha! Probably.

Throw in the cultural investment women have in “liking” it (the superficial benefits bestowed on women who ‘enjoy’ or at least submit uncomplainingly to PIV, and/or now PIA), and you have a perfect total headfuck. For women.

It seems almost smarter to risk it, to just go ahead and drink the Kool Aid … as long as you think all of the risks can never happen to YOU.

As long as you’re, essentially, good at dissociating. And handling cognitive dissonance, dealing with the little voice that is constantly trying to say, “Hey … uh … there’s something you ought to be thinking of …”

11. girl - October 2, 2010

this post was great.

i’ve been lurking your blog for a while, but i think this (and your previous post, i read them both just now lol) is what made me finally get it.

you know what i’ve noticed from A LOT of fun fems? they like to demonize first and second wavers for being racist and ableist and classist etc, which is all very well and i see their point, but now i wonder if it is also because once you start understanding what some of the first wavers were getting at you notice that all the sex positive stuff is just another scam spoon fed to us by the patriarchy to keep us prime for piv. i wonder how much else they’re trying to cover up…

factcheckme - October 2, 2010

Wow, really? The last 2 posts made someone “get it”? Excellent.

factcheckme - October 2, 2010

You know, I’ve started feeling badly for making so much fun of the fun fems. In this post, I didnt even use that term, and instead used “sex pozzies” because it seems to better include self-identified feminist men, and that’s really who are absolutely disgusting me at the moment. Not women as much. I dont think i even could be as disgusted with a woman as i could be with a man. This whole thing with old Hugo and his band of merry poon hounds pretty much shored that one up for me. God they are fucking gross.

The thing with the third wave female feminists is simply that their theory, isn’t. It’s not responsive to aggregate male behavior. It doesn’t take into consideration anything that came before. I mean, I know that young people in general have a problem with this. It’s what pisses the old people off. Young people are inexperienced and arrogant, and think everything is brand new, because they are seeing it for the first time. But all of this has happened before. The older members of the newest wave all know this, or they should. And the people who are teaching it should definitely know. But noone is talking about it, and in fact the “teachers” seem even deliberately ignorant about the history here, even though its available in books. Now, why would this be? This is not a rhetorical question.

Basically, I think academic feminism was dead on arrival, and that the short memories, coupled with all this gender nonsense was meant to breathe some life into academic feminism, as an industry. Not as a movement. Because the thing about making a living this way, is that if feminism succeeded, the academic feminists would all be out of a job. And they fucking well know it. And this piv-critical stuff is dangerous, man. It really fucking is. It’s putting us all in danger of lasting change for women, and of feminism actually succeeding. For many people, nothing could be worse.

12. nuclearnight - October 2, 2010

@FactCheckMe

Exactly. The sex pozzes have always reminded me of libertarian capitalists in sheeps clothing. The fact that on campuses (as far as I’m aware, not a student myself) there is a pretty common adherence to a kind of “feminist means women are human” philosophy in the academic community means that women are left confused and isolated from feminism and a few women (and men) get to maintain their awesome paychecks rapping about how crap everything is, but not crap enough to really do anything about.

13. Sargassosea - October 2, 2010

“…I think academic feminism was dead on arrival…”

I have to admit, naively, that I thought things would get better since my Women’s Studies days in the mid-80s. My professor at cc was a lady who was totally! enthusiastically! empowered! because her husband “agreed to babysit” while she taught her T-TH evening class, her only class… And, conversely I guess, my Women in Film prof at university nearly failed me because she assumed I had sex with men (I’m not kidding)… But, christ, at least they were WOMEN!

So, morphing it into Gender Studies just allows more paying positions for men to distort our reality? (And by men I mean born men, transmen and transwomen.) Holy fuck.

This is why radical feminist blogs and their communities are so important. Again – little glimpses of sun through the clouds.

factcheckme - October 2, 2010

I have high hopes for anonymous radfem blogging. I really do. It’s akin to self-publishing, and you don’t have to please anyone, or be profitable to have a voice. And there are no editors to change or erase your content or your delivery. I also love the convos that happen here and elsewhere, because they add so much to the discussion, and lead to other posts. You just aren’t going to get that anywhere else. Even in classes now, they are completely uninterested in real radicalism in their discussions. It’s all about drinking the kool aid. And of course, you can’t trust your teachers either. Or, you trust them because you have to, because they have power over you. Where radfem bloggers EARN their credibility, by consistently telling the truth, responding well, and making good arguments.

That’s right. I said EARNED credibility!

14. joy - October 2, 2010

“women who eschewed sexual relationships with men, even if they werent lesbians, were labelled as sexually frustrated man-haters, even though it was actually a hard-won option and was made possible by womens increasing economic opportunites that made mandatory heterosexual partnerships increasingly unnecessary.”

“they were further marginalized from “real women” who not only put up with [PIV], like they had in the past, but also began to “like it.” or you know, to pretend they did”

The funny thing that a lot of ‘liberal’, or at least secular, doods loooove to do is blame lack of lust for PIV on religious or bodily-shame hangups.

They know religion is a bunch of horseshit, so saying we have religious hangups is a quick’n’easy way to discredit our concerns.
And even as they encourage unnatural beauty standards in women, men think women stupid for worrying whether or not they adhere to them. Thus, body shame is shorthand for hysteria and female stupidity.

Because we all know if a woman can’t orgasm easily, loudly, and multiply from PIV, she has religious hangups and/or body shame issues — in other words, is a prude and/or hysterical. I mean, look at porn!!!1!

Other than the porn — This sounds far too familiar. As in, pre-WWI.

Surprise!

See?
“radfems is bitter and dont like sex!”

Teh menz, like Freud! knew it all along.

Barf.

When enjoying PIV becomes a standard upon which to judge one’s sanity, women, especially young women, have all that much more reason to make themselves like it.

15. sonia - October 3, 2010

whatever, girl. funfems can kiss my ass.

“it is an acquired taste.
It hurts you and makes you feel bad but if you keep doing it you eventually get used to it.”

hell yeah. does anyone else remember that happening? I totally remember the process..

factcheckme - October 3, 2010

I remember that I thought there was something wrong with me because it didnt feel as good as I thought it would, and I couldn’t do it for very long because it hurt. Turns out, i was allergic to latex. This was before they made polyurathane condoms. My partner very helpfully offered to fuck me without a condom. I declined. This was repeated with every partner I had for probably 5 years or so, until they started making latex free condoms that protected against stds. After that, I figured it was the lube that made it hurt. And it probably partially was. Imagine my relief at finding a partner who agreed to have monogamous sex with me, so I could get on the pill, and now hopefully it won’t hurt as much. He gave me an std, and was fucking other people on the side, and lying about it. He said he was sorry, and I kept fucking him anyway, because by that time i was in love. And it STILL didn’t feel that good. I thought maybe he just sucked in bed, and thought porn would spice things up. So I watched porn with him, and started spending money I didnt have on lingerie and sex toys. The sex toys were made of latex, and needed lube. The ugly, external vibrator is the only one i really liked, but he wasn’t into it. Big surprise, right?

And it was another 10 years and several more partners before I found any of this to be problematic. Or at least, something I could opt out of. I feel fucking sick just thinking about it.

16. mscitrus - October 3, 2010

Ugh, I totally remember it. The first time it wouldn’t go in-not a big surprise, considering I’ve never been able to get a tampon in. It hurt like hell to try, and even when it finally did happen a few times later it stung real bad. Took more than a few times for it to stop hurting, and a shitton more after that for it to feel remotely good.

“Imagine my relief at finding a partner who agreed to have monogamous sex with me, so I could get on the pill, and now hopefully it won’t hurt as much. He gave me an std, and was fucking other people on the side, and lying about it.”

Fuck I hate that shit. It seems like this is the pattern everyone goes through: use condoms for all sex—>get in supposedly monogamous relationship—>get on the pill—>stop using condoms. That guy is a total jackass. I’d wish him some STD so his dick rots off, but he’s probably still fucking women and I dun wish that on them.

“And it STILL didn’t feel that good. I thought maybe he just sucked in bed, and thought porn would spice things up. So I watched porn with him, and started spending money I didnt have on lingerie and sex toys. The sex toys were made of latex, and needed lube”

Boy do I remember this stage of my last two relationships! I remember I started wearing lingerie because he had said he wanted to fuck other people, so I felt like if I maybe acted more “sexy” and more into fucking, he wouldn’t want to be with anyone else. IDK if you had a similar thought process, FCM, cause of him cheating?

God, how sad is it, that we’re happy when sex doesn’t hurt “as much.” It’s so normal we don’t even give it a second thought, just try and hide that it hurts or if we’re crying. And dudes never notice (or pretend not to?). I still don’t get how you can not notice someone crying in the middle of sex.

17. sonia - October 3, 2010

yeah!! I remember overcoming the obstacles- trying to make it fit and not hurt for the longest time, then conquering those functional difficulties with condoms and figuring out what was going on, and having sex for YEARS before I figured out how to have “g-spot” orgasms during penetration. The way men fuck, it’s not easy. It’s like trying to grab that stupid ring on the side of the merry-g0-round: get it quick cause otherwise it ain’t going to happen.. and then it’s like, if I wasn’t having orgasms for all that time, why was I even fucking? Because Kat Hanna was singing about it? Thanks, riot grrrls. But really- I fucked for maybe the first ten years just for a sense of self, I think. What a fucking waste- like you said, FC, disease, abortion. Plus the mental detriment. It’s like every dude I bedded took another little bit of my magical 13 year old innocence away.. fucking sad. Someone should write a book about THAT process.

18. Sargassosea - October 3, 2010

This may seem like it’s way off topic, but it’s not, really.

After getting into the chapter on the frigide in Spinster and what joy and sonia had to say, trebled with your latest this morning, FCM, I wanted to remind myself of the definition of “agoraphobia”.

This is the first thing that came up, http://www.bing.com/health/article/mayo-126569/Agoraphobia?q=agoraphobia&qpvt=agoraphobia, and it was so ironically (and hilariously?) fitting that I just had to share. For just one example, it seems “being female” is a Risk Factor!

Fucking, DUH, motherfuckers.

factcheckme - October 3, 2010

yes, “being female” is a risk factor for a lot of things. which really means that female reality is much different than male reality, but they never frame it this way do they? male is normal, anything other than male is abnormal. check. even when men are CAUSING these things in women. we are the defectives for, like, knowing about it, or responding to it, in any way.

19. joy - October 3, 2010

“it’s like, if I wasn’t having orgasms for all that time, why was I even fucking? Because Kat Hanna was singing about it? Thanks, riot grrrls.”

Ha! But in Hanna’s defense, even she’s figured out that she was kinda wrong, that PIV and dudes ain’t the shit, and in 1999 wrote that she was (basically) becoming a separatist (although she didn’t use that term).

Though she’s married to that one dude, so I don’t know how well that’s working out for her. If she even held to it.

“But really- I fucked for maybe the first ten years just for a sense of self, I think. What a fucking waste- like you said, FC, disease, abortion.”

Yeah, me too. All that you wrote.

Women aren’t presented with options unless we go looking for them, and the best option (ie, radical feminism/separatism) has such a bad rap that it takes true bravery to get past the bullshit and uncover the truth about it.

It’s like, once you renounce regressivism/conservatism (if it was even ever an issue for you), your options are either … uh … liberal nonfeminism, or fun-feminism, or just fucking without ‘politics’ in mind. It takes research and determination and often a whole lot of shit-for-luck to get to the point of radical feminism.

“Plus the mental detriment. It’s like every dude I bedded took another little bit of my magical 13 year old innocence away.. fucking sad. Someone should write a book about THAT process.”

Heh. You wanna make it a joint project? I’m so fucking ready to write about it, but am afraid it would come out too self-indulgent and awful.

Although that’s a fear women are taught to have, isn’t it? All kinds of dudes write self-indulgent drivel, and it doesn’t even have a point. Look at all the supposedly “great” American authors. Mailer, Roth, Kerouac … all a bunch of pointless assholery forever committed to the page, for no reason.
But a woman writes something that has a point, and she’s a self-indulgent whiner, or too confessionary, or whatever. Another issue I do a lot of thinking about.

20. joy - October 3, 2010

“even when men are CAUSING these things in women. we are the defectives for, like, knowing about it, or responding to it, in any way.”

Yeah, no shit. Women are always at fault for everything.

For being with men or not being with men. For not having orgasms. For having or not having sex. For getting pregnant or not getting pregnant. For aborting or not aborting. For raising or not raising children. For working or not working. For getting raped. For being born in the first place.

And men wonder why we fucking hate them. Why we resent them. Any normal, thinking person would. I think the ones who don’t resent, who aren’t angry on some level (or claim they’re not, or claim we shouldn’t be) are the ones who are abnormal.

21. girl - October 3, 2010

@joy “But a woman writes something that has a point, and she’s a self-indulgent whiner, or too confessionary, or whatever. Another issue I do a lot of thinking about.”

i notice that when female college professors dress ~unfashionably~ it’s because they’re frumpy and unattractive etc. every little bit of their wardrobe is criticized. but when male college professors dress in something besides nicely pressed pants, shirt, dress shoes and tie it’s because they’re eccentric or different, and it’s totally ok because they’re a college professor. it’s just a different name for the same fucking thing.

22. FemmeForever - October 3, 2010

“Women are always at fault for everything.

For being with men or not being with men. For not having orgasms. For having or not having sex. For getting pregnant or not getting pregnant. For aborting or not aborting. For raising or not raising children. For working or not working. For getting raped. For being born in the first place. ”

Can I have this on a t-shirt please? Or maybe on business cards that I can hand out to the world. You know, like those little pamphlets with bible verses on them.

By the way don’t forget:

for being too fat and being too skinny

for being too smart and being too stupid

for having too much confidence and having too little

for being too funny and being humorless

ad infinitem

23. sonia - October 4, 2010

@Joy-

I’m DOWN. let me know if u want to email. Adolescent sexual trauma in girls is of the utmost interest and a project would be a great excuse to research plus I love a good collaboration.

“Though she’s married to that one dude, so I don’t know how well that’s working out for her”

LOL. efuckinzackly.

24. joy - October 4, 2010

@girl:

“it’s just a different name for the same fucking thing.”

Yeah! Dudes, unless they’re hipsters or metrosexuals, tend to look like a fucking wreck all the time. Schlubby. Baggy pants. Unwashed hair. Stubble. They’re just bros, man. It’s cool. Women aren’t visually oriented anyway, science, like, says so — so, like, they’re totes gonna get laid, their girlfriends are high maintenance shrewish bitches if they complain, and no prob.

Let a woman wear baggy pants and a dirty tank top, stop washing her hair and shaving, and OH NO! She has let herself go. She’s unfuckable and a monstrosity. All men, including men she is not partnered with and not interested in, as a matter of fact random strangers, are all obligated to remind her that she’s fallen out of lockstep. Total social ostracization if she fails to crack out that razor and the makeup kit posthaste. The hag.

Oh, and beer bellies on women are a huge no-no. And “cellulite.”

(I have and love my beer gut. It lets me know my priorities are still in line, if that makes sense.)

25. joy - October 4, 2010

@FemmeForever:

“Can I have this on a t-shirt please? Or maybe on business cards that I can hand out to the world. You know, like those little pamphlets with bible verses on them.”

Go for it. Please.

@Sonia:

I can be reached at (I suggest copy-pasting):

edj.uv.reason@gmail.com

26. berryblade - October 4, 2010

Well I’m late on to the new post wagon boo :(

First things first, thank you again for another brilliant post FCM! And thank you for some more valuable scans. It’s strange you know, after all these years I never knew Florence Nightingale was a Spinster, although, it was always in the back of my mind and is a pretty nifty thing to confirm.

It’s also pretty crazy that this whole “enthusiastic consent” crap has come out before (and I’m sure it will again.) I totally agree with you, radical feminist blogging has a load of potential because you still get some degree of peer-reviewing, so that your work might even get constructive criticism at some point.

Sonia,

I’ve never met a radical feminist who just was anti-orgasm.

Me neither, funnily enough.

Ms.Citrus,

I totally used to be able to do this! After porn and fucking men, though, no dice anymore.

Me too, well, since not looking at porn for over a year now, I’ve found that this ability does slowly come back, which is pretty nifty :) kinda like how smokers lungs can actually repair some of the damage that cigarettes have done when enough distance is created between last cigarette + present.

Girl,

I’ve noticed this too, which is what started to put me off about the pro-pornie movement. That and the alarming number of men and boys who like to post on sites like Feministing. They act like the way these womyn behaved occurred in a vacuum and had no context at all, but I suppose, then again, that’s what they love to do.

Joy,

I used to have a bit of a soft spot for KH but it’s all but gone now. Every single girl in my WS tute last semester idolised her and breast implants and pornography. To me it seems that the three seem to go hand in hand. They should listen to more Otep Shamaya – lesbian (who I think might be a closet radfem) who has a song called “Menocide”, which says it all really ;)

Sonia + Joy

About the teenage girl statements, I have a couple of pieces of research I’ve saved over the years which says something like one in three teenage girls experiences “unwanted sex” (RAPE) which matches up with adult population etc, and I think it had some teenage boys attitudes on it if you’re interested?

27. Bob-I need to be a TRAITOR to my Sex - October 4, 2010

From Sonia Johnson’s just published,brilliant and much-needed book The SisterWitch Conspiracy.Here’s a nice comment on fun-fem empowerfullizingment, pp. 49-50:
“Typically, however, the eviscerated term ‘empowerment’ is now used when speaking of women instead of ‘power’-the word with power. Empowerment, like religion, is an external application, some leader or someone outside ourselves ‘enabling’ or ‘permitting’ or ‘giving’ or ‘teaching’ us self-esteem, self-confidence, etc. These are good qualities to develop; so are all the others that such leaders and classes teach.
But the use of the term ‘empowerment’ subliminally tells every woman who hears it-because language is symbol- that regardless of how strong and good we learn to feel about ourselves, these feelings are not power; it tells us that as womenwe are not inherently powerful-like men, who are seldom, if ever, recipients of ‘empowerment’ efforts. It brainwashes us to perceive ourselves and other females as needing external assistance-i.e. as powerless in ourselves.”

factcheckme - October 4, 2010

huh? ok, i havent read the book, but from that snippet i think i can pretty much figure out whats going on. this author is telling us that, in her estimation, womens “feelings” of “strong” and “good” really ARE power. or that they are reflective of womens real, actual power. and that the only problem with fun-fem empowerfulization rhetoric is that it brainwashes us into thinking that we ARENT really powerful. because we are. because we “FEEL” like we are. well at least…the ones of us who do feel powerful, really are. the ones that dont feel powerful…well i guess they really arent? or are they powerful too, despite their feelings?

what a load of shit! and sorry “bob” but you arent really being much of a traitor here, although you have revealed quite a lot. another man reveals that he cant even fucking read, and contributes nothing to the discussion. how embarassing for him.

28. Level Best - October 4, 2010

“Also, females can give ourselves orgasms just by *thinking* about it; no physical stimulation is necessary.”–Mary Sunshine

I just saw a segment on TV called “Thinking Off,” about this very thing. The woman who teaches thinking off workshops was put in an MRI machine by doctors (neurologists, I would think)and the brain scans proved she was experiencing an orgasm with no physical stimulation taking place. I thought this was pretty astonishing.

fcm the conversations here continue to amaze me. Back in the day groups of women met for consciousness-raising sessions and basically became much healthier beings by learning each others’ experiences and thus confirming their own suspicions about the toxicity of worldwide patriarchy and its enforcement and distortions. This is even better, because you’ve got women from all over the world participating here.

And nobody has to bring a potluck item, yay!

29. Bob-I need to be a TRAITOR to my Sex - October 4, 2010

Sonia Johnson criticizes the same fun-fems as you do and gives a good account of how this talk of empowerment feeds into and supports the continuation of patriarchy. She does not criticize the same women that you wouldn’t criticize-she does not blame the victim.She makes it very clear that she does not consider any woman or girl who is a victim of male violence (and she says numerous times throughout the book that it’s of the utmost importance to always name it MALE violence against females so that the agent of the violence is never deleted or obscured-she even calls it “mensworld” instead of “patriarchy” to keep the actual agent clearly out in the open) to be in ANY way guilty of or deserving of such violence.
It’s a good book well worth reading.

30. joy - October 4, 2010

“To me it seems that the three seem to go hand in hand.”

Oh, they do.

“They should listen to more Otep Shamaya – lesbian (who I think might be a closet radfem) who has a song called “Menocide”, which says it all really ;)”

Indeed! Menocide for all.

Also, bring on the research. My email’s above.

Consider that my potluck item. ;)

factcheckme - October 4, 2010

well holy fucking christ on a popstick, bob! i better get right on that then. she criticises the same people i do. she doesnt criticise anyone i wouldnt. that means we are totally on the same page. right? god. what was it i was saying about men just parrotting back other peoples ideas without really understanding them?

again, i havent read the book, but the snipet you posted is probably enough. i do not think it means what you think it means. try again. and stop posting here. thanks.

31. sonia - October 4, 2010

@berryblade- cool. that would be great :)

@joy- sounds good, I’ll email u this week.

does anyone know good source material for this topic? All that comes to mind is a little lite, a la Reviving Ophelia.

salopesmack@gmail.com

32. joy - October 4, 2010

Also, re, faking it:

Dudes get SO. MAD. if they ever find out a woman has been or is faking it.

Mad at the woman, of course. They don’t ever wonder what the actual problem could be. Just “she lied to me!1!!1 she is teh evul bitch!!!11111!!”

Guys don’t really seem to understand any sexual response, other than over-the-top pronified screaming and moaning, though, so I wonder what they expect. Honestly. What do they fucking expect?

factcheckme - October 4, 2010

i have been imagining what some of them must be thinking, with this PIV-critical stuff. i know they know that women have been faking it forever (well maybe just since the first-wave was smashed by PIV-pos enthusiasm rhetoric?) but do they really get it? (HA! as if.) do they get that it just doesnt feel that good for some 90% of women? and that the women have to act like it does? that all the hyper-orgasmic women in porn are ACTING? that all the female orgasms on television and mainstream movies are fake too?

that probably 99% of the female orgasms they (or we!) THINK they have heard, are really just women PRETENDING that they are enjoying and/or orgasming from PIV? this is kind of astounding when you think about it.

i actually do orgasm from PIV, although that wasnt always the case. and i have never faked an orgasm, although i have absolutely pornified my feelings of arousal and pleasure up to that point, even if i didnt come.

its also so rarely the full-body orgasm that other acts can bring on. do men understand that either? (HA! as if. again.) there are shallow orgasms, and deep orgasms. and PIV is usually a shallow one for me. but as long as i “come” at all then hes a fucking genius, right? even though he has put me at risk for pregnancy, and it wasnt even the deep orgasm i couldve given myself, if he had just gone to sleep and left me alone. or like the one i DO end up giving myself anyway, after hes asleep. when i am all wet and sweaty and sore, and hoping my birth control worked.

33. joy - October 4, 2010

Gah! FCM, what you just wrote sounds way too familiar.

“do they get that it just doesnt feel that good for some 90% of women? and that the women have to act like it does? that all the hyper-orgasmic women in porn are ACTING? that all the female orgasms on television and mainstream movies are fake too?”

They have no idea. If they think of it at all, it’s in terms of how deficient women are.

And then they decide it’s psychological, because we all must be hysterical and/or religious. Yep. That’s it.

“that probably 99% of the female orgasms they (or we!) THINK they have heard, are really just women PRETENDING that they are enjoying and/or orgasming from PIV? this is kind of astounding when you think about it.”

Yeah, dude. It makes me actually sad. Plus sick and repulsed.

34. sonia - October 4, 2010

FCM, I’m also one of those rare women who orgasms off PIV> I actually believe that all women are highly capable of insane amounts of pleasure from PIV, but 2 things:

-patriarchy has made PIV a power dynamic which will always be socially and emotionally abusive within patriarchy, not because of the nature of PIV, but because of the nature of patriarchy

-dudes are trained to get pleasure in an outlaw way from PIV. the way they are taught to fuck is not pleasurable. you have to ride a level above their rythmn to get your orgasm, and you better be damn good and it will ALWAYS be that way until men aren’t patriarchy-trained to have abusive sex.

In other words, patriarchy ruined PIV for women and that’s why the social aspect of feminism has to come before PIV is liberated. Because men tacked a social meaning onto PIV that allowed them to subjugate women, PIV can’t be liberated without a prior complete social liberation of female subjugation.

Funfems be backasswards, yo.

factcheckme - October 4, 2010

Until theres no such thing as an unwanted pregnancy though, the fear and stress involved in piv for women are going to get in the way of the pleasure. Of course, men like to call our legitimate fear and stress response that blocks pleasure for us “psychological problems” but when has labeling women’s legitimate fear and stress responses “crazy” ever cured us of fear and stress? Never, that’s when. It cures men of having to give a flying fuck, thats all. And none of this is any kind of a turn on, at all. Pretty much the polar opposite.

There are literally millions of reasons that so many women can’t come from piv. Many of them have tails, and can swim. The others are legitimate too.

factcheckme - October 4, 2010

Also liking what you said about outlaw piv, and abusive sex. Care to elaborate on that? In intercourse, Dworkin described having piv without the thrusting, and speculated that it would be an improvement over what we have now. My first thought: still gonna knock you up though!

35. sonia - October 5, 2010

I think it’s like, patriarchy is an outlaw system. It’s an order atop the natural order, no matter how much it protests to BE the natural order. It is a layer above reality, possibly the foreground Daly refers to. Men’s reality is built on women. Men’s pleasure is an experience over top of the experience of women. Everything, and especially male-centric PIV, is at the expense of women. It can’t exist without something to derive from. Men derived from women derive their pleasure as quickly as they can in women before we come, before we enjoy. It’s almost like their rythmn is timed against ours, on purpose. I don’t think the pleasure of patriarchy could exist without women’s pain. I don’t think they could feel that kind of pleasure while giving it- it is a specific pleasure, patriarchal PIV orgasmic pleasure, that is necessarily inclusive of sadism. It is pleasurable because it hurts women. It feels better emotionally for them to pull out outlaw-style and GET AWAY with it, because that’s what patriarchy is. Males are getting away with as much as they can against nature and women before they get their asses kicked. I don’t get why.

factcheckme - October 5, 2010

wow i totally need to read daly! i have a few books on my shelf, just havent gotten to them yet.

36. sonia - October 5, 2010

Without Pure Lust I would still be in my abusive relationship. That woman was amazing :)

37. mscitrus - October 5, 2010

“Men derived from women derive their pleasure as quickly as they can in women before we come, before we enjoy. It’s almost like their rythmn is timed against ours, on purpose.”

D: This is so totally true, holy crap. My mind is just blown. That’s how I always felt, but was never able to put it into words!

I think me and my nigel had PIV without thrusting when we did have it? It was more just a pushing without any real in-and-out, if I remember right? (It’s been forever since we did so I could be remembering it wrong.) Whatever we did it made us always come together. Still problematic for the reasons FCM said tho, of course.

38. thebewilderness - October 5, 2010

That particular fake orgasm scene in the film “When Harry met Sally” was a nasty shock for men. They appear to have recovered without significant damage to their psyches as a result of their brief encounter with the truth. No wonder they don’t like “chick flicks”.

39. berryblade - October 5, 2010

Dudes get SO. MAD. if they ever find out a woman has been or is faking it.

Mad at the woman, of course. They don’t ever wonder what the actual problem could be. Just “she lied to me!1!!1 she is teh evul bitch!!!11111!!”

And of course, as you mentioned, the inability to realise when an orgasm has taken place or is about to take place. The Seinfeld episode “The Mango” springs to mind here.

that probably 99% of the female orgasms they (or we!) THINK they have heard, are really just women PRETENDING that they are enjoying and/or orgasming from PIV? this is kind of astounding when you think about it.

Yet another reason why I <3 these comment threads. I've never even thought of everything like this, but it is so blatant and in your face that I don't think many people would. It's pretty fucking crazy + disappointing + disgusting, when you really think about it. Do they even *care* if womyn orgasm or not? As in, do they genuinely care if their partner is satisfied as well, or is it just caring about your own sexual ability? I would be willing to bet the latter, rather than the former.

Sonia,

I think it’s like, patriarchy is an outlaw system. It’s an order atop the natural order, no matter how much it protests to BE the natural order. It is a layer above reality, possibly the foreground Daly refers to. Men’s reality is built on women. Men’s pleasure is an experience over top of the experience of women. Everything, and especially male-centric PIV, is at the expense of women. It can’t exist without something to derive from. Men derived from women derive their pleasure as quickly as they can in women before we come, before we enjoy. It’s almost like their rythmn is timed against ours, on purpose. I don’t think the pleasure of patriarchy could exist without women’s pain. I don’t think they could feel that kind of pleasure while giving it- it is a specific pleasure, patriarchal PIV orgasmic pleasure, that is necessarily inclusive of sadism. It is pleasurable because it hurts women. It feels better emotionally for them to pull out outlaw-style and GET AWAY with it, because that’s what patriarchy is. Males are getting away with as much as they can against nature and women before they get their asses kicked. I don’t get why.

This is just. Oh, so, oh wow. It’s A-Mazing, it’s perfect, it’s spot on.

factcheckme - October 5, 2010

YES bewilderness! here ya go:

factcheckme - October 5, 2010

i say we have our consciousness raising group here, in katz’s deli. no potlucks, yuck. we are all busy modern women afterall. and i have food allergies. right here, home of the best (only?) fake orgasm scene evarr. you know, where we were supposed to understand that it was fake. i’ll have the corned beef!

40. joy - October 5, 2010

“And of course, as you mentioned, the inability to realise when an orgasm has taken place or is about to take place. The Seinfeld episode “The Mango” springs to mind here.”

I saw that episode once in a laundromat. It made me want to, more than ever, reach through the screen and punch Jerry Seinfeld. He was so smug and self-righteously clueless the whole time.

It blows my mind. I think almost 100 percent of female orgasm during intercourse is faked. I’ve been able to orgasm from PIV with two out of the (I think) fifteen partners I’ve had — and they fucking well knew when I did. Because, you know, you can feel it! The vaginal walls constrict and shudder. If I’m using my own hand, I can feel it on my hand, so …
Either most men’s dicks are more insensate than their hands, or they have never felt a genuine female orgasm.

For the other thirteen or so, I didn’t even have to fake a Katz Deli style finale. Just pronify up my actual enjoyment (or fake the lack thereof). They didn’t even care if I “came.” As long as I was moving around and making some sort of sound — and a few of them didn’t care about that either. Basically, their requirements seemed to be, as long as I wasn’t lying there obviously dissociating and wishing I was somewhere else. Because that would have made THEM feel like rapists! And it’s all about how THEY feel.

Until recently, when I truly grokked radical feminism and started actualizing it in my life, I didn’t even realize I was technically “faking it.” I’d thought I was performing a necessary task for the poor clueless men whose feelings might be so hurt if I didn’t.
Which was pretty much how, at the very root of it, I thought about sex itself. So it logically follows.

If I try to talk about this (the male lack of giving-a-shit about female sexual pleasure) honestly with men or men-identified women, they like to say this was my fault. “Well, you should have spoken up! Maybe he would have been more considerate!”
Right. Because a man who will keep fucking a woman even if he doesn’t really know if she likes it or not, will really respond positively if he finds out she doesn’t.

41. joy - October 5, 2010

“is it just caring about your own sexual ability? I would be willing to bet the latter, rather than the former.”

I agree. Did you read the thread at ND’s where everyone had a lightbulb moment: dudes don’t even like sex, they just like notching their belts and bragging about it to their bros later?

FCM’s long figured out that dudes don’t even like sex, but watching other people come to that conclusion independently was awesome.

And, totally, sonia. As usual, what you said? Yeah.

factcheckme - October 5, 2010

yep. they dont like sex. not at all. see “men are sexual beings” for more on that.

also, “women of ideas and what men have done to them” arrived today. and holy fucking crap what a huge book! its 756 pages long. cost more to ship than for the book itsself, but thats true of even the skinniest of books. cant wait to read it!

and THANK GOD dale spender is a woman. heh. i was wondering about that.

42. Sargassosea - October 5, 2010

I’ve been reading along and have been rather unpleasantly revisiting the past (BOO as berry blade says ) so, I’ll suffice it to say to the thoughts and testimonies here: witness!

Also, some study* came out on American ‘sex habits’ (the first in 15 years! or something) – the little bits of the ’results’ I heard on the tv this morning were kind of (totally) horrifying in light of the discussions going on.

But the Big News is that womyn are “faking it!”. Barf.

*couldn’t quickly find a link to said study, but google will direct you to many, many sites where the doods feign surprise!!11!

43. DarthVelma - October 5, 2010

I keep seeing posts about that study on various “feminst” sites. I particularly love this little tidbit:

“The survey also revealed an interesting discrepancy: 85 percent of men report their partner had an orgasm during their last sexual encounter, meanwhile, only 64 percent of women report having had an orgasm. The researchers say this difference is too large to be explained by some men having male partners.”

I’m not sure I really believe that 64 percent number, either, unless women were including taking care of themselves after their male partner rolled over and fell asleep. *rolls eyes*

factcheckme - October 5, 2010

this is a song by ani difranco about…how harmless male sexuality is, and how men would never sexually harm a fly! (not.) i have heard this happening in real life SO MANY TIMES. theres something about guys, cars, and taking their dicks out. its a fucking epidemic. also, i was assaulted by a pack of neighborhood boys when i was 4 or 5. i have mentioned that here before, i think on the “fallacy of cis privilege” thread.

the video isnt really a video; its just the song set to an image. lyrics below.

me and all the kids from the neighborhood
we played out on the street all summer long
rule was we had to go home at night when the street lights came on
we were oblivious to the rest of the world
and we’d hold up the cars in the street
and we’d always play boys against girls and both sides would cheat

strange men would stop their cars at the curb
and say “hey, sweetheart, come here”
i’d go up to the window and they’d have their dick out in their hand
and a sick little sneer

i’d say, “here we go again.
yeah, ok, this time you win”
and i would feel dirty and i’d feel ashamed
but i wouldn’t let it stop my game

we would play hide and go seek
and territory would be the whole block
sometimes the older boys when they’d find you
they wouldn’t want to tag you they’d just wanna “talk”
they’d say “what would you do for a quarter?
come on, we don’t have that much time”
then i’d think for a minute and say,”ok, give me the quarter first… fine”

this time you win
here we go again
and i would feel dirty and I would feel ashamed
but i wouldn’t let it stop my game

i remember my first trip alone on a greyhound bus
a man put his hands on me as soon as night fell
i remember when i was leaving, how excited i was
i remember when i arrived i didn’t feel so well
i remember the teacher at school that got me so sick, so scared
that i went into the bathroom and i threw up in my hair
and i could go on but you know what, it just gets worse
and i should probably stop there

girl, next time he wants to know what your problem is
girl, next time he wants to know where the anger comes from
just tell him this time the problem’s his
tell him the anger
just comes
it just comes

44. mscitrus - October 5, 2010

If anyone has a link to the full study, I’d love to read it. I found something depressing (and unsurprising) tho.

“One-third of women experienced genital pain during their most recent sex, compared with 5 percent of men, said Herbenick, citing this as an area warranting study.”

Oh yes, it warrents study. It does NOT, however, warrent men keeping their dicks away from us until they know what the hell to do. Also assuming they mean sex as intercourse. Nice job sexologists, who are oh-so-tolerant and “objective.”

“Until recently, when I truly grokked radical feminism and started actualizing it in my life, I didn’t even realize I was technically “faking it.” I’d thought I was performing a necessary task for the poor clueless men whose feelings might be so hurt if I didn’t.
Which was pretty much how, at the very root of it, I thought about sex itself. So it logically follows.”

Joy, I am just going to keep quoting you and expressing that I went through the exact same thing and that you speak the truth. I too thought it was just part of sex, because how else would men feel good about it?

factcheckme - October 5, 2010

Women are still faking it. And men still don’t know, or don’t care, and are continuing to place women in harms way through piv, when its not even enjoyable for so many women. And the study didn’t even ask, of course, whether ANY of the women thought it was worth it, whether they orgasmed or not. Because as several of us keep saying, we CAN orgasm from piv, but so fucking what? It’s just an orgasm. It doesnt make piv any less dangerous.

45. DarthVelma - October 5, 2010

I think this is the link you want, mscitrus

http://www.nationalsexstudy.indiana.edu/

46. mscitrus - October 5, 2010

Thank you Velma! :D I wish I could just download it but I’m sure they’re worried about me using the data for nefarious purposes. BTW I agree with you 64% seems too high, considering previous studies. Perhaps they’re counting the orgasms “nice guys” give women before intercourse in “foreplay”?

I like how no one asks WHY women fake it-it’s just acknowledged that it happens. You know, like, possibly so that it’s over faster. I know that’s why I did it.

Rates of heterosexual anal intercourse seem to have doubled, if you compare the rates of “anal intercourse in the past year” from this study with those from the one in 1994. Some other study I found also noted that anal sex was most common among higher socioeconomic classes and whites.

Unsurprisingly, they didn’t ask if men had anal stimulation from means other than a dick. (ie with a female thru the use of a strapon or something.) The only anal behavior surveyed for women is “receiving a penis in the anus.”

Also, apparently around 40% of condom users make the “error” of starting *sex* (intercourse) WITHOUT a condom? Buh? I can’t comprehend how anyone could do that, because it kinda defeats the point…

I’m guessing the “partnered masturbation” they refer to in the study refers to any behavior other than oral and intercourse? Like if a guy just touches your clit? I can’t ctrl+f on their stupid document.

That song is really good, FCM.

47. SheilaG - October 6, 2010

I think the numbers of women faking it are way too low. Several reasons women fake it:
1. They want the man off her body.
2. Women fake lots of stuff all the time… I see hetero women faking having fun with men, I see them cringing inwardly when men say sexist comments that they are too cowardly to confront.
3. Hetero women fake how they really look–make-up, face lifts etc.
4. I’d say that all of hetero life as we know it is pretty fake.
5. There is something really creepy in the blank, bland looks that hetero women fake, because they might not even know that they are faking life itself to fit in with heteronormative role playing.

6. Women are afraid to not fake with men, because the man could rape her, or get angry, or dump her, so she has to “please’ the man by acting.

Hetero life is horrifying and dreadful!

factcheckme - October 6, 2010

Was hoping you’d stop by Sheila. And the thought of faking LIFE ITSELF is exactly right on. Just, yes.

48. SheilaG - October 6, 2010

That’s the true horror of seeing women in the world. It is hard to imagine what life would really be for women if patriarchy ended tomorrow, but I believe all of us would be unrecognizable.

And that men want women fake ultimately shows how cruel, evil, and simeon they are. It means that men create fake, they fake their macho lives to brag in front of other men, the fake their “sexual conquests” they fake their ability to even make women happy.

Men create the fake world, the artificial world, the destruction of nature and imitation world.
We have destroyed nature so that men could make fake plants, fake trees, fake women(MTFs), and artifical flavorings… to name a few thing that the ultimate fakers of life do.

49. thebewilderness - October 6, 2010

I don’t think pretense, or faking, if you will, is exclusive to het females.
More of an early childhood conditioning self preservation thingummy.

50. MAD - October 6, 2010

Re empowerment: my impression was that the quote was about the meaning of the word empowerment, which is that power is given (by someone else). So it implies that women are dependent on others to receive power.

factcheckme - October 6, 2010

Implies?

51. MAD - October 6, 2010

I don’t really understand your question, but I think it’s like the quote says: even when we feel, or are, powerful, the use of words like this tells us that actually it is not real power, because it was given. So yes, brainwashing women into feeling powerless while talking about power for women. Or rather, in those contexts, mostly talking about women feeling more confident in their female role, not about getting any real power.
‘Empowering’ is not about the kind of power that men have, over others or from others.

52. Sargassosea - October 6, 2010

Quoting Bob, quoting S Johnson’s new book (I’ve not read it either) “’It [the word/concept “empowerment“] brainwashes us to perceive ourselves and other females as needing external assistance-i.e. as powerless in ourselves.’”

It says that we’ve been brainwashed to believe that we are “powerless in ourselves“.

Hey, guess what? After the brainwashing wears off? There’s still no power. Because, you know, if there was we wouldn’t be here talking about the fake/outlaw ‘reality‘ we‘re forced to live in and dodge and try to pick up after. It’d be DONE, already and we’d be living in some semblance of fucking PEACE for a change!

A wise womon said to me just yesterday, “There is no happiness for us; there is only stress and relief from it.” And it is oh, so easy to replace ‘happiness’ with power or peace or freedom or safety or autonomy or any other Human Right and have it be 1000% true.

53. Sargassosea - October 6, 2010

Total fist-pumps to Sonia and SheilaG for hatching the Fake/Outlaw Reality Theory!

Far out, Sheros!

factcheckme - October 6, 2010

someone facebooked this post. anyone want to fess up? and…is there a discussion about it going on somewhere? i got rid of my fb account. just couldnt get the hang of it.

factcheckme - October 6, 2010

regarding spinsters, and the folks who started calling/assuming them to be lesbians (and further marginalizing lesbians of course) i am reminded of the massive clusterfuck that became the comments thread over on the “intercourse part 3″ post. i dont think anyone, except the few of us who really may just be spinsters ourselves, could imagine the possibility that there are women out there who eschew het relationships (or PIV) but ARENT interested in having intimate relationships (either emotionally or physically) with other women. i think the spinster concept is exactly what we needed. yay books!

54. joy - October 6, 2010

“mostly talking about women feeling more confident in their female role, not about getting any real power.”

That’s a good point!

Suddenly it makes sense. People who jaw on about “empowerment!!1!!” are not talking about gaining any actual power in the worldly sense.

They’re talking about women feeling better about acting fake!

Which they may or may not ALSO believe, in a brainwashy ’50s-housewife way, is actual female power.

Most of these people are gender essentialists and pomos anyway, right, who believe that gender is a thing in one’s brain as opposed to a social construct. So it makes sense.

(Somewhere on another blog, someone compared gender to American political parties — you’re only ‘allowed’ to choose from two, and it’s definitely externally reinforced.
It would be ridiculous to imagine that Republicanism or being a Democrat was inborn, although as a lifelong ‘third partyer’ I’m surprised someone hasn’t tried to advance that argument yet.)

More about fake in a moment. I’ve been toying with splitting comments up to keep them from getting overlong.

55. joy - October 6, 2010

On fake:

Yes, dudes love fake. The current social structure was built by dudes, dudes name the rules, and it’s all entirely built upon fake. From the ground up.

I’ve noticed fakeness since I was a little kid. For example:

My family’s etiquette rules were bullshit, everyone was supposed to act nice even though they stabbed each other in the back constantly and hated each other; and I had to learn how to use two different forks even though we lived one step above a trailer and didn’t have hot water.
There’s class fakeness, and people eat that shit up with a spoon. People love status items and manners training and all that kind of shit, so they can squabble and compete over who has the best, in true capitalist fashion.

Going to school is one of the fakest things ever: in America it was created to produce new generations of homogenized industrial workers. The way adults treated us and taught us to act was totally hollow and borderline abusive. The way kids took this out on each other was vicious.

(Not to mention, I grew up on the cusp of the video-game generation. Until I was about 7 or 8, only rich kids or uber-tech-nerds had video games, or even computers at home. I can remember realizing, slowly, that I was the only child who ever played outside. Then I went over to someone’s house, and found that everyone else was playing Super Mario. I never had friends before then, and afterwards I NEVER had friends.)

Then add in the forced compliance with gender roles that are totally fake; the consumerist demands that we choose from among totally hollow and fake ‘lifestyles’ , then buy a whole lot of appropriate gadgetry and costumes to fit the bill; the reduction of potentially powerful political ideas into two virtually identical sets of superficial talking points; I could go on.

People who resist the training are not taken to kindly. I always resisted the ‘training.’ (Other than a time period when I was thirteen to fifteen and wanted a boyfriend; the time from fifteen to nineteen where I nearly starved myself to death; and the time from nineteen to twenty-one where I was a hipster; and even then I was never all that good at any of it — I dressed quirky, talked too smart, wore my hair un-femmy, went to serious siege-war-style protests, etc.) My mother is still convinced, to this day, that I have autism, because “I just don’t ‘get’ it,” ‘it’ being social conventions.

Fact is, I “get” it, I “get” it all too well. I reject it. At least as much as I can. I’d like to think that if patriarchy ended tomorrow, I’d be much the same as I am now — just get super happy and start going outside more often — although I could be totally wrong.

My ultimate point is that fakeness has to be trained. The fact that people are still trying to put forth an idea of “empowerment” that actually translates to “feeling comfortable in your externally imposed gender role” is proof that this shit is fake fake fake and women, even those who aren’t radical feminists, have the instinct to resist it tooth and nail.

It’s that cognitive dissonance. That little voice saying, ‘This is wrong.’ Every time she paints a nail or does some shitbag’s laundry or weighs herself compulsively after sweating bullets and starving herself. ‘This is wrong!’ So she needs a dressed-up, pinkified (or burlesquified, or even zombified like ms.c wrote about) bill of pseudo-empowerment to make herself feel better.

And even then, she must keep it up, must spout off on it all over funfem blogs on the internet and try to derail radical feminists who say ‘actually, that’s bullshit and you’re eating it like chocolate” — because, especially in the absence of the pseudo-empowerment rhetoric, the doubt will still eat her alive.

factcheckme - October 6, 2010

the thing about “fake” and artificial anything is that its consumerist. you literally have to go outside yourself to find it, and you almost always have to BUY it. knowing that we are making less than men are, and spending money on things they dont, always translated into “cognitive dissonnance” for me. i told my mom about this when i was in college: that the thought of buying a $5 lipstick, to me, translated into an hour of work that i hated, and that i wouldnt have to do, if i just didnt buy it. she told me i would drive myself nuts if i thought about it like that, and very helpfully gave me another way to think about it (basically, just dont).

it also really wasnt true: if i didnt buy the $5 lipstick, its not like i could skip an hour of work. i worked full time, and full time is full time. i could save the $5 but whats $5 really? then i would feel deprived, like i was working for nothing. small “indulgences” women and poor people grant themselves fuel entire industries. this is deliberate.

and as far as buying fake accessories to make yourself more fuckable…then faking enjoyment or orgasm from fucking itself…thats the fake icing on the fake cake isnt it? but the consequences are real enough. for women, not for men. birth control, pregnancy, stds, medical events, trauma bonding…and we are supposed to fake those too, and pretend they arent happening, or that we dont know where they are coming from. it is very much like an alternate reality. only, no matter how completely any woman “buys” into it, she knows better. that little pill she takes every day to mitigate the effects of PIV, is more real than anything any man ever does, or will ever do. men live on another fucking planet. they really fucking do.

56. joy - October 6, 2010

“you literally have to go outside yourself to find it, and you almost always have to BUY it.”

Exactly, and that is completely on purpose too. Capitalism, which I imagine is an entity, is sitting back rubbing its hands. And its huge, swollen belly. Into which I imagine has been poured all of humanity’s crushed dreams and thwarted aspirations.

“knowing that we are making less than men are, and spending money on things they dont, always translated into “cognitive dissonnance” for me. [...]
she told me i would drive myself nuts if i thought about it like that, and very helpfully gave me another way to think about it (basically, just dont).”

Which is how it gets perpetuated. So many people just don’t even think about it, and/or are encouraged not to think about it, that it keeps going as if on its own.

“small “indulgences” women and poor people grant themselves fuel entire industries. this is deliberate.”

As a lifelong woman and lifelong poor person, I can vouch for that.

When you’re at the bottom tier of society, you realize that not even getting rich would solve any problems. Sure, saving up some extra money might mean better dwellings (ie, better apartments in better neighborhoods), less deprivation (in terms of having warm clothes for winter and cool clothes for summer, type thing), etc, … but you’re still going to have a boot on your neck and be a capitalist slave by working.

But you’re right, you can’t just NOT WORK if you don’t spend the money. The only real way out is to stop working, but unless you can get on welfare and have a low standard of living (like I did and do), that isn’t appealing for most people.

In a just world, people could have their basic needs accounted for. But this is not a just world. It’s a world built on capitalism, thus competition, and necessarily suffering.

“and as far as buying fake accessories to make yourself more fuckable…then faking enjoyment or orgasm from fucking itself…thats the fake icing on the fake cake isnt it?”

Love it. So true. So pointless. So soul-crushingly disappointing.

Remember that pain when you first started fucking, or if you had a new partner? “I put in all this effort … for WHAT?!”

It’s like that. Times 100. For infinity.

“that little pill she takes every day to mitigate the effects of PIV, is more real than anything any man ever does, or will ever do.”

Because there are no consequences for them. Even if they are poor, there is always some safety net — even if it’s only their physical maleness. They always have the boot on SOMEbody’s neck, even if they’re broke and/or in prison. A white redneck can still beat up on women and people of color. A black dude in a bad neighborhood can rest assured that he has one over on women, especially women of color. They can all beat and rape and torture all they want. And women STILL have to bear that brunt.

57. sonia - October 6, 2010

Joy on fire!

58. Sargassosea - October 6, 2010

Yes! And Sonia on fire @ FRG!

59. joy - October 6, 2010

Rawr.

What makes me LOL is that people often accuse radical feminists of not understanding intersectionality (ie, being white privileged fucks).

I had to stop commenting on Zuska’s blog because Isabel the troll actually called me “incomprehensible” when I explained what I explained above, and she was insisting I had missed the point (ie, that capitalism is all to blame, or I didn’t understand how capitalism oppressed me, or something).

But it’s the funfeminists who seem more likely to be white and rich … and they understand neither gender/sex-based oppression NOR capitalistic oppression. As we’ve discovered.

True, a lot of people at, say, IBTP have really cushy jobs and shit. But I don’t. And I still get it. This shit is all evil. We are swimming in a pool of shit, and it’s all evil, fucking hideous evil. I’m on fire until the day that changes.

60. thebewilderness - October 6, 2010

I think I have said this before, but just in case I haven’t, I strongly recommend reading Caliban and the Witch.

61. berryblade - October 7, 2010

I’d never actually seen that movie scene before, it was uh, certainly eye-opening. All the men in that scene looked so puzzled (even though they’re acting, but still) and like a light had switched on, shit, so womon xyz has been faking this whole time? that bitch.

Either most men’s dicks are more insensate than their hands, or they have never felt a genuine female orgasm.

I tend to opt for the latter.

Basically, their requirements seemed to be, as long as I wasn’t lying there obviously dissociating and wishing I was somewhere else. Because that would have made THEM feel like rapists! And it’s all about how THEY feel.

Well of course, sex is a man sticking his dick into a woman’s hole and leaving off a load, isn’t it? I’ve noticed this when I do talk to men about these kind of things. One guy I remember talking to about this once said that the moving around was good because it meant he could know they were conscious as if it were some bare minimum threshold “standard” he had.

“The survey also revealed an interesting discrepancy: 85 percent of men report their partner had an orgasm during their last sexual encounter, meanwhile, only 64 percent of women report having had an orgasm. The researchers say this difference is too large to be explained by some men having male partners.”

I too think this number is wildly over-estimated, earlier in the year, in one of my units, the statistics we got given were 77% of males orgasm from intercourse alone and something like 23% of womyn were able to orgasm from intercourse alone. Of course, these things never include shit like kissing + cuddling, because as we all know sex = pole into hole, which makes me think, do these sexologists and what not even think kissing counts as a sexual activity any more? Do they just count it under “foreplay” if it’s even included at all?

I love Ani DiFranco, possibly the best part of this thread ;)

“One-third of women experienced genital pain during their most recent sex, compared with 5 percent of men, said Herbenick, citing this as an area warranting study.”

Holy shit, and they don’t see this as problematic at all? You’re right Ms.C, why can’t men just keep their genitals the fuck away from womyn’s? It kinda disturbs me that the rate for anal sex for womyn receiving is higher than mens. All this nonsense about it being a “pleasure” zone, I’m sure if it would, you wouldn’t have your bodies toxic fucking waste products coming from it. Golly gee, I wonder what could POSSIBLY be influencing this behaviour?

62. berryblade - October 7, 2010

Shit, I didn’t close the italics, and I hit the “say it” button too soon. Oops :S

Also, apparently around 40% of condom users make the “error” of starting *sex* (intercourse) WITHOUT a condom? Buh? I can’t comprehend how anyone could do that, because it kinda defeats the point…

It’s because they like to live in a little make-believe world where STI’s don’t exist, in cases like this, you can tell that the man didn’t actually care about her health, only that she didn’t get pregnant and he might have been inconvenienced by like, having to pay for it or something. Again, PIV = female harm.

Men create the fake world, the artificial world, the destruction of nature and imitation world.
We have destroyed nature so that men could make fake plants, fake trees, fake women(MTFs), and artifical flavorings… to name a few thing that the ultimate fakers of life do.

Yay Sheila! Don’t forget, faking entire mental states with easy fix anti depressants + pharmaceuticals.

FCM, maybe the person who linked you on FB is the same person who linked me? I found I had an influx of spam-worthy comments after some one linked me on there.

63. Level Best - October 7, 2010

[Re STI's:] “It’s because [men] like to live in a little make-believe world where STI’s don’t exist. . .”–bb

Well, another thing is that some STI’s manifest mildly if at all in men but affect women much worse/more overtly. Add these STI’s in with all of the “routine” pain and bladder infections and unwanted pregnancies that women can have from PIV, and the cost of intercourse for women is HUGE. What’s fun and glory for men can be literally life-threatening for women.

Joy, I also think you rock. Classism is something those of us in the cheap seats understand a lot better than the tenured academics and scientists who comment at some of the fem-lite blogs do.

factcheckme - October 7, 2010

re STDs, one complication to women (but not to men) is that they cause pelvic inflammatory disease (PID), and can render you sterile. but if men dont care about womens actual physical wellbeing, AND they think of us as castrated fuckdolls, without internal parts (besides the fuckhole of course) then whats a little PID and infertility anyway? infertility = good. thats what being a fuckdoll (or a transwoman?) is all about.

64. berryblade - October 7, 2010

Add these STI’s in with all of the “routine” pain and bladder infections and unwanted pregnancies that women can have from PIV,

Golly gee, don’t even get me started on UTI’s – pretty much every time I’ve engaged in PIV I’ve gotten one. At one point, it was so bad that the antibiotics didn’t even work + I ended up with a full on kidney infection. Also, a friend of mine got pressured into condom-less PIV with a man (I say pressured, because she doesn’t call what happened rape, but I would) who had Chlamydia and she didn’t even *know* she had it for like, six months apart from a slight stinging sensation when weeing. Now her body has been fried from that. All because some jerk off put his ‘pleasure’ in front of her well being.

Also, when I was foolish enough to buy into consumerist, liberal, hedonist crap (fun feminism) I remember seeing a pr0n site that had a specialised little section for men fucking womyn where the men had visible STI’s (genital warts + such) and the men fucking womyn who obviously had STI’s as well, exacerbating things. That’s one of the many factors that made me come around about the issue, was the fact that these womyn were literally having their lives put on the line for some selfish jerk to wank to.

65. berryblade - October 7, 2010

Ahhhh fuck, I keep messing up my HTML, gosh. How the hell did I even do that? Everything after the top part was meant to be outside of quotes.

factcheckme - October 7, 2010

you didnt do the / bb. gotta be more careful, i cant fix these unless i am on an actual computer. thx.

66. joy - October 7, 2010

@berryblade:

“I tend to opt for the latter.”

Agreed.

“One guy I remember talking to about this once said that the moving around was good because it meant he could know they were conscious as if it were some bare minimum threshold “standard” he had.”

Yep. How … sickening. Again, another moment where, if I wasn’t already off the PIV, I’d be a whole lot of gone right now.

“Of course, these things never include shit like kissing + cuddling, because as we all know sex = pole into hole, which makes me think, do these sexologists and what not even think kissing counts as a sexual activity any more? Do they just count it under “foreplay” if it’s even included at all?”

Dude, PIM (penis in mouth? because oral sex as a term is nonspecific) and PIA aren’t even considered “sex” most of the time. It’s insane. Fucking insane.

“Golly gee, I wonder what could POSSIBLY be influencing this behaviour?”

Ummm … CHOICE!!! EMpowrmennnt!!! Teh femail sexual awakenings!
LOL!

Well, really, as you know, porn, and the desire that male-identified women have to appear less “prudish” and more “liberated.”

“It’s because they like to live in a little make-believe world where STI’s don’t exist”

They do, don’t they? My case of HPV barely caused the ex-partner to bat an eye, since he wouldn’t have to deal with the symptoms.

The time that my other ex-partner and his roommate gang-raped, I mean, “had a threesome with”, me, neither of them used rubbers — when I helpfully reminded them that they were hopefully both clean, since now they definitely would share whatever either of them had, the anger was directed at ME.

If the dude starts intercourse without a condom, then pulls out and puts one on (which was how I read the info, although I’m probably way too optimistic, go figure), he clearly isn’t concerned with STIs, and also doesn’t know (or care) that it’s not just “the money shot” that causes pregnancy. Every little bit of precum can knock you up just as easy.

Maybe these men know and are hoping that women don’t.

“Don’t forget, faking entire mental states with easy fix anti depressants + pharmaceuticals.”

Whoa, I forgot about that one! Damn! What an insidious, yet obvious, one!

Here, take this pill to make the symptoms of your totally justified unease over your life conditions. Because we don’t want you to disrupt the flow of society … by being all RIGHT and everything.

If more people stayed depressed, or anxious, or whatever, then maybe we could actually have a fucking revolution.

@ Level Best — thanks! We have each other’s backs, too, which they don’t.

If there was ever a revolution, it would be us on the front lines, so we’d have their backs there too. For whatever it would be worth.

67. berryblade - October 7, 2010

Thanks FCM, terribly sorry about my hideous html skills today.

It’s often been said that if you’re not outraged at the state of the world, you’re not paying enough attention. IDK if anxiety + depression would start a revolution, but if more people had that constant questioning hyper vigilant mind-frame about society maybe we could get somewhere?

68. kurukurushoujo - October 7, 2010

Something very disturbing about this sex study was also- as has been mentioned on the article on Jezebel- that the number of younger women being on the receiving end of anal didn’t match up with the number of young men giving anal (we’re talking about a big mismatch here). Which meant that many young women have anal sex with older men. CREEPY.

And about this empowerment/power stuff: I wonder how many of the feel-good-feminists have actually read a sociology book or educated themselves on power relations. Because many don’t understand:
1. Feeling empowered doesn’t mean you actually have power.
2. Power exists in social relations only and is dependent on how these social relations are arranged (e.g. a mini-skirt cannot have power, it’s only a piece of cloth). So a woman feeling empowered because her attractivity gets a dick hard doesn’t mean she has power because what makes her attractive has been socially defined as attractive for the most part. (In the case of “natural” attraction it isn’t power either because it has been predetermined by biology.) Getting a dick hard is the benefit she earns for compliance- it’s not power, i.e.:
3. Getting benefits for compliance doesn’t equal power.
Also, all that stuff about a person only having a tight grip on you after you have accepted your own subordination, your place in the pecking order. But, too inconvenient, shhhh, let’s not talk about it.

factcheckme - October 7, 2010

All they care about is pleasing dicks. It’s so obvious. and if it sounds like I am getting fed up, I am. its absolutely infuriating me at the moment. I mean really. I think it was all the bullshit with Hugo and his assclown posse that really set me off. the way they spoke about Dworkin, and me, and all radfems really was so disgusting and off base, it was really revealing actually regarding what they are all about. Piv is truth, and anything that gets in the way of that must be destroyed. All at the expense of the ACTUAL truth of course.

And old liverlips with his Ph.D in philosophy completely mischaracterizing radfem work, pretending it wasn’t completely intentional. And his readers were too fucking stupid to catch on. God it was heartbreaking, disgusting, and infuriating all at the same time.

And yet…some of those readers are still here. They never left, even after old buffalo biscuits changed the subject, and moved on. I wonder why? That part of its pretty interesting.

69. kurukurushoujo - October 7, 2010

And yet…some of those readers are still here. They never left, even after old buffalo biscuits changed the subject, and moved on. I wonder why? That part of its pretty interesting.

They take you serious. They have not tried commenting in numbers roughly equivalent to how many of them are here, have they? There might be many reasons for this, up to them mocking you behind your back on their own blogs. But, hey, you might make a difference. Hugo doesn’t realize that he was helping you.

I did not have the guts to venture over to Hugo’s, I fear. I get very angry very quickly what I had to realize when I wrote that one comment at the One Utah blog. But I can remember one of his commenter’s calling Hugo “a bit militant”. I was literally sitting there with my mouth hanging open. I mean, was this the quality of discourse in their discussion? Hugo is “a bit militant”? If Hugo is “a bit militant” John Stoltenberg and John Stuart Mill are terrorists, hahaha.

(Also, I want to say something about power and biology. Biology might give you the instruments with which to attain power but attractivity is hardly one of them since you cannot subordinate someone with it. I mean really subordinate in the sense of a diminished social status. Get laws established to make someone into a slave etc.)

70. rhondda - October 7, 2010

FCM, This is one of my favourite quotes of Andrea Dworkin:
Literacy, like fire is a tool that must by used by intelligence. (right wing women, p. 47)

You have proved that over and over again. Thank you.

71. rhondda - October 7, 2010

@the be wilderness.
I just received Caliban and the Witch. I had to put it down after the introduction. Thank you for this recommendation. Some things have to be taken slowly. This is one of those books.

factcheckme - October 7, 2010

thanks for that rhondda. and the quote too.

also, whats caliban and the witch about? i never ordered that one, but have received both my dale spender books. man made language, and women of ideas and what men have done to them. yay books!

72. rhondda - October 7, 2010

Caliban and the Witch is a feminist analysis of the ‘burning times’ and the rise of capitalism where the slavery of women was codified into law by the church and state. That is all I can say now. Each page is a revelation to me.

73. thebewilderness - October 9, 2010

It also examines the beginnings of the unholy alliance between religious authoritarians and corporate interests and how social engineering succeeds through marketing fear and hatred.

74. rhondda - October 9, 2010

the bewilderness: you know I think we are trying to articulate the same idea with different words. I totally agree with what you say. Religious authoritarians are my ‘church’ word and corporate interests is my ‘state’. Yes, sometimes I wonder how women even survived during those times, as I have heard that many chose to walk into the sea instead of submitting to such slavery. I know for me that I was terrorized as a child with hell for even questioning the bible story. The myths of patriarchy are marketed through fear and hatred of the female and keeping us ‘fuckable’.

75. thebewilderness - October 9, 2010

You are right, rhondda.
The only difference is that I am viewing it as the development of three separate but overlapping groups in collusion, rather than two.

76. rhondda - October 9, 2010

Okay, what is the third group that I am missing?

77. joy - October 10, 2010

Gonna take a stab at … government?

78. thebewilderness - October 10, 2010

No, you aren’t missing it. Church, State, and commercial interests.
One of the fascinating things to me to read about that period of time based on documents instead of the myths in history books and novels was the way that closing the commons created the conditions for wage work and the rise of a commercial or corporate class who profited not from their own work but from others efforts.


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