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Moron “The Cotton Ceiling” March 19, 2012

Posted by FCM in feminisms, logic, pop culture, porn, trans, WTF?.
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here are the recent tweets of trans porn star (and pretendbian!) drew deveaux (@drewdeveaux) in response to radical feminist and sex-positive criticism of his “theory” of “the cotton ceiling”.

its a “theory” because it makes you sound smart!  problems ensue when trying to plug in variables (facts) and getting reproducible results.  ie.  the claim that so-called lesbian transwomen are the same as lesbian women.  but the fact that it doesnt work (ie. its invalid) doesnt make it any less of a “theory”!  no it doesnt, shut up.

my commentary is on the right.  and you have to read these from the bottom-up to see them in chronological order.  sorry!  really, i am.

behold:

click on images to see in full size.  and feel free to comment below.  female-identified FAABs only, please.  thanks!

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Comments

1. smash - March 19, 2012

Yikes! Ew. Wading through all that… It’s hard to have a constructive response to the grossness.

FCM - March 19, 2012

yeah its pretty gross alright. luckily i am well versed in mansplanation-speak so i can trans-late it, and produce a trans-script of the exchange so you dont have to read it for yourself! also, the background image on his twitter account is an amateur-porny shot of him nekkid from the panties up, and i saved you from having to see it. YOURE WELCOME!

2. Nicky - March 19, 2012

It’s no wonder why it’s hard to have some type of normal intelligent conversation with them when it’s all about them all the time. It just shows how narcissistic and self centered trans can be.

3. Morgan M. Page « Pretendbians: Exactly Like Lesbians, Except Not - March 19, 2012

[...] Cotton Ceiling … Share this:TwitterFacebookLike this:LikeOne blogger likes this post. Tags: pretendbian This entry was posted by bugbrennan. [...]

4. ibleedpurple - March 19, 2012

Drew,

if you started making porn to show that you are as much of a woman as we you have already stated that you are not a woman. In fact, by comparing your level of femininity to ours you have demonstrated that you derive your sense of identity from us. Because of this, you can never be a woman.

You cannot fuck yourself to freedom. How many people will watch your porn vids compared to the average schmoe visiting pronhub to get his rocks off to a woman being treated like a piece of meat?

If you think that we are raping you by calling you men you have once again demonstrated your male privilege quite well. There is no difference between you and the resident male troll at feminist blog xyz who confuses his wishes not being fulfilled with violent systematic oppression. Once again I am asking myself how you can be so oppressed if you think “misgendering” is as bad as rape. The first indication of your privilege was your preposterous claim that not getting sexual access is comparable to being systematically shut out from power positions. Now you voice the opinion that being called “he” is equivalent to rape. You are totally and utterly male, socialized to have entitlement issues from day one.

Try to seek your “equal status” elsewhere and not up our vagina. You have no right to impose your reality on anyone. You have no right to shame women into sucking your dick or playing around with your make-shift fuckhole because you think it’s a goddamn vulva. Two thumbs up for actually acknowledging your rapey self, though!

Again, why do you want to have sex with people who are bigotted in your eyes? I do not desire to have sex with men who think that I am disgusting for being fat. Why would I? I would also never shame them into having sex with me because I am not a rapist. As is customary for you folks, however, you do miss one very important thing: a penis or neo-vagina is not the same as a woman’s vulva. Misogynists do not want to have sex with fat women or black women or tall women because they are not performing their sex role properly (by existing). Women do not want to have sex with you because they dig women and no matter how hard you try, no matter how often you tell yourself what a nice-looking piece of ass you are, you.are.not.a.woman.
___________________________________________________

Drew’s idea of being a woman is being desirable enough to be fucked. The only reason why he’s interested in deconstructing/writing/bullshitting anything or anyone is to get him some sweet sweet forced loving.This is why that workshop claims to be about communication with the queer community and yet fails to invite large parts of said community, read: women, by making it male-only. How the hell are you supposed to communicate your “problem” to women by not inviting them?

I’m so sick and tired of this bullshit. How much sex do women need to dish out for reasons other than their own pleasure before men shut the fuck up? So, so many of us have sex because of low self-esteem, for social status reasons or relationship maintenance. During the anti-war movement our sex was supposed to be a reward for draft resisters. Now it’s supposed to be a reward to MtTs for… being MtTs. They didn’t even bother to find a more complex reason aside from their queer babble about sexing your way to diversity.

This type of stuff gets me everytime. As a woman, I am relentlessly reminded that I need to be fucked or loved by men to have any worth whatsover. Enough already.

5. Cynthia - March 19, 2012

Typical male brained bollocks of seeing something one way and assuming that this one particular thought on the matter is groundbreaking and needs mansplained to the masses (women) who would otherwise not have this immensely important bit of information (since we’re stupid and easily influenced by expectations).

Perhaps some day Drew will get hit by a reality bus which will let him know that the real way to form a relationship between any two human beings has nothing to do with societal projections of beauty being construed, misconstrued, or blocked by a ceiling, but rather by their personalities resonating well together. You know, as in actually liking one another.

If a lesbian resonates with someone who happens to be a trans woman, then okay, fair fucking dues but no amount of mansplaining, MAAB-only workshops or similar bullshit is going to make that happen.

6. Cynthia - March 19, 2012

I realise I used “male brained” there but I meant “male mentality” or “male minded.” Whoops. ;x

FCM - March 19, 2012

after a long pause, drew is twittering again, and still trying to advance this idiotic “theory” and ignoring all the WRONG. and he is telling a born woman that she is doing it wrong. https://twitter.com/#!/drewdeveaux

7. thebewilderness - March 19, 2012

I think it brilliant! Old and worn, but hey! It works.
Everything women think they want is a construct of the patriarchy and so to be free of patriarchal conditioning women must do everything they don’t want to do and like everything they don’t like and then they will be truly free to be fucked by any d00d who want to fuck them.
Like Ibleedpurple, I remember this argument very well from the civil rights anti war womens lib days. Women may say they are open minded but men require that they open their legs to prove it.

I consider it the basis for the fun feminist fuck your way to freedom underpants gnome solution to oppression.
1, Have lots of PIV
2, ?
3, Freedom

FCM - March 19, 2012

heres a sample:

again, even the idea that the notion of the “cotton ceiling” is that it is about trans women “overcoming” obviates the fact that it is cis women who hold the power in that their bodies (as that woman in the blog pointed out) are seen as “real” & “valid”.

trans-lation: MY THEORY really is the same as the glass ceiling, and i meant to make that analogy, it wasnt a mistake. born-women are real, valid rape-objects and members of the oppressed rape-class, and i want to be one too, its not FAIR if im not one too when i want to be one. me not getting stuff that i want is what i mean by “oppression”. “oppression” doesnt mean what the dictionary says it means, and it doesnt mean what other politically oppressed groups mean when THEY say it.

8. thebewilderness - March 19, 2012

Well yanno, if that is the problem then all he has to do is see his own body as real and valid. It is his own mind he needs to change, not other peoples. There!!! Problem solved, without needing to fuck or be fucked by anyone.

9. smash - March 19, 2012

From [redacted lesbian]: If you oppose the cotton ceiling, sign this. http://www.thepetitionsite.com/917/570/206/support-womens-sexual-autonomy/

10. Mary Sunshine - March 19, 2012

Thanks, Smash.

I was just going to share the link. I signed. :-)

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/917/570/206/support-womens-sexual-autonomy/

FCM - March 19, 2012

I consider it the basis for the fun feminist fuck your way to freedom underpants gnome solution to oppression.
1, Have lots of PIV
2, ?
3, Freedom

srsly. they never quite tell you what ? is, or satisfactorily explain how and why its supposed to work.

11. Sargasso Sea - March 19, 2012

I signed as that petition as well. See how mean I am? :)

12. Linda Radfem - March 19, 2012

Is there a way to sign it without posting your street address?

13. bugbrennan - March 19, 2012

Also emailed PP:

from Cathy Brennan bugbrennan@gmail.com
to kklein@ppt.on.ca
cc ppt@ppt.on.ca
date Mon, Mar 19, 2012 at 7:40 PM
subject “Overcoming the Cotton Ceiling”
mailed-by gmail.com
hide details 7:40 PM (0 minutes ago)

Hi Kate –

My name is Cathy Brennan, and I am a Lesbian activist. I write to ask you to reconsider Planned Parenthood’s sponsorship of “Overcoming the Cotton Ceiling,” a workshop that promotes the idea that it is a “human right” for trans women to get into the cotton undies of lesbians. Please see the attached email correspondence I had with Morgan Page, the workshop facilitator.

In an era in which women face attacks from the right (e.g., conservative efforts to limit access to abortion and birth control) and left (witness the Slutwalk phenomenon), surely Lesbians have a right to assert “NO” to trans women seeking access to our bodies. Is this really the message you want to send to Lesbians – that it is somehow *required,* in order to be a trans ally, to have sex with trans women? Most trans women retain their penises – do you really want to stand for the notion that Lesbians are bigots for not wanting penis?

I urge you to read the materials at http://www.thepetitionsite.com/917/570/206/support-womens-sexual-autonomy/, http://factcheckme.wordpress.com/2012/03/19/moron-the-cotton-ceiling/ and https://factcheckme.wordpress.com/2012/03/13/the-cotton-ceiling-really/ for additional information.

Thank you, and I look forward to your response.

Cathy Brennan

14. Mary Sunshine - March 20, 2012

Yes, you can sign it without giving them your street address. They have my street address anyway because of my previous petition activity – but they don’t publish it. Give them any old address – it doesn’t matter to them. Also, you can request that your name not be published, I guess, because I see some un-named signatories there.

15. Linda Radfem - March 20, 2012

Thanks, Mary.

16. Elin - March 20, 2012

” a workshop inviting participants to discuss and strategize ways they might be able to “overcome” women’s objections to these participants’ sexual advances. ”
Reminds me of that Xzibit meme “hey I heard you like a disguised rape culture so we put a disguised rape culture in your disguised rape culture so you can rape disguised whilst you are disguised” (or something like that).

~

Also this “theory” indeed?
It is not anywhere really explained by him but I assume the principle/premisse here, is that women are bigoted, and the phenomenom/result is, M2T not getting sex with women.

I.e. Bigoted(woman) -> NOT Havesexwith(woman, M2T)

This is simply a logic statement promoted to the status of a full-fledged theory, but yes okay, a logic statement can be a theory.

But, now, what would render it FALSE? A “theory” needs to be able to be proven false after all.
Well, few things, because when you say X->Y it is only false if X=true and Y=false. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truth_table#Logical_implication)

This means, if women are bigoted and do not have sex with them, it is true. But it also means, if women are NOT bigoted but still have not sex with them, it is true. And… if women are NOT bigoted but DO have sex with them his “theory” is STILL true. I.e. if ALL women would become not “bigoted” in ANY way, the theory would STILL be not proven false. Well then it seems the “fault” is not really the part of the “bigotry”, duh.

And only in case of Bigoted(women) -> Havesexwith(woman, M2T) , the theory will be rendered false. I.e. can we “prove” we are openminded. By having the people who dislike them (oops are “bigoted”) have sex with them. Only then they will disprove the “theory” (i.e. remove their blame from women). Get in line…:/

17. bugbrennan - March 20, 2012
18. bugbrennan - March 20, 2012
19. BadDyke - March 20, 2012

And from that last linked exchange:

“The whole penis thing is a red herring. If you look right down those posts the author doesn’t believe ANY transwoman is actually a woman, penis or not. Standard rad femme hatefest against transwomen…again.”

So it’s okay to write rapey shite about them then. And lesbians not wanted to be forced or guilt-tripped into sleeping with people with penises is just another ‘red herring’ and UNIMPORTANT compared to the right of men to be seen as women cos they say so………….

When it boils down to this, it’s so bloody STUPID that you wonder that anyone woman with any sense could be taken in by this ‘I’m a woman cos I say I am’ shite. Because this now IS the logical extension of what the trans lobby has been claiming all along — that BODIES don’t matter (except I need surgery please to make me feel more comfortable), with Buck Angel saying that being a man has nothing to do with what’s between your legs, which is why she has kept her vagina (yet is still a man). The insistence on ‘neurological sex’ despite the fact that no one can find such a thing and trans relies entirely in self-reporting (with as far as I can see, NEVER any questioning of what someone identifies as)

Biolgy has GONE, sex or organs or anything concrete or tangible has GONE, and all we’re left with is the claimed internal voice of others that we must believe, and then we must sleep with them as well if they say they’re a woman.

Maybe this will be the stitch where it finally unravels, and the fun-fems and those women who’ve fallen for this trans nonsense will FINALLY begin to question the trans definition of what ‘being a woman’ or ‘identifying as a woman’ means when they see that it means they are expected, yet again, to open their legs for the man else they’ll be called rude names…………………..

FCM - March 20, 2012

someone should explain to those asshats that there can be (and in this case definitely is) more than one issue to be dealt with and more than one problem with or criticism of a proposal or a situation. it doesnt mean one or any of the criticisms is a “red herring.” in other words, they are FULL OF FAIL and the penis-problem is ONE of the problems that feminists and lesbians might have with transwomen or men generally. its a pretty big one though! and UNIQUE. they just wont get that the penis poses a UNIQUE threat to female-bodied people. its not like having one stuck up your ass. its DIFFERENT. mkay? different! its more like a loaded gun than it is like a cucumber. but theres a reason they wouldnt know that. or why they would have everything to gain from pretending its not true.

20. smash - March 20, 2012

BadDyke, I was hoping this would be the stitch that finally unravels, but in my discussion online with funfeminists on this issue, I’ve been repeatedly misunderstood and called “transphobic” for posting the petition.

Maybe some of them will get it (as evidenced by bugbrennan’s links), but as far as I can see, any criticism whatsoever of trans folk for any reason is returned as transphobic.

21. bugbrennan - March 20, 2012

Planned Parenthood Toronto has a Facebook page http://www.facebook.com/PPToronto?sk=wall&filter=1

22. bugbrennan - March 20, 2012

smash – funfems are lesbophobic. ;-)

23. jen - March 20, 2012

What a clown this guy is. From his Twitter:

“…an indv’s body/right to say “no”. It does direct indv to consider what they believe/desire.”

This implies that there is something wrong with the fact that lesbians are only attracted to the female-bodied. This contradicts the whole point of LGB liberation. No other group in the alphabet soup is subject to this imposition.

Absolutely no one has any moral obligation to question their lack of desire for another person or type of person. Period. If your sexual identity relies on guilt tripping and both verbal and physical threats, YOU are the one who needs to consider what you believe.

MTFs have obviously never considered or questioned any of their desires, so why should anyone else? The narcissism involved here is staggering.

Why would Planned Parenthood sponsor a workshop that is roughly akin to, and because of women’s physical vulnerability worse than, a gay men’s health center sponsoring a workshop on how to get straight men to sleep with you?

MTFs have NO right whatsoever to “dialogue” with lesbians. Being part of a sexual minority does not give your demand for pussy access any moral weight. Gay men would laugh off any attempt to tell them who to be attracted to. Only women are expected to accommodate demands from the male-bodied.

This guy’s crybaby pleas for “inclusion” are coercion, plain and simple. How ironic that the “coercively assigned at birth” fail to understand this.

24. ibleedpurple - March 20, 2012

The fact that so many people swallow Drew’s line hook and splinter is an effect of the whole idea of “yes means yes” being used to propagate coercive sexuality. They truly think that if they can convince women to have sex with them, i.e. say “yes”, they are free from any criticism whatsoever. This “yes”, of course, will be the result of campaigning on their part to convince women that they have internalized transphobia if they do not want to have sex with MtTs. The sex will not be the result of desire, it will be the result of social engineering. “Enthusiastic consent”, my ass. More like “consent coerced through means of political pressure”.

At this point, I really do not care anymore about being called transphobic. Keep sabotaging yourselves, you twits.

25. bugbrennan - March 20, 2012
26. m Andrea - March 20, 2012

Btw, I thought your “cotton ceiling” post was absolutely brilliant (and the comments as well) but I didn’t have anything to add to the convo. Still don’t, except thank you so much for such brilliant analysis.

27. bugbrennan - March 20, 2012

The workshop is also sponsored by the Sherbourne Health Centre, home of the famous meanie Xander Sarkisova. You can read about him here http://bugbrennan.com/2012/03/14/silence-continues-from-sherbourne-health-centre/ and here http://gendertrender.wordpress.com/2012/01/02/whats-up-with-toronto-sherbourne-health-center-threatening-lesbians/

28. WTF is up with the Sherbourne Health Centre in Toronto? « You think I just don't understand, but I don't believe you. - March 20, 2012

[...] Second, Sherbourne Health Centre is co-sponsoring a workship with PLANNED PARENTHOOD to teach MAABs how to penetrate the barrier of Lesbian Underwear? [...]

29. bugbrennan - March 20, 2012
30. Sargasso Sea - March 20, 2012

Yes, Bug, I had noticed the connection with Sherborne/Xander myself…

31. bugbrennan - March 20, 2012
FCM - March 20, 2012

gross.

bugbrennan - March 20, 2012

Indeed.

32. jen - March 21, 2012

“No More Apologies?” No more apologies for what? Wanting to get at that cis pussy? It sounds like what they really mean “We Won’t Take No For An Answer.”

I wonder what they’ll do once they find out all the unwanted dialogue in the world doesn’t get them past that cotton ceiling. Can’t wait to see them take it to the next level.

Since they love to compare their hijinks to the Civil Rights movement, I suggest they call their next conference “By Any Means Necessary.”

33. cherryblossomlife - March 21, 2012

“Queer, trans and Cis women cumming together.” Ewww

They’re all reading femonade, so i’ve got a question for Drew:

Drew,

Surely straight guys are transphobic when they dont find you fuckable because you’re not actually a woman? Your beef is with them. I’m sorry but I can’t take you seriously until I see some real evidence that you have made a proper effort at coercing straight guys (who don’t find you attractive) into sleeping with you, via conferences and online activism.

I’d really like to know the answer to this one. Thanks!

(oh and good luck with bullying heterosexual males. THat’s something I’ve got to see)

FCM - March 21, 2012

conveniently, they only seem to want to coerce gender-queers, not strident or non-gender-fluid heterosexuals? is this correct? and they include lesbians in “queers”. funny that.

34. jen - March 21, 2012

I doubt the fun-fems would defend them so valiantly if they set their sights on getting into straight gals’ panties. At least for now they can smugly say let’s you and her “shine light on your socially constructed desires” and throw them a guilt/pity fuck.

FCM - March 21, 2012

attempts to explain to them that female-identified FAAB lesbians are not gender-fluid or “queer” were apparently unsuccessful.

35. Nicky - March 21, 2012

In other words, they are trying to mansplaining how to get a woman

36. thebewilderness - March 21, 2012

It’s like deja vu all over again.
In the sixties it was WHY won’t you fuck me? Are you a lesbian or something?
Now it’s WHY won’t you fuck me, you are supposed to be a lesbian aren’t you?

It’s like they learned the random creep tactic from their dads.

37. bugbrennan - March 21, 2012

LOL at “attempts to explain to them that female-identified FAAB lesbians are not gender-fluid or “queer” were apparently unsuccessful.”

38. BadDyke - March 21, 2012

“BadDyke, I was hoping this would be the stitch that finally unravels, but in my discussion online with funfeminists on this issue, I’ve been repeatedly misunderstood and called “transphobic” for posting the petition. ”

Yep, the funfems have swallowed the knee-jerk transphobic response hook line and sinker! Let’s face it, we always knew the so-called feminists who were so keen, all the damn time, to reassure the men around them that they didn’t ‘hate’ all men. Always looking to their special ‘man’ for approval. Now we have the same kind of thing, just that it’s the men in dresses who say they’re women that they’re so desperate to get approval from.

“waht about teh menzzzzz” — yep, heard all that before!

But maybe the sheer ridiculousness of it will get through eventually, we shouldn’t give up hope, or expect this to happen overnight. Some women may be feeling a bit unsure about this turn of events, but not able yet to voice that, else they’ll get labelled a transphobe and kicked out to join us in rad-fem purgatory…………….

39. cherryblossomlife - March 21, 2012

well this is what men *do* isn’t it. They brow-beat women into accepting what they want. Deep down, the funfems have an inkling that there are consequences and repercussions for standing up against trans women.
I mean, it’s not as though their stance is logic based (clearly not: logic is certainly not on their side with this one), so them supporting trans activism must be “feeling” based. Those feelings must be a mixture of pity and, dare I say it, fear of repercussions.

40. smash - March 21, 2012

I brought this up on feministe (my first mistake) and was verbally stoned for it. I truly thought this was so egregious that they would see the rape culture involved, but nope- bring on the ad hominem attacks and cries of “bigot” “transphobe” etc. No matter how we frame criticisms, they are brainwashed and blind to them.

Teh, great job highlighting that this is the same song, different day.

41. Nicky - March 21, 2012

It’s the same thing they are doing to Intersex people and the Intersex community as well. They brow-beat intersex people into accepting their warped ideology. I see the twanz use the same tactics on women and lesbian applied to Intersex people as well.

42. smash - March 21, 2012

Yep Nicky, it’s simple bullying. I’m really sorry to hear they’re attacking your community this way; though I am not surprised.

43. Nicky - March 21, 2012

I’m not surprise that twanz are using the same tactics on women and lesbian being applied to Intersex people. It seems that to twanz, they will stop at nothing to get what they want.

44. ibleedpurple - March 21, 2012

Since they love to compare their hijinks to the Civil Rights movement, I suggest they call their next conference “By Any Means Necessary.”

Brilliant.

I think they should bring this project to the NAACP. Including all their arguments that sex segregation is the same as Jim Crow and if you support it you are equivalent to the KKK:

45. bugbrennan - March 21, 2012
FCM - March 21, 2012

LOL! smash, are you causing trouble over at feministe? awesome.

46. lily - March 21, 2012

I wish I could feel more hopeful.. The creepiness of this “cotton ceiling” mindset seems so obvious and disturbing and yet, almost everyone is so quick to bow down to it.

How can even one person take this insane, rape-y illogic seriously? I guess they’re afraid to say no or criticize it?

FCM - March 21, 2012

what will it take for some people to hit “peak trans”? its scary to think about. one of the first times i blogged about trans, i predicted that the day would come where a transwoman would rape a born-woman in the name of feminism, (not just bc he was a rapist) and that feminists would cheer the rapist on, say the victim deserved it for being transphobic, and agree that the trans rapist was gender-nonconforming bc SHE was being violently aggressive and physically harming people. we are kinda headed down that road, im sorry to say.

http://factcheckme.wordpress.com/2010/01/03/rape-culture-simultaneously-exists-and-does-not-exist/

47. smash - March 21, 2012

FCM: :) If you want to wade through, it starts here: h88p://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2012/03/19/shameless-self-promotion-monday-9/#comment-443812 The whole thread nicely shows their bullying and silencing tactics, and their lack of argumentation against the petition.

As I’ve pointed out elsewhere, I think this comment is pretty funny, because the portion of my blog that they are citing is criticizing the very silencing technique they are using. HILARIOUS STUFF HERE!

http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2012/03/19/shameless-self-promotion-monday-9/#comment-444233

FCM - March 21, 2012

every time a transwomen says VILE, a puppy dies. transwomen must really hate puppies alot.

48. lily - March 21, 2012

So apparently, according to commentors on funfem sites, it’s okay for them to advocate actual violence against and demean us lesbians/”cis”women as ‘phobes.. but it’s ~*worse than rape*~ when we state that we aren’t attracted to male-bodied people? when we DARE say as much in public?

FCM, I think you’re right. the very existence of this moronic conference is terrifying enough. it’s basically advocating rape.. God, my stomach..

49. Planned Parenthood Embraces Lesbophobia, Supports Workshop Framing Lesbians As a “Barrier” to be Overcome « You think I just don't understand, but I don't believe you. - March 21, 2012

[...] read the materials at http://www.thepetitionsite.com/917/570/206/support-womens-sexual-autonomy/, http://factcheckme.wordpress.com/2012/03/19/moron-the-cotton-ceiling/ and https://factcheckme.wordpress.com/2012/03/13/the-cotton-ceiling-really/ for additional [...]

50. Planned Parenthood Embraces Lesbophobia, Supports Workshop Framing Lesbians As a “Barrier” to be Overcome « You think I just don't understand, but I don't believe you. - March 21, 2012

[...] read the materials at http://www.thepetitionsite.com/917/570/206/support-womens-sexual-autonomy/, http://factcheckme.wordpress.com/2012/03/19/moron-the-cotton-ceiling/ and https://factcheckme.wordpress.com/2012/03/13/the-cotton-ceiling-really/ for additional [...]

51. lily - March 21, 2012

the funfem comments at Feministe are making me want to sob.

52. smash - March 21, 2012

I’ve blogged about this incident. http://smashesthep.wordpress.com/2012/03/21/on-the-cotton-ceiling-rape-culture-and-feministe/

Lily, I’m sorry they are so awful. :(

53. cherryblossomlife - March 21, 2012

how does this happen? Even your average het guy knows this cotton ceiling idea is plain wrong, and they instinctively “get” that men who say they’re women shouldn’t be allowed access to spaces that have been designated for women. (In Japan, we have specific train carriages for women because of all the groping and harrassment, and there’s no way a man who pretended to be a woman, or *wanted* to be a woman would be allowed in)

So *how* is it that this particular group of women have been so brainwashed?

FCM - March 21, 2012

there are other ways that this very tiny group of western women are different from the rest of the women in the world too: western fun fems are the only women in the world, across time and place, who have ever been in any kind of denial about the female-specific harms of the penis. everyone else knows about it and admits it, except them. fun fems are also the only ones that think its possible for women to fuck our way to freedom, when the rest of the global female population knows that its actually our right to decline PIV that is going to be critical to our political and personal freedom.

uncritical trans acceptance and sex-positivism have to be related. its obvious what they have in common, because denial of female reality, and denial of reproductive reality, is the foundation of both.

54. sheela - March 22, 2012

Love this blog. Have only just discovered the world of RF blogs–revelation! Have just commented on feministe (printed below) though I shouldn’t expect they’ll allow it through.

Cherryblossomlife, good point about MTFs picking their targets. Any criticism of gay male only groups/networks/bars/clubs/sex spaces (and there are thousands) is conspicuously absent from the incessant attack on women’s autonomy, women’s organizing and…women.

comment to feministe:
Attacking women for being ‘transphobic’ seems intellectual bullying and a way of having to avoid actually engaging with ideas. Feminists have had to accept that feminism is a ‘broad church’ and there’s little to be gained from screaming that others are antifeminist for disagreeing with one’s own world view. Some feminists struggle with how antichoice or corporate women feminists can reconcile their position, but one attempts to engage rather than hurling abuse, as per comments above. Similarly with all other forms of political discussion. The whole identity based line–’If you don’t agree with everything I say (or indeed, allow me to smash through your cotton barrier and have sex with me on demand) you’re a filthy bigot’ does not seem particularly logical or intelligent.

55. cherryblossomlife - March 22, 2012

Yes, when a group of western women take the *political* stance of saying that men should be entitled to access female-only spaces it smacks of privilege (and a sheltered life).

To then say that this stance is feminist is just so bizarre. I understand why trans women don’t want to mix with non trans males (after all, they can be as scary as shit), but I don’t understand why m2T and their supporters think that the safety of m2T should take *precedence* over the safety of women AND that we’re supposed to say this bullshit is FEMINIST.

[well I do actually know why m2Ts are seen as more important than women. It's coz they're men. If anybody *really* though they were women, nobody would give them the time of day, and nobody would be jumping through hoops to pander to them the way these fun fems are doing]

56. LMAO! « GenderTrender - March 22, 2012
57. Drew Deveaux « Pretendbians: Exactly Like Lesbians, Except Not - March 22, 2012

[...] Cotton Ceiling … Share this:TwitterFacebookLike this:LikeBe the first to like this post. This entry was posted by bugbrennan. [...]

58. Who said it: Captain Kirk or MTF trans? « scum-o-rama! - March 22, 2012

[...] more here and here. Like this:Like3 bloggers like this post. from → douchebaggery, FCM, LOL, mansplainers, rape [...]

FCM - March 22, 2012
59. smash - March 22, 2012

sheela, great comment at feministe, even if it doesn’t get through. Glad to see you in the world of RF blogs :)

60. Nicky - March 22, 2012

If more and more people woke up and see what Trans is really about, people would wise up and see them for who they are. As pervy men, hell bent on entering female spaces. People just need to wake up and see for themselves what Trans is and what their agenda on women, lesbian and intersex people.

61. bugbrennan - March 22, 2012
62. TRANSPHOBIA! « scum-o-rama! - March 22, 2012

[...] more here and here. Like this:LikeOne blogger likes this post. from → douchebaggery, FCM, mansplainers, rape [...]

FCM - March 22, 2012
63. Ashland Avenue - March 22, 2012

For someone who obviously considers himself such an intellectual, Drew should really learn the fucking difference between infer and imply. They are not synonyms.

FCM - March 22, 2012

he doesnt know what a theory is either. or, like, social justice. obviously.

64. sheela - March 22, 2012

Below, feministe response to my comment last night.

‘…We are very big fans of good-faith exchanges of ideas. But you know, the person who thinks “women are inferior” is a good-faith position is not someone who is welcome here. Someone who thinks “trans women are not REAL woman” is also not welcome here. Because bigotry. That’s not an ad hominem attack; that’s a position statement.’

(Mmmm, REAL women with prostate glands and y chromosomes, be still my beating heart!) Then –

Jill 3.22.2012 at 12:02 am | Permalink *
And all of that said: This thread is to promote feminist work. Feminism has a lot of different faces, and I am not a fan of policing what FEMINISM must look like. But I would appreciate if this space would not be used to promote works that don’t fit out community and commenting guidelines. And that’s the final word. So let’s get back to actually highlighting and discussing productive, awesome feminist writing and other work — because there is so much of it!! — rather than focusing on the ass-backwards bigoted views of a small handful of people who want us to divert all of our attention and effort to them, because their viewpoints are quite simply dying out.:

–Wow. A bit hitler youth-ish, that last sentence…. like, DIE Radical Feminists, the future belongs to US! But mainly that whole blog is just a mosh of mushy irrationality.

65. Alisha - March 23, 2012

What about the GLASS ceiling?

This came up a bit at Twisty’s, but I don’t know how old y’all are, so I’ll share it here:

Apparently, once women hit their 30s, their career stalls, and I am so there right now. Can’t get hired for shit. I’m watching 24-year-old men pass me by.

Do you plan to touch on this in the future? Or know of any blogs that do? Because lack of access to economic opportunities is one of the biggest issues facing women (gay and straight alike) right now. I really think there’s a huge backlash against women in the professional world right now, and the media with its never-ending parade of “Oooh, women are doing so well and men are suffering soooo bad!” is making it worse.

What can we DO?

66. Alisha - March 23, 2012

By the media, I specifically mean stories like these: http://www.phillymag.com/articles/the_sorry_lives_and_confusing_times_of_today_s_young_men/.

Check out the comments. They’re very, VERY anti-woman. And this is a “tame” article compared to some of the others.

I’d like to see a post on this issue in the near future. I know I’m going off-topic, but anytime the word “ceiling” is mentioned, my thoughts immediately turn to “glass ceiling.” At this point, since playing up the (paid) writing work I’ve done for the gay and lesbian community isn’t enough to demonstrate my commitment to now having kids, I’m searching my brain to think of tactful ways to say “I don’t want kids” in my cover letter.

FCM - March 23, 2012

Feel free to start your own blog, and write about anything you wish. Thanks.

FCM - March 23, 2012

Sheela, you are right about the end there, how repulsive. Surely they all supported the violent trans that attacked germain Greer last week too. Greer, a 73 year old woman, was an acceptable target for trans extremist violence. We already know how they act when one of our feminist elders die. They literally cannot wait for every single one of them, and every single one of us, to die.

67. ethicalequinox - March 23, 2012

“They literally cannot wait for every single one of them, and every single one of us, to die.”

Considering that *we* are the ones who try to *avoid* unnecessary surgeries, hormone injections, toxic hair products/make-up, oh yeah! and whatever kinds of supercrack they are smoking 37 hours a day, that desire of theirs might be…. a bit of a tall order.

But seriously, I am appalled by all this as well, and I’m very grateful that you (and everyone else) continue to write about these issues. Radical feminists don’t have the luxury of relaxing, it seems.

FCM - March 23, 2012

That’s a good point isn’t it? Some trans was whining on another thread that the average life expectancy for trans is 23 or something. And ask Jessica valenti what happens to ones sexxxay fun denial once you grow up and have a couple of life experiences that are completely at odds with the fun fem kool aid (her pregnancy nearly killed her, and she left feminism very shortly after that). Real feminism has staying power bc its based on universal truths that transcend time and place. That gives me hope.

68. Darcie - March 23, 2012

If I should ever mean a trans person that I like, if our eyes should lock across a crowded room, if the chemistry is there and oohh sooo mutual, I will not hesitate to act on it. It hasn’t happened so far, so there Drew, run along now and go hold your breath.

69. Darcie - March 23, 2012

are you still holding your breath? keep goin

FCM - March 23, 2012

LOL!

FCM - March 23, 2012

i would also point out that there is a vast difference between hoping an ideology “dies out” bc its rooted in privileged majority “old white guy” thinking, and hoping a minority ideology and an entire minority culture dies out and looking forward to that happening when IF it does, it will only be bc radical feminist voices are silenced, where our work is destroyed and phased out by not publishing us, taking our works out of print, or not being sustained or supported due to the general undervaluing of womens work and women being so overworked as to not have time to write, AND radical feminist work in particular having no monetary value in a capitalist patriarchy, and where we are not and have never been supported by patriarchal institutions and never will be. fun fems literally looking forward to the day when womens culture dies is so fucking sick, it makes me furious, sick and sad. do they even hear themselves? sometimes i wonder. its another example of them using the language of social justice, but having no idea what it really means. social justice movements can be hopeful that privileged old white guy thinking will die out, but being the majority they are, patriarchy-pleasers hoping an entire minority culture dies out makes them the genocidal colonizers, not the colonized. ironically, “genocide” is their favorite fucking word, which is another appropriation of language they know nothing about. patriarchy supports trans and it supports fun-fems. this should make certain things very obvious and it does make them obvious, to anyone whos paying attention.

70. Nicky - March 23, 2012

What’s obvious is that the Cotton ceiling is another form of rape. It’s rape and pillage of women and lesbians bodies and their community. That’s why trans see the cotton ceiling as another form of raping away women and lesbian people. People need to seriously wake up and see what trans people are and see them for who they are. Whacked out men, hell bent on destroying and raping women. Rape is Rape and no matter how many ways trans try to FRAME it, it is still RAPE in the eyes of women and lesbians everywhere. It also serves as a wake up call to Intersex people and the intersex community who are either blinded by trans or duped by trans to wake up and see what trans is Really all about and see them for who they REALLY are.

71. BadDyke - March 23, 2012

“Someone who thinks “trans women are not REAL woman” is also not welcome here. Because bigotry. That’s not an ad hominem attack; that’s a position statement.’”

So, as we all knew, you MUST believe that ‘being a woman’ is something in the head. Hence anyone can be one. A ‘position statement’ that is just dogma.

Bigotry: obstinate or unreasonable attachment to a belief
Hence the only unreasonable attachment to a BELIEF that I can see here is coming straight from the fun-fems, because they’re NOT willing to discuss or admit the possibility that their belief in ‘innate womanhood’ might be wrong.

Hence the ‘because bigotry’ statement is correct, just that the bigotry is coming from them, not us.

Ditto: “rather than focusing on the ass-backwards bigoted views of a small handful of people who want us to divert all of our attention and effort to them,” which describes the trans crowd to a T (pun intended!). Except you missed out — attention, effort, and sleep with them as well……………

Ditto (just for the hell of it) anyone who states ‘women are inferior’ — well, I’m NOT afraid of discussing that point, if someone has a actual argument they are making, rather than just throwing around insults. I’m not AFRAID that my position will wither under any scrutiny, that I can’t defend it using facts and logic. Except the trans crowd and their funfem acolytes ARE AFRAID, because they know that it really is just a belief when you come down to it, and a belief that underlies their whole identity.

Take heart! They are SO scathing of us we must be doing something right! They KNOW that their position (that trans are women is a FACT) isn’t supportable, hence why they keep silencing and bullying to try and stop any whisper of dissent.

FCM - March 23, 2012

Ditto (just for the hell of it) anyone who states ‘women are inferior’ — well, I’m NOT afraid of discussing that point, if someone has a actual argument they are making, rather than just throwing around insults. I’m not AFRAID that my position will wither under any scrutiny, that I can’t defend it using facts and logic. Except the trans crowd and their funfem acolytes ARE AFRAID, because they know that it really is just a belief when you come down to it, and a belief that underlies their whole identity.

yes, this is an excellent point. there are no actual arguments that support trans (or fun feminism for that matter) and i often make logical proofs, venn diagrams etc to show my work and they never respond to them, because they cant. also, i would point out that “women are inferior” has no correlate in “transwomen are not women” and besides, “women are inferior” isnt even an argument i would care to have with anyone bc its irrelevant isnt it? what patriarchy says (and enforces) is that women arent HUMAN. women arent HUMAN, transwomen arent HUMAN, now that would be a reasonable parallel, and radfems agree very much that transwomen are HUMAN because we are reality based and that happens to be true. transwomen are HUMAN MALES who were raised men with male privilege, and who can often still impregnate women. and THEREFORE we have a problem with them in certain contexts where that is relevant.

72. Ashland Avenue - March 23, 2012

Jill at Feministe sucks the patriarchy’s cock. Over and over and over. She is nothing but its handmaiden. She’s a privileged, pretty little white girl who wants to always appear as the highest champion of the disadvantaged and relish in the flattery and love – except when it comes to born women, particularly lesbians. Those, she’s perfectly willing to throw under the bus in favor of appeasing males. This whole dumbass “cotton ceiling” thing is Exhibit A of that. If this were an idea proposed by a straight, non-trans male, she’d be all over it like white on rice – denouncing the rapey implications of it. But instead, she’s once again sucking the cock of the trans people who can’t even admit that maybe, just MAYBE, the wording of this seminar is horrific, to say the least; that the whole idea is beyond disgusting. God forbid Jill should displease some of her constituency by being consistent with calling out sexism and misogyny. She can’t have that! They might not loooooove her!

But wait, dere’s moar!

At first, I was a fan of Feministe, but then quickly realized: 1) how dismissive and ARROGANT they are when it comes to second-wave feminism. These are women like my mother, who waged sex-discrimination suits back then (and won!), making employers think twice about sexist practices. Employment laws were put into place because of the actions of these brave women. There were women who created changes in health care for women – with regard to both the physical AND psychological care. The obnoxious, know-it-all brats over at Feministe have NO IDEA how condescending doctors were to women back then. Fuck, you think it’s bad now?! You need to read your Barbara Ehrenreich and Deirdre English and find out how bad it really was. Or, as the “writers” at Feministe love to so sanctimoniously order others, “Get your 101 on!” (Pardon me whilst I vomit at the idea of being ordered by someone just out of school to do anything, let alone be preached to by them.) (God, I can just hear the whines of “But that’s aaaaaaaageist!” now. No, it’s not.)

2) The recurrent wishing for older feminists and their beliefs to “die out,” with absolutely no regard – or gratitude – for how these women made your average Feministe reader’s life so much easier. So many snotty comments over there dissing second wave feminists for the slightest thing are allowed to stand, unchallenged – even those made by men! You call that a feminist site?! It’s like the cool thing to do over there, to show you’re in the know and all sophisticated and stuff! Yay us! Because some mean things were said about trans people. Guess what, Emma Goldman and Margaret Sanger also said some shitty things. But I’m sure as hell not going to throw them out with the bathwater either. Remember, I am a child of the seventies; I was not a woman on the front lines then. But at least I know who to give props to, and who to stand up for. They’re too busy over there masturbating over their own self-proclaimed awesomeness, and calling each other out on the slightest deviance from their accepted scripts, to actually, you know, advance the cause of feminism.

73. Nicky - March 23, 2012

@BadDyke, I totally agree with you on that one. As an Intersex person, I have seen bigotry and the word bigot being thrown around so much that it’s becoming old very fast. I see trans use the word bigot alot when they have nothing to back up what they say and label anyone who is against them. It just shows how trans use their male mentality when someone disagrees with them.

74. smash - March 23, 2012

I didn’t know this, but apparently some women are dis-identifying as lesbians. http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2012/03/19/shameless-self-promotion-monday-9/#comment-445199

They are actively non-woman identifying on purpose.

75. smash - March 23, 2012

I don’t mean they are trans; I mean they are females who like females who refuse to be called lesbians.

76. Lily - March 23, 2012

Wow, Smash, thanks for pointing that out to me.. They actually used me as an example as their reason for not identifying as a lesbian.. Despite their being a lesbian (female who likes females only..). And claimed its because we lesbians are hateful..

I don’t understand how my pointing out how creepy “the cotton ceiling” concept is is hateful.. I think it’s pretty hateful of MAABs to organize a conference about breaking into FAAB, lesbian panties, though. being creeped out and offended by something blatantly offensive is not hateful..

77. thebewilderness - March 23, 2012

That was a punch to the heart!
They are eager for the women who fought for womens rights to die out?
Why? Because all our work has yet to be undone, and once we are dead they can make better progress at promoting the interests of men without their conscience bothering them? Because when we are dead and buried they can all pretend it was just a bunch of silly women making noises about wanting equal treatment not only under the law but in society? Then if they are really really nice to all the men the men will be nice to them. Just like in the good old days before all that womens lib nonsense.
Damn. That was a punch to the heart.

78. Lily - March 23, 2012

A punch to the heart indeed :/

Also, isn’t it telling that they won’t even use the word lesbian? It’s internalized lesbophobia..

79. smash - March 23, 2012

Lilly, what you said wasn’t hateful at all. They are simply delusional. It is very sad!

80. Darcie - March 24, 2012

All these new vocabulary words taking up valuable real estate inside my head, by all means, let’s put it to use. cis-this and trans-that and gender-queer and bio- and FAAB MAAB queer questioning SMBD and swinging scatting bi- tri- pan-sexual LGBTQI on rye toasted hold the mayo, extra pickle no PIV with a tall glass of unsweetened tea with ACAI please.

I’ll learn it all, and if you want to identify as a queer woman or pansexual and don’t wish to be associated with lesbians, that’s your perogative. What is the purpose of inventing and then forcing this new language on those around you if you still insist on corrupting the language that predates the latest lexicon?

Could it be if you can’t have it then nobody can. Let it be that lesbian means female assigned at birth who wants to be with female assigned at birth. Need a new word to describe trans women attracted to women, make something up and force it upon us, nothing has stopped you from doing so before. When I want to venture out and enjoy the company of the alphabet soup queer community at large, I’ll do so, and when I want to hang with a group of lesbians I can kick back and have a conversation without tripping over the latest excuse to be offended because I made the mistake of using the word lesbian as if I had the right to define my own description. Incidentally, same reason I don’t spend whole lots of time holding conversations in the company of republicans, say one thing wrong and it off to the races, how dare I, no how dare you, no you…, no you….

81. Lily - March 24, 2012

I made the mistake of trying to engage people there.. There is a lot of character assassination and insulting and talking around the issue. and condescension. and. I’m done there. this pomo nonsense makes me so heavy-hearted…

FCM - March 24, 2012

you can feel the maleness over there, and i will say it again, this surprises me as much as anyone and i didnt know there was such a thing until i stopped allowing reading-comprehension-challenged mansplainers on my blog. the place went MAAB-free organically, without my ever making a hard and fast rule against MAABs. you can smell them across the internet. its really something. they reek of maleness in every way. and this is not anything they can change and they prove this constantly by trying to change it and failing. we can tell who and what they are. their only option is to FORCE us to tell them we dont notice. but thats all it is: its forced, and not real. they prefer this to reality, but thats because many of them are literally insane, and the rest are just abusers who get off on telling women what to do, and having women do it.

82. smash - March 24, 2012

Lilly, I agree with you that it is character assassination, and I’m so sorry they treated you that way. I agree with FCM that they are male-identified, and many of them are insane and abusers. All the name calling, after continuously being reminded that ad hominem attacks are not argumentation… it boggles the mind. They cannot hear, or will not listen.

83. smash - March 24, 2012

Also, GREAT point about reparative therapy. They didn’t even address that at all.

84. ibleedpurple - March 24, 2012

*sigh*

I have just realized that the people over at Feministe remind me of this Monty Python quote:

“You see, our experts describe you as an appallingly dull fellow, unimaginative, timid, lacking in initiative, spineless, easily dominated, no sense of humour, tedious company and irrepressibly drab and awful. And whereas in most professions these would be considerable drawbacks, at Feministe in chartered accountancy they are a positive boon.”

Feminist accountants sitting in your diversity committees and earming a nice buck from making “diversity” profitable to corps. That’s how I see them.

I hereby pledge to say all kinds of “transphobic, bigoted” shit and no fuck will be given forevermore. I just love the fact how they have this really angelic idealistic vision of the Holy Trans when the empirical evidence I know of has revealed that (starting from the 70s on) trans is basically a phenomenon by which a bunch of very mentally ill people take very drastic measures to be accepted into middle class normalcy (in general). The kind of hysteria that is invoked by questioning transsexualism in feminist circles is, however, unlike everything I have ever seen when it comes to the topic. Most ridiculously, a lot of trans I see being involved in feminism seem much more fetishistic to me than “regular” trans.

FCM - March 24, 2012

bahahahahahaha!

FCM - March 24, 2012

hilarious: the accountant is also a trans-lion tamer. because he has a lion-tamer hat. LOL

FCM - March 24, 2012

fun feminism is dull, dull, dull, my god its dull, its so desperately dull and tedious and stuffy and boring and desperately dull. :)

heres one without the subtitles:

85. Nicky - March 25, 2012

Priceless :)

FCM - March 25, 2012

its admitted, finally: lesbians arent allowed to refuse dick. “its a problem.” because it invalidates men’s identities as women.

As to my experiences, I do not feel the cotton ceiling has hindered me in finding people, however I do know of lesbians who claim they “hate penis.” And this is a problem. Regardless of what people say. I know people are going to try and defend this but you’re wrong. It invalidates my identity as a woman. It wreaks of penis = male/ vagina = female. It says “you’re not a woman in my eyes.” I do not apologize for what I’ve written. This is reality, and denying that it happens, and that this is really what it means is trans-misogynistic.

http://omniscienttsunami.tumblr.com/post/19785172119/ok-fuckers-lets-try-this-again

86. Lily - March 25, 2012

I think I’m gonna be sick. people actually buy that bullshit?

yo pricks. Lesbians are female and.we don’t. like. dick. end of.

God.

87. smash - March 25, 2012

Well at least they’ve come out with it.

Great video– thanks for mentioning it IBP.

88. Nicky - March 25, 2012

So true, and they also think Biology and Nature is Transphobic too. It’s a shame that most trans can’t seem to see past the biological and nature barrier as well.

89. jen - March 25, 2012

So you cannot feel secure in your identity as a “woman” until the other 7 billion people on earth agree to abolish the biological sex categories of male and female. That’s not much to ask for.

Good luck to ya, bro. You’ve got your work cut out for ya.

Signed,

Proudly Transphobic Since the Cotton Ceiling Debacle of 2012

90. Lily - March 25, 2012

btw Smash, thank you.. for your kind comments. I hate that they were awful to you too

that’s true, at least they’ve come out and said it. ugh.

91. Rusty - March 25, 2012

Wow. Penis=male is a “little message” given to us by “society” that we’ve “internalized” without even realizing it.

SERIOUSLY? I hope they keep saying stuff like this – it’s these kinds of illogical non-sensical completely counter-intuitive pomo theories, presented as scientific fact, that are gonna get Feministe/ing libfems scratching their heads and saying “Ok now wait a minute, this just might be bullshit.” And then when they politely and apologetically challenge the asinine and anti-feminist notion that sex is a social construct and gender is biological, they’ll get accused of being a transphobic bigot. And then? “Hmmm, maybe those hated radfems are on to something.”

92. Darcie - March 25, 2012

Biology and nature is transphobic in much the same way that biology and nature is anti-business. Objecting to mining practices that put chemicals in the ground causing my tap water to catch fire may very well be anti business, but so be it. Call me transphobic and I get this image in my head of those old black and white films of school children riding their bicycles behind trucks spewing out clouds of DDT, smiling and waving for the camera. I’m not gonna smile and wave and follow your truck. I’m not going to poison my well for fear of being called a bigot.

93. Lily - March 25, 2012

so I made a tumblahh and I’m getting hated on already

join me? thecottonceiling.tumblr.com

the comments are gold though. “spaesbawlzthetumblargh says: hi, i am a lesbian and i like dick….I am a lesbian, because every experience I have had with dicks involved a female. No amount of radfem shit you want to spew is going to change that. ”

lolol
I want to cry. our identity has been colonized by these postmodernist creeps. anyone can be a lesbian!

94. jen - March 25, 2012

“This is reality, and denying that it happens, and that this is really what it means is trans-misogynistic.”

Among the many other things these guys fetishize (and appropriate) is victimhood. They seem to think that victim status confers some sort or infallible wisdom. They think it gives them the final say in defining other people and reality itself. I’m reminded of the Karl Rove associate who said “when we act, we create our own reality.” He was wrong, and so is this guy.

It’s crazy talk, and the Feministe/ing libfems need to consider its potential for (further) damaging the credibility of the left. As we learned during the Soviet era, you can force people to pretend a lie is the truth, but you can’t force them to do it forever. Eventually people get fed up and rebel.

The other thing the libfems need to understand is that lurking beneath the MTFs’ pomo/queer theory gibberish is just the same “you think you don’t want it, but you really do” bullshit that women, and especially lesbians, have heard from straight men forever. It’s reprehensible to expect lesbians to humor it from trans women.

95. Sue D. Nim - March 25, 2012

Lesbians, why can’t you just stop thinking about your needs and desires! Just condition yourself to get over your repulsion to a penis in your orifaces and learn to think about what what the penis likes for once in your life. Is that really so hard to do?

Yes, I am being facetious. Wish I could say the same of this writer below:

http://sonneillonv.tumblr.com/post/19764122189/individual-nonattraction-vs-group-nonattraction-re

“Personally I just don’t get group nonattraction . . . It’s like yes, I get that the unknown is frightening to you, but I really don’t see why it’s so hard to say, ‘I’m working off total ignorance here, but I want to share something wonderful with you, so can you help me out with learning how to give you pleasure?’ Or, with less verbosity, ‘does this feel good?’ Not that freaking hard.”

FCM - March 25, 2012

Sex with penises is not sex, its masochism. Or something. And you don’t need penetration or full penetration to get pregnant. It’s so not about pleasure, although penis-people who catch friction inside other people and ejaculate into them do seem to conflate penetration with pleasure. Gee, I wonder why?

96. Lily - March 25, 2012

Can I just take a moment to say how crushed I feel by queer theory?

Lesbians have literally had our identity wrenched away in mainstream feminism.

I didn’t realize that anyone aside from self-aggrandizing men like Serano actually believed in “the female dick”. Gross.

I guess I was naive..

97. Sue D. Nim - March 25, 2012

Wondering what a penis-person thinks is TRANSPHOBIC!! Haven’t you learned yet? You’re supposed to listen to what the penis person thinks and then parrot what he says.

So save your soul and repeat the gospel with me:

“A tranny said it, I believe it, that settles it.

(Or else you’re transphobic).”

98. Darcie - March 26, 2012

Why let a little thing like all woman-kind stand in the way of progress, that is so transphobic/ trans-misogynistic, right?

pomo rabbit-hole, wtf? the female penis, really?

99. jen - March 26, 2012

There you go. “Tranna locuta, causa finita.”

I have definitely noticed the difference in tenor between the radfem and MTF commenters. The radfem arguments are logical and written in clear language. Agree or disagree with them, there’s no attempt to snow you. The MTFs veer between childish insults, ad hominems and convoluted pomo/queer theory casuistry. Bullshit artistry.

100. Nicky - March 26, 2012

Like me, I’ll fight tooth and nail to keep the intersex community free of the trans cult. The only way they will the trans cult will take it from me is if they pry it from my cold hard hands. I know these trans cultist will stop at nothing and they are doing the same to women and lesbian. The can call me bigot or transphobic all they want, but at least I have the brain power to see past their bullshit they are trying to peddle to people.

101. Lilly (@Bruce_Lilly) - March 26, 2012

This is what happens when a bullshit dogma meets reality. Its followers whine, accusing others of tranzzzphobia or even of racism (which has nothing to do with the topic you idiots) but in the end they have no arguments. No reasonable explanation of why -after thousand years of human evolution -penises are suddenly female. That’s where you can get them (once again with science and logic).
The one and only thing which protects their crazy dogma and blatant homophobia is screaming transphobia. That’s it. That’s the reason they behave like aggressive dogs if you don’t by their bullshit fantasy. They have nothing other to defend their dogma.

102. Lily - March 26, 2012

I know this affects all FAAB women, but it’s cruel how mainstream feminism has thrown lesbians under the bus..

103. Lilly (@Bruce_Lilly) - March 26, 2012

their arguments:

1. Penises are MALE genitals – transphoooobia!
2. lesbians are attracted to females – transphoooobia!
3. No amount of surgery and
hormones makes you female – transphoooobia!
4. Just because you call a penis
“a strapless” or use other words – transphoooobia!
its still a male male reproductive
organ
5. Forcing lesbians to love dick is – transphoooobia!
homophobe and unethical

the list can go on and on… So how scared are you of a dogma where its followers can ONLY protect it by turning the oppressors into victims?

104. sheela - March 26, 2012

Casuistry is the word! Exactly what it is. And, Jen, your comment earlier was spot on:

‘Among the many other things these guys fetishize (and appropriate) is victimhood. They seem to think that victim status confers some sort or infallible wisdom. They think it gives them the final say in defining other people and reality itself. ‘

That’s right. And their line is that women, qua women, are always oppressors in relation to their powerlessness as white, middle class, educated, first world male trans. Hmmm, right.
What they’re trying to do is appropriate feminist (and other radical) language in a desperate bid for that victim status they want so much. But it’s history repeating itself. Some of us older rlfs will remember being almost as bad, back in the day, full of youthful bullshit (at least I sometimes was!) Anyone older here remember women with long hair excluded from women’s discos, etc?. The insane identify politics? The awareness of oppression without understanding ways we were privileged? That kind of stuff did genuinely happen… Well we may be more sorted now , more focused on the real issues , real oppression. But what is so strange is seeing a bunch of (mostly) privileged men now desperately trying to get in on the act.

The ftm friends I have are not at all like this bunch (not that they would be friends if they were!). They are dykes, lesbians, beautiful women who have made decisions with which I personally disagree. But as people raised female (unlike the mtfs), they are capable of disagreement, difference and reasoned communication without constant tantrums (or demands for sex)

105. thebewilderness - March 26, 2012

I read that tumbler and I am wondering once again if they hear what they are saying.
Gay men need to examine why they are not attracted to women as a group because … I didn’t get that part.
Lesbians need to examine why they are not attracted to men as a group. Again, no reason given, just cuz.
Heterosexual women need to examine the unfair limitations of their heterosexuality. Cuz yanno, ladybrainz.
This assumes that gay men and lesbians never spent effing years going round and round asking themselves whywhywhy am I like this when the world hates what I am.
No indeed. This is a brand new idea that Transpersons just thought up to get everyone else to examine why they are attracted to the people they are attracted to instead of being attracted to the people Transpersons want them to be attracted to.
Clearly everyone must be must be transphobic including Transpersons who don’t want to have sex with Transpersons.
I don’t know how much you know about MRAs alpha beta mangina routine but I think the similarities are awesome.

106. cherryblossomlife - March 26, 2012

“No indeed. This is a brand new idea that Transpersons just thought up ”

LOL, yep.

Trans women are the most homophobic group of people I’ve ever come across.

107. RoseVerbena - March 26, 2012

@cherryblossomlife: “So *how* is it that this particular group of women have been so brainwashed?”

I think it all goes back to the socialization of women to be “nice” and “fair” being used against them by unscrupulous males.

Just as religious con artists prey on the elderly Christian ladies who have been socialized to “give to the needy”, these “trans” whacktivists prey on women who have been socialized into an inordinate desire to please and help “oppressed” men.

“Trans women” portray themselves as The Most Oppressed People On Earth and some women fall for it.

FCM - March 26, 2012

Rose, that’s undoubtedly part of it, but the Christian grandmas or whatever aren’t the ones buying this. It’s ONLY the fun fems. The same ones who think its possible FOR WOMEN to fuck our way to freedom. The same ones who are dependant on liberal men and liberal politics for finances or sex or companionship, which politics happens to be the rhetoric of “equality” but which is actually about making women more comfortable living in a male centric universe, so that we are more able and willing to serve men in every way. The variable is in there, I think.

108. ibleedpurple - March 26, 2012

I’m reminded of the Karl Rove associate who said “when we act, we create our own reality.” He was wrong, and so is this guy.

Yes, yes, yes! Humans are structure-building animals. There is always a given that you must start from. “No man is an island”. Hey, if women didn’t exist, MtTs wouldn’t exist either. So our trans friends should just keep on deconstructing themselves until the point of their own disappearance. Well, that leads me to…

Among the many other things these guys fetishize (and appropriate) is victimhood. They seem to think that victim status confers some sort or infallible wisdom.

Yes, again! Many of them are not really stigmatized either. An MtT who knows that he can never be a woman and opts for “transwoman” is stigmatized, alright – you just have to keep on lying and lying and lying to hide what you are when the going gets tough. However, some of these types… Well, first, a stigma is something that is put on you for being a deviant. For example, feminists emphasizing how popular with the menz they are are acting out of stigma. But when you claim that you are trans and a woman at the same time you are actually saying that you are stigmatized and non-stigmatized. A trans who goes “Hey, I am a woman” is destroying his hated self to make space for a social construct. Society has already annihilated that guy proper – he “is” a “woman”. When you already are a woman you have nothing to hide, so no stigma. They are basically saying over and over again: “I am not a woman and that makes me really really mad. So I will pull out my stigma card to make you all shut up about it!”

“Personally I just don’t get group nonattraction . . . It’s like yes, I get that the unknown is frightening to you, but I really don’t see why it’s so hard to say, ‘I’m working off total ignorance here, but I want to share something wonderful with you, so can you help me out with learning how to give you pleasure?’ Or, with less verbosity, ‘does this feel good?’ Not that freaking hard.”

Yeah, it’s not that hard for lesbians to be unpaid prostitutes (where sex is work!) for The Cause.There is also a worrying lack of understanding that there actually might not be any desire to make someone else feel good.

There you go. “Tranna locuta, causa finita.”

jen, I think I love you.

109. ibleedpurple - March 26, 2012

Well, my favourite part about the clip was how Michael Palin goes from chartered accountancy to banking because he thinks the latter is exciting while being anything but. Kind of reminds me of liberal/sex-positive feminists calling themselves transgressives because they get whipped every Sunday by their partner and are therefore totally subverting the dominant paradigm (not).

Always remember: Monty Python are transphobic because Stan wants to be woman. rofl

110. T - March 27, 2012

You know, I just tried to comment on the Cotton Ceiling yesterday on Feministe.

With no profanity, but directly to the point, I said trans women (men to women) are nothing more than MEN IN DRESSES.

And they wouldn’t print it. They kept “moderating” my remarks.

When I said I’d just as soon go to another site, the moderator, whoever that is, said something ‘that’s fine with me’, or something snotty

The transwomen (M2W?) on that blog are belligerent and have a huge sense of entitlement, and the moderator protects them

FCM - March 27, 2012

Yes, the truth is transphobic. Because idiocy. :)

111. Darcie - March 27, 2012

“Personally I just don’t get group nonattraction . . . It’s like yes, I get that the unknown is frightening to you, but I really don’t see why it’s so hard to say, ‘I’m working off total ignorance here, but I want to share something wonderful with you, so can you help me out with learning how to give you pleasure?’ Or, with less verbosity, ‘does this feel good?’ Not that freaking hard.”

Between “she was asking for it” and “I’m working off total ignorance here, but…,” we’ve just stumbled upon the post-modern evolution of woman as “Virgin/Whore”

112. BadDyke - March 27, 2012

“This is a brand new idea that Transpersons just thought up to get everyone else to examine why they are attracted to the people they are attracted to instead of being attracted to the people Transpersons want them to be attracted to.”

“however I do know of lesbians who claim they “hate penis.” And this is a problem.”

In a weird way, you can see why they were always going to end up here. The trans insistence that they ALWAYS WERE women in the head, that genitalia/hormones etc don’t matter (because not everyone can afford the surgery), was going to end up with that we as lesbians SHOULD be attracted to women-in-the-head as well (i.e. them). Biology and biological sex was always going to get a rough-ride, once they realised that the whole strategy of trying to ‘prove’ they had lady-brains using MR scans wasn’t as easy as they thought, or trying to sell themselves as intersex.

So, sex-class WOMEN, to be dismantled and replaced by jenduh.

HomoSEXuality to be dismantled and replaced by homogender/heterogender/queer/whatever.

But what they never seem to question, no matter how many times I look, is analysing the influences of their own upbringing as male. Indeed, gets you labelled twanzphobic too if you even mention that they have male genes/male organs/male socialisation.

What it is to be a woman, surely one of the basic questions of our existence (given that the men had already appropriated ‘what it is to be a human (i.e. a man)), is now being appropriated by the men as well, not just now what we SHOULD be (i.e. when we weren’t doing it RIGHT), but now what it IS as well — what it IS, according to the man, to be a woman and to be a lesbian.

113. Nicky - March 27, 2012

Yeap and they try to use the Intersex excuse to sell themselves, but what it dose, it pisses off intersex people like me because it co-opts and misappropriates intersex people’s identity. Trans have been known to use fake science and pseudoscience to prop up their agenda. Which get’s disproven time and time again.

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