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Is “Joe the Plumber” a Transwoman? December 19, 2009

Posted by FCM in entertainment, gender roles, pop culture, self-identified feminist men, thats mean, trans.
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EDIT:  this video was removed from youtube but is available here.  its worth the watch.  click through to observe joe the plumber in his natural habitat (embarrassing himself and speaking out of his ass) and continue below:

heres a video of a male speaker demonstrating a facet of male-privilege: demanding respect.  he thinks that just because he is alive, and conscious, that he has the right to espouse his opinion (on a topic he clearly knows nothing about), and to be taken seriously, and to not be criticised, to boot! 

i think we can all agree that joe is male, and he is demonstrating male privilege in this video.  because from the time he was born he was never told otherwise, this man clearly thinks that hes not only entitled to his asinine opinion about *whatever* (insert any opinion on any topic) but also the god-given right to “not be chastised for it.” joy behar is no feminist, but she is an outspoken woman and she knows better. women are used to being criticised, chastised, silenced, and everything up to and including being threatened, raped, tortured and killed when we speak out, or “act up.”  men arent. FULL STOP.

so knowing what we know about male privilege and how it works, including who has it and who doesnt, watch the video.  then, read up on the behaviors and actions that make up transactivism, and utterly define transwomen to a “T” including agendas and communication styles, and tell me: is joe the plumber a TRANSWOMAN?  because thats exactly how many transwomen behave, when they arent getting the respect they want demand, and the freedom from criticism they have been used to, all their lives.

now, i dont really think that joe the plumber is a transwoman, but in all honesty, he could be. he could be a non-operative (ie. still has his dick); lesbian (ie. still fucks women with the dick he still has); male-sexed, male-gendered, and male-identified transwoman.  in other words, inside his own mind, he “feels” at odds with everything he says, feels, thinks, and sees in the mirror, but chooses not to do anything about it.  ok. now, for those of you who are still with me: should this person be allowed to use a womens restroom, if the desire overcame him to do so?  why or why not?

in other words, is the only thing that *makes* him *not* trans is that he self-identifies doesnt-not-self-identify as a man?  honestly.  what makes him a man, and not a non-operative lesbian male-sexed male-gendered male-identified transwoman?

but my main point is this, and it explains why transwomen and aggressive, entitled men behave exactly the same under similar circumstances, and the similarities are utterly uncanny.  joe the plumber isnt a transwoman.  transwomen are men.  period.

Comments

1. dirt - December 19, 2009

ALL males have male privilege ALL the time, the more masculine the male is the more privilege is heaped upon him and the more privilege he gains the more privilege he demands.

Thats the problem with the myth about trannification. Regarding males only, your average moron in the street is lead to think men who trannify are pansified homo men. Pansified homo men who are obviously men and have male privilege, being pansified, they rank lower on the male privilege scale(misogyny in action) and learn early on there proper place among men. MANLY men however loaded up with heaps and piles of privilege never shut their fucking mouths especially around women. Their piles of privilege gives them the idea they should be listened to and listened to by women.

These “manly men” would be the last men your run of the mill person would think would trannify, but we rad lez fems know these are the Mtf men in our fucking woman’s spaces trying to tell US how to be women! They are the majority of the men who trannify, straight white overly male privileged men! In all my years of dealing the trans community, its very rare to see the pansified homo male who trannifies open his mouth, even in Mtf space. Because Mtf spaces are DOMINATED with hetero dudes, the homophobia in Mtf spaces is rampant along with racism and classism.

So yeah I could see Joe here being a “trans” woman, because he physically fits the type of man who trannifies. Joe here would have about as much chance as “passing” as an average women as most of the dudes in the Mtf community. ZERO!

dirt

2. donteatthefishsticks - December 19, 2009

“the behaviors and actions that make up transactivism” apparently consist solely of demanding access to women’s spaces, and these behaviours and actions “define transwomen (sic) to a ‘T'”, since, after all, all trans women are trans activists!

factcheckme - December 19, 2009

dirt, once again your experience with this community astounds. i hadnt thought of it being the most manly-men who trannify, as you say, although something never sat right with me with the notion of “i want, therefore i shall have!” that is so clearly driving not only the decision to transition in the first place, but to demand a voice in womens and feminist spaces. not to mention these people having the financial and other resources to treat themselves to non-necessary medical treatment. thats such a male-privileged, entitled mentality, it just screams out at you that either these *arent* the sissified gay men talking, or else they have somehow found their balls, as it were, after transitioning into women.

thanks for shedding some light on that, for real. and the thought of joe trying to “pass” made me LOL. thanks for posting.

factcheckme - December 19, 2009

yeah thats a good point fishsticks. its the ones that dominate the online and feminist communities that are the WORST…although they have bullied most of us into believing that they speak for *all* transwomen. and fucking threatened and extorted and name-called and victim-postured until the feminists, lesbians, and queers accepted that we are actually cis-privileged to boot!

as dirt says, its the most manly men who trannify in the first fucking place. joe the plumber *is* one of you, or he could so easily be. SO. EASILY.

3. Miska - December 19, 2009

joe the plumber isnt a transwoman. transwomen are men. period.

Ooh, FCM, you’re gonna cop it for that one!

But the most important thing is that you are right. And I love how you threw in that question about whether Joe the Plumber should get access to women-only spaces, if he “self-identifies” as a woman.

Your post sums up why I think trans-activism in feminism is fundamentally dishonest. Transwomen insist that THEY ARE WOMEN! And that we ACCEPT THIS! And NOT QUESTION THIS!

In other words, they behave like men. Oh, the irony.

Sheila over at UP’s has written about how trans “lesbians” take over lesbian spaces, and trash it up with porno talk and intimidate all the FAB lesbians into silence and resentment. A woman left a comment on my blog about her women-only writing group, which allowed some transwomen in, but straight away they rewrote the rules and took it over – and then when some women complained, the transwomen cried TRANSPHOBIA!

It’s exactly as you say. They’re here to us tell us how it is, and we must not criticize them. Male privilege, indeed.

Transwomen are men.

4. Miska - December 19, 2009

“the behaviors and actions that make up transactivism” apparently consist solely of demanding access to women’s spaces, and these behaviours and actions “define transwomen (sic) to a ‘T’”, since, after all, all trans women are trans activists!

It’s true that the worst trans-activists are the most vocal and prominent. There are trans-activists (and transwomen) who don’t buy into this nonsense.

But where are they holding the shouty trans-activists accountable for their behavior? Where are they saying “You don’t represent me, so shut up!” If they cared at all about female people, they would see how their trans “sisters” are bullying us, and trashing our political movement and they would call this out.

But they don’t. And I understand that transwomen who don’t tow the party line cop a lot of flak from the trans community. But in this day and age of anonymous blogs, that is no excuse.

By staying silent they are giving their tacit approval, and that makes them almost as bad.

factcheckme - December 20, 2009


But where are they holding the shouty trans-activists accountable for their behavior? Where are they saying “You don’t represent me, so shut up!” If they cared at all about female people, they would see how their trans “sisters” are bullying us, and trashing our political movement and they would call this out.


thats a great point miska. where are all of these allegedly benign and reasonable transwomen? are we supposed to believe that they dont have internet access? ok, maybe they dont. not everyone is an internet-addicted westerner with a lot of free time on their hands, afterall. but to the extent that there *are* transwomen or even transmen online who dont agree with the silencing tactics and abuse dished out by transactivists online, they really should say something. i have had two (one MTF, one FTM) on this blog who said anything remotely reasonable, or called out transwomen for being bullies, and failing to take a listening role. other than that, its crickets.

5. polly - December 20, 2009

Boy are you in trouble FCM. Really though, you have a point that gets ignored completely by pieces like this one.

http://www.thefword.org.uk/blog/2009/10/feminism_in_lon_3

The difference between a non op trans woman and Joe the Plumber is of course self identity. Now I don’t think we should suggest for a moment (because I don’t believe it’s true) that that self identity is a matter of whim or choice. Trans people genuinely DO suffer greatly as a result of their gender dissonance. And I’m going to add once again, because it bears repeating, that no RL trans woman I’ve ever met is an arse like the online lot. When I told a trans woman I objected to be being referred to a trans woman as a counsellor, she said she quite understood why I’d want to be referred to someone who shared my experience. So maybe the headline should be “Is Joe the Plumber an online trans activist”.

However respecting someone’s beliefs/feelings are not the same as sharing them. In the piece I linked to women who say they would feel uncomfortable sharing a workshop on sexual abuse with male bodied people are told their feelings are of no account, because transwomen ARE women.

In the definition of the author of the piece, maybe. In the definition of millions of other women – who have rights too – woman = adult female human being, so transwomen emphatically are NOT women.

If I meet someone who is a christian, respecting their belief would consist of not saying derogatory things about it in their presence, and respecting their right to hold it. I am however still allowed to tell them that I am an atheist.

As a gender atheist, (I seem to remember making this point before) I understand that some people feel they have a gender identity that is very real to them. However it’s not very real to me, and I therefore have no obligation to take it on board, any more than I have a duty to become a christian so as not to hurt people’s feelings. We are not obliged to affirm other people’s reality as authentic.

So without the inner reality, a trans woman is the same as any other male bodied person. And a practical question, that yet again I’ve raised a million times before and got no answer too. How do you CHECK someone’s inner reality? How do you know a male who wants admission to a workshop where women talk about their experiences of abuse GENUINELY identifies as a woman?

You can’t know. End of.

6. polly - December 20, 2009

And I have seen this happen BTW, not in a sexual abuse workshop but in the ‘women’s space’ at Manchester Pride. It’s open to self identified women, and basically you get men in there.

7. polly - December 20, 2009

And yes the benign and reasonable trans women DO exist, but if they hold the trans activists accountable they are given shit for it, believe me. So mostly they don’t bother.

8. polly - December 20, 2009

I think the point being made at Miska’s – why are the likes of Lisa Harney not attacking the racist/misognist abuse directed at Arooo, when they are normally quite happy to direct charges of racism at others for their own purposes.

9. polly - December 20, 2009
10. polly - December 20, 2009
11. polly - December 20, 2009

A an example of the “race red herring” from Ms Harney here…

I’ll acknowledge that trans women have experienced male privilege. But, and this is huge, most of us grow up absorbing mixed signals. We perceive ourselves as girls, but we have boys’ bodies and are treated as boys. Many of us are feminine, and the world is not kind to those seen as feminine boys. So, we grow up, seeing ourselves as girls, seeing what’s expected of girls, absorbing that, seeing what’s expected of boys, and trying to mask ourselves with that. We can’t help the absorbing, nor do I think would we want to. We have to do the masking, it’s a matter of survival. I know that I was aware of male privilege – I could see how other girls were treated, how boys were treated, and how I was treated. I didn’t know it was called male privilege, and I probably didn’t spot every instance. I know that getting bullied from kindergarten through the 12th grade, that being mocked for being gay, that hating every minute of being seen as a boy, did not give me the kind of upbringing one would expect a cisgender boy to experience. But further, that statement underlies the assumption that genitals trumps everything – that every male-bodied child grows up the same, that every female-bodied child grows up the same, and that other factors don’t matter. That class, race and other factors don’t have any effect – or if they do acknowledge that other factors are important, growing up trans is still dismissed as “growing up with uncomplicated male privilege.”

No it doesn’t Lisa, do keep up. A black woman is less privileged than a black man. A third world woman is less privileged than a third world man. A lesbian is less privileged than a gay man. A working class woman is less privileged than a black man, THAT’S what it means. It doesn’t mean there aren’t other forms of privilege it just means that a woman will always be LESS privileged than an otherwise equivalent male. FFS. The lack of ability to reason is the most annoying thing about these ‘arguments’.

Growing up trans is growing up with uncomplicated male privilege because male privilege is based on BEING MALE, not on anything else.

factcheckme - December 20, 2009


FFS. The lack of ability to reason is the most annoying thing about these ‘arguments’.


no kidding. its *almost* as if there is no intelligence requirement at all, to participate in discussions on the internet. snark.

factcheckme - December 20, 2009

that is an excellent link polly, thanks. heres an excerpt:


So transsexual women need mentors who will be totally honest (as well as understanding and kind). They need to be shown the boundaries, to learn about changing inappropriate behavior, to understand that the women’s/lesbian community is very different from the way men perceive it to be. And they need help in letting go of male culture. It is a hard, painful path to follow but, for us, it is the most important journey of all — and we can’t make it unless someone helps us.

But what about those trans-women who won’t take that journey? We all know who they are. Those who continue to flout the conventions, trash feminist issues and ride roughshod over anyone who crosses them. What about them?

Well, I believe that the deal is this:

Being accepted into the lesbian community is a gift that can only be given by others. And it is a gift we have to earn — by respecting difference, by behaving appropriately and by understanding how to fit in. If an individual won’t make that effort, if they insist purely on membership “by right”, then they do not deserve acceptance. There can be no excuse for arrogant, confrontational behavior from some individuals. Such people not only cause damage to the community, they also undermine the effort that the rest of us are making.


except for the part about basically STILL demanding/expecting that born-women educate them…i think this transwoman has it right. i am not sure what i would change because i dont think shes wrong about transwomen truly needing mentors to guide them through. they cleary DO need this. but the expecting women to do 101 with them still pisses me off.

http://www.rapereliefshelter.bc.ca/issues/transsexuals_UK.html

12. polly - December 20, 2009

Oh and all those who are maintaining women don’t get raped in toilets might want to read this.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/dec/20/nick-cohen-rape-jury-law

13. Lots of links … « fab matters - December 20, 2009

[…] FCM over at Femonade wrote a post called “It’s Pat!-Privilege”, which wasn’t even about trans-activism, but it was derailed into a long discussion about it anyway. She has followed that up with a post entitled  “Is “Joe the Plumber” A Transwoman?” […]

14. TBL - December 20, 2009

I loved that article – thanks Polly. It was, indeed, sensible. I also picked up on that point, fcm, of the need for mentors – but perhaps if those mentors were within the trans community? Rather than expecting FAB women to do all the work.

The response was very telling, I thought. Such a lot of mangling of concepts and language, and no evidence of critical thought whatsoever. Also, I keep seeing this point about ‘political lesbianism’ which really makes me laugh. Here we go:

Now, for a cis woman, the only requirement for getting into the lesbian community is for her to say she’s a lesbian. Thanks to lesbian feminism, she might not even need to be an actual lesbian to get in on this, she can take the identity for political reasons, and for many women (including many lesbians), this is acceptable. Personally, as a lesbian, I find it pretty awful that heterosexual women are willing to claim the lesbian identity on the basis of refusing to sleep with men, rather than desiring to sleep with women. However, they get a free pass into lesbian country because they were born with a vagina. Now, trans women on the other hand, are supposed to earn our way into the lesbian community? Seriously? Even when we’re legitimately attracted to other women?

Rather conveniently side-stepping the point that lesbians are sexually attracted to WOMEN. So a ‘political’ lesbian gets a ‘free pass’ just because she has a vagina? LOLZ! Yeah, I think lesbians do kind of prefer vaginas to, you know, the other thing.

15. TBL - December 20, 2009

I watched this the other night:

http://www.channel4.com/programmes/tears-tiaras-and-transsexuals/4od

It’s about a transsexual beauty pageant. One of the things that interested me most, in what was kind of an odd programme, was that these transsexuals who were supposed to be ‘the most beautiful transsexuals in the world’ nearly all described themselves as ‘men’ or ‘guys’. Some of them described themselves as men, and then at other points said ‘women’. Some of them said they were men, no question. One said ‘I’m not a man. You might want to call me a woman, I don’t know. But I’m definitely not a man.”

I was kind of surprised, because having been immersed in this issue for a while now, all I’ve heard is trans folk saying ‘we ARE women’ – and then all these transsexuals really seemed to have very little problem with saying they were men, or at least, not women.

16. Miska - December 20, 2009

That’s the problem, isn’t it – this transwoman (though reasonable) still puts the burden of education on women. That’s undeniably male privilege at work – expecting women to take on the nurturing, care-giving role (while always being ‘understanding’ and ‘kind’, of course).

Sheila pointed out that if trans-activists want to get a real dialogue going with lesbians for instance, the way to do it is not to blare loud music at them via camp trans, but they could start something of their own – and do all the cooking and the cleaning and care-giving for a change, and *invite* lesbians to attend and take part. A good faith gesture, in other words.

But while mentoring would definitely help transwomen mitigate their entitled, aggressive behavior it still wouldn’t make me accept them as women. As Polly points out with the religion analogy – no one has to change their beliefs just so someone else’s feelings don’t get hurt. (And even if I tried, I couldn’t actually change my beliefs, so any admission that they are really real women would be dishonest on my part).

17. TBL - December 20, 2009

I’m just beginning to realise how much this aggressive ‘I’m a woman!’ stance has to do with wanting access to lesbians. I’ve noted a few times the focus some trans activists have on stating their ‘legitimate’ lesbianism, as opposed to ‘political’ lesbianism as practised by het, FAB women. They make this distinction so as to assert that they are ‘real’ lesbians because of their genuine sexual attraction to women. But hey, isn’t there another group of people that has a genuine sexual attraction to women? Oh yeah, heterosexual MEN!

Reading Sheila’s posts on this has made it much more obvious (to me, het and not always hip person) that so much of this is really about trying to get sexual access to lesbians. And then the anger and resentment about not being able to get what they want and expect to have. And also the brainwashing/cult-style repetition that they do, as if you repeat something enough times people start to believe it.

factcheckme - December 20, 2009


Personally, as a lesbian, I find it pretty awful that heterosexual women are willing to claim the lesbian identity on the basis of refusing to sleep with men, rather than desiring to sleep with women. However, they get a free pass into lesbian country because they were born with a vagina. Now, trans women on the other hand, are supposed to earn our way into the lesbian community? Seriously?


HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA omg TBL. that made me laugh and laugh. why not rephrase it honestly: “personally, as a heterosexual man…” umm…because there is no feminist currency in that identity, and feminists and lesbians wont listen to you? feminist currency = privilege (or rather, lack of it). these fucking transwomen have it down pat dont they? i mean, if one wasnt paying the least amount of attention that is. thank god for the radfems.

18. polly - December 20, 2009

I’m just beginning to realise how much this aggressive ‘I’m a woman!’ stance has to do with wanting access to lesbians.

Yes, because it is the ultimate arbiter of ‘womanhood’. A very large number of men, lets face it, don’t even demand humanity, or even sentience of their sexual ‘partner’.(Like those who have sex with pavements or bikes http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1567410/Man-who-had-sex-with-bike-in-court.html ). Straight/bisexual women won’t quite do either because they’re sexually attracted to males, so being with a straight/bisexual woman doesn’t really prove one’s ‘womanhood’ the same way.

Most lesbians actually aren’t feminists. And most will, out of a) basic politeness, and b)a disinclination to attack someone simply because of who they are, be nice to trans women. A woman I know used to get into big arguments with her girlfriend over this very point. So in the end she said to her “Would you go down on a transwoman?”

I think you can guess the answer.

To be a lesbian in my definition it helps not to have a penis. I don’t own the word, so people can call themselves WTF they want to. But the truth is that about 99.99% of FAB lesbians (the type who are only sexually attracted to women) agree with my definition when they’re thinking about potential sexual partners.

19. polly - December 20, 2009

Now, for a cis woman, the only requirement for getting into the lesbian community is for her to say she’s a lesbian. Thanks to lesbian feminism, she might not even need to be an actual lesbian to get in on this, she can take the identity for political reasons, and for many women (including many lesbians), this is acceptable.

This is pure bollocks. What “lesbian community” is she talking about? Political lesbianism is more or less dead and buried by now, it was a 70’s thing. And if Lisa bothered to read this, she’d see that being a attracted to men still isn’t acceptable to a lot of dykes.

http://www.lesbilicious.co.uk/community/why-do-lesbians-hate-bisexuals/

20. faemom - December 20, 2009

I’m curious why you think only men believe they have the right to say their opinion AND believe they shouldn’t be criticized for it. I’ve met plenty of women who are on the same high horse as Mr. Wurzelbacher that believe that they should be able to say anything they want and not be questioned or criticized for their opinions. I don’t think it’s male priveldge; I think it’s self-centered, unthinking jerks.

21. polly - December 20, 2009

Rather conveniently side-stepping the point that lesbians are sexually attracted to WOMEN.

what bitchez eh? refusing to have sex with someone just because they’ve got a penis.

factcheckme - December 20, 2009

anyone want to do some 101 with faemom here? me either.

22. polly - December 20, 2009

I’m curious why you think only men believe they have the right to say their opinion AND believe they shouldn’t be criticized for it. I’ve met plenty of women who are on the same high horse as Mr. Wurzelbacher that believe that they should be able to say anything they want and not be questioned or criticized for their opinions.

I’ll try. Apart from asking ‘which women, when and where’, I think you’ll find that if such women exist, they tend to be spouting male approved opinions e.g. female anti abortionists, etc, etc.

Otherwise they get slapped down pretty quickly. Meanwhile Mr. Plumber became a celebrity.

23. polly - December 20, 2009

And then the anger and resentment about not being able to get what they want and expect to have

Yes I made this point privately to someone else. The rage you hear is disrupted privilege. How DARE YOU reject me female person. Don’t you know you’re inferior? The sense of entitlement is massive, but being a trans “lesbian” is a very different deal from being a heterosexual male.

24. polly - December 20, 2009

Yet more trans co-opting of lesbians and gay men:

Threatened employers may choose to fire a transperson rather than be forced to work with them. Threatened landlords may decide to evict a transperson. Even the most fundamental portion of my identity is not mine to control; anyone at any time may choose to deny my identity and impose their own perceptions upon me. It happens every time I get called “sir”.

This has implications that go far beyond the boundaries of the trans community. How many butch lesbians have been asked to leave a washroom? How many gay males were bullied in school for being “a sissy”? How many times has a homophobic act really been motivated by the transgression of gender norms? Transgressing gender norms is one of the severest social “crimes”, and the punishment is swift and brutal. Right now, all of what I have listed above is legal. Anyone can do any of these horrible things and get away with it.

Yeah, so not really an exclusively trans phenomenon then, maybe?

http://www.straight.com/article-213065/jessica-cooper-transsexual-person-i-have-no-rights

25. faemom - December 20, 2009

Polly, I’m surprised that you haven’t met women like this. Famous ones like Ann Coulter or Arianna Huffington. Or random women you meet through your life like bloggers or, heck, both my own grandmothers. That’s the ugly beauty of American culture, most people are brought up to believe they are right to have an opinion (good), and many are deluded to think they shouldn’t be criticized for it (bad).

FCM~ I’m starting to believe the whole point of this post is so you can rile up any transwomen who come this way. You obviously are spoiling for a fight.

26. polly - December 20, 2009

Famous ones like Ann Coulter or Arianna Huffington.

Yup women who are saying what the men like. I rest my case.

factcheckme - December 20, 2009

faemom, you are the one thats looking for a fucking fight. i have already thrown your little friend out of here, for being sarcastic and demanding that my readers work with you on basic-level shit. if others here want to engage you, they are welcome to. but i am done with you, and your “fun-fem mommy” postmodern self. bye.

factcheckme - December 20, 2009

god no shit polly. she gave you the perfect examples to prove your point, and thought she was being clever while doing it. WTF is wrong with people?

27. polly - December 20, 2009

FCM~ I’m starting to believe the whole point of this post is so you can rile up any transwomen who come this way. You obviously are spoiling for a fight.

I don’t know what the whole point of this post is. I do know there are a hell a lot of us who are utterly sick of being told shit like this….

I think that political lesbianism is a theft of lesbian identity and culture.

By seemingly completely-devoid-of-a-sense-of-irony people with penises who have no difficulty in calling THEMSELVES lesbians.

But then we always say over here in the U of K that the yanks have no sense of irony.

http://lucypaw.blogspot.com/2008/09/transdyke-to-watch-out-for.html

factcheckme - December 20, 2009

its unintenional comedy isnt it? man with penis + sexual attraction to women = LESBIAN? WTF? that makes every hetero dood a lesbian, and thats unproblematic how? men have been JOKING for years that they are a “lesbian trapped in a mans body.” it was a fucking JOKE. it still is, but now the het doods are saying it with a straight face, and we arent allowed to laugh, lest we be called TRANSPHOBIC!

http://www.foulmouthshirts.com/mens-t-shirts/Lesbian%20trapped%20in%20a%20man's%20body%20T-shirt.htm

28. polly - December 20, 2009

It makes me laugh.

29. polly - December 20, 2009

But then I identify as a cow.

factcheckme - December 20, 2009

again, we are back to the dilemma posed (inadvertently) on kate hardings thread, and that TBL very insightfully addressed: if a lesbian woman finds herself in a sexual situation with another “lesbian” who turns out to have a dick…is she allowed to say NO and stop the encounter? or would that make her TRANSPHOBIC? is she supposed to “consent” to being raped, in order to maintain her feminist cred? whether she did or didnt, if she tried to discuss this encounter with other feminists, and identified this situation as probematic (or came forward as having been raped by this dood with a dick) would she be thrown out of a feminist space for being TRANSPHOBIC? this aspect of it (you know, where the rubber meets the road for FAB lesbians…in other words, REAL FUCKING LIFE) is decidedly UN-funny.

30. polly - December 20, 2009

Yeah well, in the spirit of the new Christmas No 1 (UK specific reference there)

FUCK YOU I WON’T DO WHAT YOU TELL ME.

31. TBL - December 20, 2009

Ha ha, Polly! That’s practically our new national anthem.

32. TBL - December 20, 2009

Yeah, there is just no possible justification for telling ANY woman to have sex with someone she doesn’t find attractive. A male can self-identify as a woman, but it’s the part where they expect the rest of the world to accept this self-identification as some kind of externally verifiable reality.

And the resentment and anger at rejection is something that het fab women have seen from men repeatedly, too. It is often a worrying thing when a man ‘sets his sights’ on you, and one has to try to work out how to ‘let him down gently’ – because if you let him down hard, you run the risk of his aggression and violence. Hell, you run that risk anyway.

This appropriation of womanhood in order to get sexual access to lesbians is very frightening, especially when they are using male tactics to pursue women – shaming, humiliating, physical coercion and manipulation.

33. polly - December 20, 2009

Penis people, you’re male. Ask Jasper.

http://jasperswardrobe.wordpress.com/2009/12/19/transwomen-are-treated-like-garbage-in-feminist-spaces/

BTW Jasper I ADORE you, particularly your colour sense, but lesbian = female. Thorry . And THANK YOU for using my acronym!

34. polly - December 20, 2009

I had this big debate with a straight women about this recently, about why FAB lesbians don’t want trans women in lesbian spaces. And she said ‘so it’s all about sex’ then.

No, it’s all about there are about TWO places I can think of that are for just lesbians, without anyone else around. Where for once in this bloody world, where I get abuse in the street every bloody day, I’m in the majority for once. Where we can relax without predatory arsehole M/F couples looking for a threesome, or men trying to start a fight, or perving over the dykes. And we don’t want males in there. Tough. You’ve got the rest of the world.

35. polly - December 20, 2009

And the resentment and anger at rejection is something that het fab women have seen from men repeatedly, too. It is often a worrying thing when a man ’sets his sights’ on you, and one has to try to work out how to ‘let him down gently’ – because if you let him down hard, you run the risk of his aggression and violence. Hell, you run that risk anyway.

This is very true, and the anger is going to be greater when coercion fails, if it’s worked before.

36. polly - December 20, 2009

I mean really, anyone who genuinely identifies as a woman, or as a feminist, can see the shittiness of trying to emotionally blackmail someone into sex.

37. Miska - December 20, 2009

FCM~ I’m starting to believe the whole point of this post is so you can rile up any transwomen who come this way. You obviously are spoiling for a fight.

I just can’t let this slide by.

You know what? This is some misogynistic bullshit. Every time – every damn time – a woman stands up too tall or says something too loudly and is punished for it, there will be someone who is quick to justify the punishment by declaring that “she was asking for it”. “She was looking for a fight”. “She wanted attention, well, now she got it”.

Belledame wrote exactly the same thing about the violent threats directed at AROOO – “They went looking for reaction, and they got it.”

Which is bullshit. And this kind of victim-blaming sounds awfully like the whole “She was asking for it because she was dressed like a slut” line of reasoning.

Sorry. Women are allowed to fucking TALK about stuff that AFFECTS US. About what THIS ALL MEANS FOR US. Even if it is inconvenient for trans-activists. It isn’t “looking for a fight”. I don’t see FCM running around to trans-activist blogs and “defending” herself incessantly. Her last post wasn’t even ABOUT them, but they still couldn’t help themselves from derailing.

factcheckme - December 20, 2009

thanks miska! that pissed me off too. fucking fun-fems. we arent the ones chasing the transactivists all over town harassing them are we? we are just talking amongst ourselves, and they feel the need to stalk and harass US. and anyone who is going to blame me for being abused and harassed, for speaking up on my own fucking blog can go to hell.

38. Miska - December 20, 2009

The whole thing about transwomen demanding access to the lesbian community (and by extension, sexual access to lesbians) reminds me of Loretta’s comment she left in the Shelley Lubben thread:

Does he realize that men don’t get to define women’s “consent”? That’s what every rapist wants to do: claim his idea of “consent” is valid, thus he doesn’t have to go to jail for raping her.

It’s the same thing, isn’t it?

Lesbians maintain that they don’t want to sleep with males, and that they would feel violated if they were to sleep with a “stealth” transwoman under false pretenses (I’m thinking of that recent-ish feministing discussion).

But then the trans-activists come back with “No, it’s not a violation because blah blah blah”

And when women argue that we don’t want males in our bathrooms because it would feel like a threat to our safety, they come back with “No, it isn’t a threat for you because blah blah blah”

And it’s the same with every other thing FAB women bring up. They dismiss every thing we say, and redefine our boundaries for us. Just like males always do, as described in Loretta’s quote.

But males don’t get to define what is an appropriate boundary for females, or lesbians. End of story.

39. SheilaG - December 20, 2009

Polly said:
“No, it’s all about there are about TWO places I can think of that are for just lesbians, without anyone else around. Where for once in this bloody world, where I get abuse in the street every bloody day, I’m in the majority for once.”

Amen sister!

I’m glad so many of the above commentors are talking about the sex angle, and what might be beneath the anger MTFs feel about wanting access to lesbian spaces. Really, we hve so bloody damn few of them already, so what is really with this?

As I’ve said many a time, the transwomen activists are going for radical feminist spaces and organizations, sueing them, making queer film festivals ban lesbian film makers, and also there are lesbians who have actually married transwomen, and lesbians who have married transmen.

So it is about male sexual access to the few women on earth who are not attracted to men, and who want lesbian only spaces, that are safe, sane and relaxing.

There are many transwomen who are not rude or terrible or obnoxious. I’ve met dozens over the years, but they don’t defend radical feminists, and sometimes don’t even identify as feminists. They blend quietly into mainstream communities.

And, back to the political lesbian red herring, that old chestnut has long been cooked on an open fire dating back to the 70s. It was also a way for 70s era lesbians who were too afraid to come out right away, and they could go to lesbian events. Eventually these women really did come out, but again, they were afraid. The “Michigan Womyn’s Music Festival” was named “womyn’s” as a code word for lesbian, again, because of the fear back then.

40. SheilaG - December 20, 2009

“Joe the Plumber” as a transwoman is not so far off the mark. I have met transwomen who were firefighters, a fire captain no less, helicopter pilots, really formerly macho men. It’s very very rare that you ever meet a femmy gay man who transitions into a woman, for example. I have met quite a few lesbians who transitioned to FTM, however.

There are very hetero men, who simply want to have sex with women. Just go to Jasper’s place… oh he adores Serano BTW, no surprise there. He doesn’t respect lesbian only spaces, doesn’t get radical feminism at all. I guess he’s hitting on bi women and straight women now.

So I say to these penis people who say they are transwomen, go and date bi-women or straight women.
Act like women, clean, cook, do unpaid childcare, listen, totally care for your partner, and you’ll have all the bi and straight women knocking on your door. Are you kidding, keep the penis, say you are a woman, keep the money, and then support as a woman another woman. Seems reasonable to me.

But just stay away from lesbian groups, stop trying to get into the .0001% lesbian only spaces left around town, and you’ll be fine. There are plenty of sorority women to hang with, plenty of bi and straight women’s festivals to go to…. just leave the lesbians alone, how’s that?

41. faemom - December 21, 2009

Are you really booting me out, FCM? I wonder why you have a blog that isn’t password protected and allows comments if you don’t want anyone to ask you questions or disagree with you. I know you’re trying to insult me by calling me a fun-fem mommy, but you have to try harder than that.

I mentioned those women because they are on either side of the political spectrum. I do believe you fit very well in the category of someone who believes she should not be criticized for her opinions because you have a holier-than-thou attitude believing you’re always right in your philosophy and never putting your money where you’re mouth is.

FCM, I hope and pray that your misandry dies with you because I would hate to have my children grow up in a world of hate. You’re nothing but a misandrist pig. I hope one day you’re able to move on beyond it.

Or not stay in your tiny world of hate, it balances out the misogynist blog I found a while back. I’ll go and do some real work for the feminist cause, like volunteer at women’s shelters, give to Plan Parenthood, write to my politicians, write, and raise the next generation of feminists. Goddess Bless.

42. Corve DaCosta - December 21, 2009

I couldn’t believe the title of this blog

43. polly - December 21, 2009

You know what? This is some misogynistic bullshit. Every time – every damn time – a woman stands up too tall or says something too loudly and is punished for it, there will be someone who is quick to justify the punishment by declaring that “she was asking for it”. “She was looking for a fight”. “She wanted attention, well, now she got it”.

Belledame wrote exactly the same thing about the violent threats directed at AROOO – “They went looking for reaction, and they got it.”

Which is bullshit. And this kind of victim-blaming sounds awfully like the whole “She was asking for it because she was dressed like a slut” line of reasoning.

Sorry. Women are allowed to fucking TALK about stuff that AFFECTS US. About what THIS ALL MEANS FOR US. Even if it is inconvenient for trans-activists. It isn’t “looking for a fight”. I don’t see FCM running around to trans-activist blogs and “defending” herself incessantly. Her last post wasn’t even ABOUT them, but they still couldn’t help themselves from derailing.

Yes

44. polly - December 21, 2009

Actually Sheila, you’ve got Jasper wrong. Jasper thinks Serano is talking crap, because like the kid who shouted that the emperor had no clothes, Jasper correctly identifies the lesbian objection to trans women – they’re male. Which is why I adore Jasper.

And you’re right Jasper will find plenty of women as sexual partners. It’s just that none of them will be sexually attracted to women. Because people who are sexually attracted to women don’t like penises. Just thought I’d repeat that for the comprehension challenged.

It does make me wonder though. Is Jasper or any other lesbian identified transwoman happy to have sex with someone with a penis? If not why not?

Just asking.

45. polly - December 21, 2009

Belledame wrote exactly the same thing about the violent threats directed at AROOO – “They went looking for reaction, and they got it.”

So that justifies racism and threats of rape/murder does it? Racism and threats of rape/murder are ok as long as a black woman gets uppity?

46. polly - December 21, 2009

Correction

And you’re right Jasper will find plenty of women as sexual partners. It’s just that none of them will be sexually attracted to women* ALONE. Because people who are sexually attracted to women ALONE don’t like penises. Just thought I’d repeat that for the comprehension challenged.

*yes I’m using women to mean ‘adult female human being’. It’s a commonly accepted defintion of the word. Live with it.

47. polly - December 21, 2009

I urge everyone to watch this(it’s long and rambling and the important bit comes toward the end, but stick with it).

http://emansipashun.jasperswardrobe.com/2009/12/radfem-dialogue-becoming-woman/

Yes it’s described as a ‘dialogue’ with Miska, which is arrogant when Miska didn’t consent to a dialogue, and yes Jasper doesn’t get WHY rad fems don’t want males in their spaces, but towards the end Jasper talks about not hanging around lesbian spaces and more, because the reactions and rejection from lesbians ‘made me mean’.

Yes. Exactly. The source of the anger. Rejection.

Pure and simple.

48. Nicky - December 21, 2009

Oh and you forgot to mention how these transactivist also like to say they are intersex as well. They like to claim they are intersex because they think it’s a right and a privilage for them to claim they are intersex. I have seen that happen within the Intersex community where you have these transactivist who force their way into the intersex community and demand the intersex people recognize them as an intersex person, when in reality, they are not born intersex and don’t have a verifable diagnosed intersex conditin. I have seen it and as an Intersex person, I have seen how these trans activist have silenced and shut out all oppisition from the intersex community.

factcheckme - December 21, 2009

nicky, i actually did mention that on the “sorry, sex-positive transwomen” article. thanks for underscoring that point though, because its an important one: one of appropriation, which is the trans- stock and trade.

49. polly - December 21, 2009

FCM, I hope and pray that your misandry dies with you because I would hate to have my children grow up in a world of hate. You’re nothing but a misandrist pig. I hope one day you’re able to move on beyond it.

Or not stay in your tiny world of hate, it balances out the misogynist blog I found a while back. I’ll go and do some real work for the feminist cause, like volunteer at women’s shelters, give to Plan Parenthood, write to my politicians, write, and raise the next generation of feminists. Goddess Bless.

Well you could have said that to start off with faemom and saved us a whole lot of time. I can’t speak for factcheckme, but as far as I can see the idea of having a blog on public view is so everyone can read it. And maybe the idea of having comments is to start a discussion on the topic and hear people’s view, not just to give trolls who never had any intention of starting a discussion a chance to ply their trade. But that’s just one point of view. Others are available. Do you find me trolling questioning transphobia, although I disagree with most everything they publish?

50. TBL - December 21, 2009

@Faemom: “I’ll go and do some real work for the feminist cause, like volunteer at women’s shelters, give to Plan Parenthood, write to my politicians, write, and raise the next generation of feminists.”

You won’t, though, will you? That’s the whole point. You won’t fucking stick your neck out for anything or anyone, and when someone else does, you call her a ‘misandrist pig’.

You could be doing all that stuff already, but as long as there are people around willing to pat you on the head for being a nice mommy, that’s enough for you.

‘Misandrist pig’ – what the fuck? You ARE a fucking MRA, after all.

factcheckme - December 21, 2009

thanks polly and TBL! my thoughts exactly. i would also add that most commenters who are still here HAVE been more than patient and walked the MRA, fun-fem and trans-trolls through some extremely basic stuff when they absolutely didnt have to. thats completely inconsistent with anything that faemom claims to have observed here; therefore, i suspect either that she didnt bother reading the discussions here, at all, or shes a liar. either would make her a troll.

and theres no such thing as misandry. DUH.

factcheckme - December 21, 2009


I wonder why you have a blog that isn’t password protected and allows comments if you don’t want anyone to ask you questions or disagree with you.


yeah you are right faemom. that wouldnt make a whole hell of a lot of sense would it? FFS. are you just unable to think? or is there more to it? i suspect the latter, but i also dont really care to hear about it. so, bye.

51. SheilaG - December 21, 2009

Thanks Polly for clarifying, and I’m glad Jasper gets that lesbian spaces are for lesbians, not transwomen who still have beards and penises. Honestly, he actually thought that he belonged in lesbian spaces, and obviously wanted a relationship with a lesbian, because, he’s still a hetero man underneath it all.

Why transwomen don’t seem to get this is beyond me, but again, I think it comes to men getting real mad real fast at having no sexual access to a small minority of women, and also the shock of being told NO by women, and still feeling male entitled to barge in and control all women’s groups and conversation, especially if they are radical feminist or lesbian exclusive.

But I’m glad Jasper thinks Serano is full of it.

I don’t think transwomen are going to defeat the very persistance of born women’s feminist arguments or stances, that have been well honed over the years.

We are a lot smarter than we were 30 years ago, and these kinds of discussion are so refreshing. I’m so happy when women, lesbians and feminists stick up for themselves and refused to have men or former men define anything about women. It’s about time sisters!!

52. SheilaG - December 21, 2009

Ok Polly, I followed the link to Jasper’s discussion of becoming mean because of the rejection in radical lesbian feminist spaces, and believe it or not, I think radical lesbians or women in general should be able to go to Dolores Park and not have men pester them. Remember, most public space is controlled by men. Our parks are controlled by gang banger boys, and are not safe for any women at all and most men as well.

The think is, men think that they own the spaces, that they can force themselves into these lesbian worlds, and the truth is, again, women hang together for friendship, for emotional solidarity, and because I believe women are more connective, and men just don’t want to listen to women.

Jasper should consider himself lucky that he doesn’t have to deal with mean people in the work place, places where lesbian have to actually earn a living, and deal with rampant sexism and homophobia. Places that are male dominated, places where women aren’t paid well and men are. Just think of the stuff Polly, me and other butch dykes face with straight male controlled professions, imagine that. After a hard day with the mean men, believe me, I need my sisters and women only spaces even more.

But again, I think the transwoman issue is about feeling entitled to the friendship of lesbians, or worse there is the sexual access that all men seem to demand from all women. When will women’s NO ever be heard by male people or formerly male people? My guess is they are incapable of hearing this, but at least Jasper can own up to the fact that he is not wanted in these spaces, and his job then is to find women who do want him in the spaces…. straight women and bi women. Plenty of straight women who love femmy men, fag hags and the like, but not radical feminists.

factcheckme - December 22, 2009


I couldn’t believe the title of this blog


was there a point to this post? i cant tell.

53. thebewilderness - December 22, 2009

There we go with that belief stuff again.
It is right in front of your face, just as it was in fae whosis, but no no no.
Don’t believe it.
By all means stay out of the reality based community. It is dangerous in here for those who believe instead of think.
Criminy!

54. polly - December 22, 2009

I’m not defending Jasper’s stance Sheila. S/he should simply realise that lesbians are attracted to female people, that’s a SEX, not a gender, and accept that if s/he is really serious about becoming more like a woman culturally.

But Jasper is the ONLY non MTF trans blogger who tells the truth about their motivations and is completely hated for it, by the likes of Lisa Harney and her cohorts. And I think that honesty is amazing. Really.

Lesbians are a huge threat to heterosexual men, because they render them redundant. That’s why there’s so much lesbian porn about, in which women (not really lesbians) have sex with each other, but then need a man of course. It’s a way of trying to neutralize the threat.

Another way of trying to neutralize the threat is to believe that lesbian are really sexually attracted to males and set out to prove it. This is done by ‘corrective rape’ in places like South Africa and Jamaica(and in western countries as well, it’s just not as widespread or recognized). The male bodies trans activists who are bent on invading lesbian spaces have the same motivation. I’m not saying it’s the same as rape, because we’ve already discussed how offensive such metaphors are. But it’s still a psychological destruction of women’s right to women only space, and it’s still a highly aggressive, hate filled act.

55. polly - December 22, 2009

The above should read “jasper is the only non op MTF trans blogger” BTW.

56. TBL - December 22, 2009

I watched the Jasper vid, too – amazing that he can call that a ‘dialogue’ when he spent ten full minutes talking about his feelings with nary a nod to anything on Miska’s blog!

But it does support your point, Polly, about the resentment and anger males feel when women reject them.

My fear is that resentment and anger become aggression and violence very quickly. Jasper said he stopped trying to be a lesbian (honestly that was making me laugh – the man has a full beard and everything!) when he found himself becoming ‘mean’ in response to rejection. Well, what does that mean? He was nasty, insulting, abusive, aggressive? At least he had the sense to walk away from lesbian space once he finally got the message. What worries me is that a lot of male people don’t EVER seem to get the message that women don’t want them around. They don’t listen, and they don’t believe it, because they are trained to never hear or accept the word ‘no’.

And as much as I can see this is an urgent problem for lesbians, I don’t think the answer is to try to push transsexuals onto straight women – I fear that many straight women are already married or in relationships with males who decide to ‘transition’, and those women are forced to stay in marriages that are clearly painful and where they have to do all the heavy lifting.

Then again, I suppose that is the problem with heterosexuality, that it means dealing with men in intimate situations, where their normal mode of operation is to ignore, override, abuse and spend most of their time talking about their feelings.

57. SheilaG - December 22, 2009

I must admit Polly, perhaps naievly, that I found it hard to believe a teeny tiny minority known as life time lesbians could be this huge threat to the giant hetero world, and all its power.

But it seems the trans-activists are proving me wrong. Lesbians are very powerful, and transwomen are actually trying to co-opt these previously sex with males off limits groups.

I didn’t mean in my above posts that I necessarily want to foist yet more men on hetero woman. I simply meant to say, that hetero women actually seem to like men, while lesbians do not see men as sex partners or even desirable socially most of the time.

There are a lot of women simply being terribly used by transwomen (if the women were once married to pre-transition men), and also they have been used by gay men with secret lives–N.J. governor McGreavy comes to mind, as does Mel White. Then you have men all over the world who marry women as fronts, and have gay sex on the down low. These types of men are truly reprehensible, and I feel for the women in marriages like this.

I believe this whole transwomen movement, however, is the biggest threat to lesbian spaces, because these former men are invading with the intent to have sex with lesbians, or to find lesbian partners.
This saps energy from lesbian nation, wastes our time dealing with former men, and again, takes our own agenda completely away from us. Just look how long it took for Jasper to finally leave lesbian spaces. He was at it for over a year I think, and still feels angry at lesbians just for wanting to be with other lesbians. Maybe he is more honest about his anger at women who reject men completely, however. I find his attacks on feminists particularly awful.

Young lesbians are often getting suckered by the trans arguments. Just saying you want women only space in a political context IS highly threatening to men and former male bodied people.

58. polly - December 22, 2009

What worries me is that a lot of male people don’t EVER seem to get the message that women don’t want them around. They don’t listen, and they don’t believe it, because they are trained to never hear or accept the word ‘no’.

Well exactly Maggie. So we get the 907 varieties of coercion. “But my brain’s really female, so that makes me a woman”, “You’re so transphobic if you don’t recognise me as a woman”, “If a transwoman has a penis, that makes her female”.

Yaaaaaaaaaawwwn, Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. This stuff is the POMO version of “you’re just a pricktease/frigid” Sadly playing to the least receptive audience EVER.

And as much as I can see this is an urgent problem for lesbians, I don’t think the answer is to try to push transsexuals onto straight women

I wasn’t suggesting that, merely that they are more likely to find a receptive audience among straight/bisexual women. I have met ‘genderqueer lesbians’ in relationships with non op ‘women’. But I am also hugely resentful that those ‘feminists’ pleading the trans cause who are quite happy to tell lesbians they must accept males into their spaces all overwhelmingly ID as straight/bisexual and therefore don’t exactly have the same take on males as lesbians, separatist or not.

59. polly - December 22, 2009

And the point is of course that Jasper being a ‘lesbian’ with a beard is no more ridiculous than a clean shave male bodied person in drag being a lesbian. They’re both still male. As I’ve said a hundred times, you can call yourself what you want, but other people don’t have to accept that in a personal relationship. Which is the bit that really seems to be hard for so many to grasp. If someone calls herself a lesbian and by that she means female person exclusively sexually attracted to female people, that’s what she means. She doesn’t have to redefine herself, and the type of people she can be sexually attracted to stop your feelings being hurt.

Thorry.

60. SheilaG - December 23, 2009

Polly said:
“But I am also hugely resentful that those ‘feminists’ pleading the trans cause who are quite happy to tell lesbians they must accept males into their spaces all overwhelmingly ID as straight/bisexual and therefore don’t exactly have the same take on males as lesbians, separatist or not.”

Couldn’t have said it better myself. But also, in the US, there are young lesbians who actually want to let the transwomen into the women exclusive Michigan Womyn’s Music festival… the male born people let in… but born women who want a woman only refuge are chopped liver. This stuff drives me nuts beyond peanuts and cashews😦

61. Miska - December 23, 2009

Yes it’s described as a ‘dialogue’ with Miska, which is arrogant when Miska didn’t consent to a dialogue,

Yes, I noticed that. LOL.

I’ve not had any time to respond to Jasper yet. But I think his particular case is fascinating. Jasper is the logical end-point of transgenderism – male people who haven’t “transitioned” in any concrete sense, but simply “identify as” women/lesbians. He/she (I don’t know which is the preferred pronoun) is the embodiment of this “self identity is king” business. It’s even more interesting how the trans-activists want nothing to do with him. Quite simply, they have no grounds to disassociate themselves from him, because it merely strips their own belief in identification, almighty, of any credibility.

As I’ve said a hundred times, you can call yourself what you want, but other people don’t have to accept that in a personal relationship.

I would take that even further and say that other people don’t have to accept it at all. I can call myself the prime minister, but that doesn’t mean everyone needs to grant me a seat in parliament.

Reality is built on consensus.

And if the lesbian-consensus is that Jasper or any other transwomen are not lesbians, then they are not, and they have no right to demand access to lesbian spaces / the lesbian community.

62. TBL - December 23, 2009

Heh. I must be doing something right if you’re getting me confused with Maggie!

I appreciate that it’s a lot of straight fun fems who are happy to support trans women moving in on lesbian space – and to tell lesbians they should sleep with transwomen, i.e. male bodied people! – as recently seen on kate harding’s transtastic site. I think that’s disgusting, truly.

But for straight women, attracted to male bodies, maybe it’s not so bad. But then again, they are generally not wanting to be with people who look like women, so males in feminine clothes, make up etc don’t exactly fit the straight ideal, either.

63. polly - December 23, 2009

Well I’ve got a couple of lesbian friends – both the type who are only sexually attracted to FAB women, not the political type – who don’t like women only spaces. As I’ve also said a hundred times lesbian doesn’t = feminist.

I also think that it’s probably just a matter of succumbing to relentless pressure. But ask these women (if they really are only sexually attracted to females that is) if they’d have a sexual relationship with a transwoman, even post op, and I reckon you’d get a different answer. Most young lesbians over here who aren’t into any kind of politics ) that I know would laugh in your face at the idea.

64. polly - December 23, 2009

I just left a longer response here….

http://verymadcows.wordpress.com/2009/12/23/i-love-you-for-your-mind-not-your-body/

(which is a shorthand way of saying I’ve got a new blog for my regular reader)

65. polly - December 23, 2009

Oops Sorry TBL….

66. polly - December 23, 2009

But for straight women, attracted to male bodies, maybe it’s not so bad. But then again, they are generally not wanting to be with people who look like women, so males in feminine clothes, make up etc don’t exactly fit the straight ideal, either.

I don’t think that’s entirely true though. I mean I can understand someone not liking frocks and heels cos I find them incredibly unsexy. But a bit of make up is just the gender bendy stuff that’s been going on since Mick Jagger and the Beatles got long hair, and I hadn’t noticed them going short of female interest.

67. polly - December 23, 2009

And if the lesbian-consensus is that Jasper or any other transwomen are not lesbians, then they are not, and they have no right to demand access to lesbian spaces / the lesbian community.

Well this is the exact point, a woman only disco isn’t the state. If a a group of women don’t want males in their space, said male should look for a place where self identified women ARE welcome. Instead of just screaming “that’s soooo transphobic”. It’s like me hanging round Yates’s wine lodge complaining it’s not very gay friendly.

factcheckme - December 23, 2009

yay! polly has started a new blog!

68. TBL - December 23, 2009

Yeah, you’re right, Polly. In fact, it doesn’t seem to matter what men look like at all, as far as straight women are concerned. Even the most unfortunate looking individuals can get girlfriends, so there’s no reason why wearing make up and a dress should be any kind of disadvantage. I think I just can’t get why any women are attracted to men at all anymore, because I’m so jaded and cynical about the possibility of actually having any kind of mutually enjoyable sexual relationship with a man.

69. TBL - December 23, 2009

Oh, and excellent! Polly is blogging🙂

factcheckme - December 23, 2009


it doesn’t seem to matter what men look like at all, as far as straight women are concerned. Even the most unfortunate looking individuals can get girlfriends, so there’s no reason why wearing make up and a dress should be any kind of disadvantage. I think I just can’t get why any women are attracted to men at all anymore, because I’m so jaded and cynical about the possibility of actually having any kind of mutually enjoyable sexual relationship with a man.

TBL, i agree with everything you just said here. except the part about a man wearing makeup and a dress being a suitable partner for most het women. its absolutely clear to me that just any old dick-swinging moron can get a gf (and how i wish that werent true! they dont deserve it!) but as far as i can tell, this cross-dressing stuff either happens in private in the couples home, or the guy is doing it (and god knows whatever else) on the down low. there arent many nonfeminist straight women that would put up with this from thier partner, and i think at least the radfems wouldnt put up with it either. frankly, i still think theres something very mentally (and sociopolitically) deficient about a man who would attempt this extreme gender-bendy bullshit. i daresay that most straight women WOULD appreciate some help in the kitchen and with the kids though. try THAT on for size, gender-bendy males! for real!

70. TBL - December 23, 2009

Ha ha! Brilliant point. It’s funny how the gender-bending always seems to be about outfits and sex, and never about taking on any of women’s other work, such as shopping for food, cooking, cleaning, laundry, looking after children, organising everyone’s lives, ferrying people around, remembering people’s birthdays, looking after the sick and elderly, cleaning up sick and shit, listening to everyone’s problems, paying the bills, working two jobs, household maintenance, looking after the pets and generally being a doormat for everyone else to wipe their feet on. Funny, that.

71. SheilaG - December 23, 2009

TBL — I have suggested that Camp Trans set up a hospitality tent, and cook fabulous dinners for all the women attending Michigan. Great music, fine food served. Then they’d clean up, and perhaps sing some songs, or otherwise show how they support and take care of women. Now that really would be a transwoman revolution, to care for other women, to do the work, and to not invade, disrupt or attack the women’s festival across the way.

I challenge transwomen to be the cooks and cleaners for lesbians, the support staff, the listeners. Suppose one group really did decide to treat lesbians as number one, listen to lesbian issues, and not try to dominate and take over? It’s never happened before, but that might convince me that transwomen really are women if they did something like this. What say ye all?

72. polly - December 23, 2009

Flipping eck if you need to be able to cook to be a woman Sheila, I’m out. But yeah, if you want people to like you, be nice! The trans lobby even constantly lambast those who are trying to be ‘allies’ to them, so fuck knows how they think they’re going to get round evol old crones like moi….

73. SheilaG - December 24, 2009

What I’ve learned… you can’t be nice to meanies trans or otherwise. If they blow up all the time, they are just ugly people who don’t respect women’s events. And no woman has to cook anything, I was just challenging the trans activists to actually DO something for women tangibly rather than just yelling that they are real women all the time.

Creativity might be the key here🙂

74. thebewilderness - December 24, 2009

its absolutely clear to me that just any old dick-swinging moron can get a gf (and how i wish that werent true!

You get your wish. It isn’t true.
As evidence I would direct your attention to the men who murder women because no woman will be their gf. For every one who kills there are thousands who want to.
Submit, or die, is the song of the patriarchy.

factcheckme - December 25, 2009


As evidence I would direct your attention to the men who murder women because no woman will be their gf. For every one who kills there are thousands who want to.
Submit, or die, is the song of the patriarchy.


thats a good point bewilderness. i think i got caught between two thoughts: just *about* any idiot can get a gf; and any old idiot can get *laid*. i suspect the men who murder women because none of them will date them, have frequented prostitutes and used porn. its probably where they got the idea, in the first place. 😦 submit or die is exactly right.

75. berryblade - December 25, 2009

“FCM, I hope and pray that your misandry dies with you because I would hate to have my children grow up in a world of hate. You’re nothing but a misandrist pig. I hope one day you’re able to move on beyond it.

Or not stay in your tiny world of hate, it balances out the misogynist blog I found a while back. I’ll go and do some real work for the feminist cause, like volunteer at women’s shelters, give to Plan Parenthood, write to my politicians, write, and raise the next generation of feminists. Goddess Bless.”

For once I’m glad I’m not stoned, because if I was when I read that I never would have stopped laughing. “Real Work” expression used? High-larious.

“Misandrist pig”? Does anyone else smell a M.R.A in disguise?

I’m too busy doing my “fake work” for the “cause” by graffiting witty slogans over advertisments, destroying porno mags and getting into fights with the dudes who try and street harrass me. I’M NOT A REAL FEMINISTZ ONOEZ LOLZ!!1!

{p.s Sorry for the excruciating levels of sarcasm in this post, I just couldn’t help it)

factcheckme - December 25, 2009

thanks berryblade. theres nothing like some good xmas sarcasm and MRA bashing to put me in the holiday spirit. yay! cheers!

76. m Andrea - December 26, 2009

its absolutely clear to me that just any old dick-swinging moron can get a gf (and how i wish that werent true! they dont deserve it!) but as far as i can tell, this cross-dressing stuff either happens in private in the couples home, or the guy is doing it (and god knows whatever else) on the down low. there arent many nonfeminist straight women that would put up with this from thier partner, and i think at least the radfems wouldnt put up with it either. frankly, i still think theres something very mentally (and sociopolitically) deficient about a man who would attempt this extreme gender-bendy bullshit.

Oh Houston, we got a problem. Are you saying that “only manly men” are “real men”? Why is it okay for women to wear pants and lumberjack plaid, but men can’t wear makeup and a dress? Does your version of liberation involve the irradication of all frilly crap for everybody, OR, tearing down the division between socially sanctioned gender roles? It seems to me that the cross-dressers are the only honest “gender bendy” peeps in the house.

Not that we can’t agree to disagree, but I will drag out my logic box… 🙂

77. m Andrea - December 26, 2009

Oh, if you mean there’s a fetishiness in regards to the clothes, I see what you’re probably trying to get at. Not all cross-dressers are like that, though. Not sure what the percentage is between those two subgroups, now that I think about it.

factcheckme - December 26, 2009


Are you saying that “only manly men” are “real men”?


uh, no.

factcheckme - December 26, 2009

sorry, mAndrea, it was hard for me to believe that anyone who had read my posts would say something like what you said! but, then i realized that first, you obviously *have* been reading, since you quoted directly from the comments (most people dont bother reading past the article, if they even read that) and secondly, that i discussed “gender” more thoroughly in another post, not this one. heres a link:

https://factcheckme.wordpress.com/2009/12/13/its-pat-privilege/

polly and TBL had been saying that makeup and a dress wouldnt be an obstacle to most straight men getting a partner. i had to disagree, and said that most nonfeminists and most radfems would NOT put up with that. i still think thats true, and i specifically excluded lib/fun-fems from the list, because anyone who thinks its FUN to play around with gender would probably be OK with it. gender queers obviously, too. personally, i think gender is a sham, and a distraction. and any man who thinks its FUN to play with a female gender identity then strip it off to bask once again in his male privilege can kiss my fucking ass. i would almost respect a transwoman more than a cross-dressing straight man. at least transwomen are *sort of* willing to take on the shit that comes from being female, 24/7 in addition to the clothes and hair etc. if they just wouldnt lay thier oppression at womens and feminists feet!

78. polly - December 26, 2009

Yeah you see I have to agree with m’learned friend, and like M Andrea, I’m reaching for the logic box. I have no problem with folks who are gender non conformative. I have no problem with folks who have sex reassignment surgery, as long as they don’t advocate it for anyone else. Their bodies, their lives.

What I have a massive problem with is the male bodied person who says: I have a gender identity of “woman” and that makes me female. Because that is equating “woman” (gender) with female (sex). In other words it is reifying gender.

And most of the internetz trans activists fall into the latter category. They mostly want to hang on to their penises (why wouldn’t they?) but still be regarded as female. And even if they don’t want to hang onto their penises, they will still never, ever, admit to being male. In other words they not only want to live their lives believing a fiction (no problem there, lots of people do it), they want everyone else to share in the delusion as well. And that is where the problem arises.

Always wearing makeup and a dress would be an obstacle in a lot of circles to getting a female partner, it’s true, but outside those circles it wouldn’t. And most occasional cross dressers are heterosexual and married actually, though their wives aren’t usually that happy if they find out.

I have no problem with people doing what the hell they want, quite simply, as long as they don’t tell me I have to include them in the group of people I could be sexually attracted to because of what’s inside their head.

I actually do think it’s fun to play around with gender. I love ‘feminine’ men . I love Butch women. What I object to is someone telling me that what’s inside their head trumps reality, as I see it.

79. m Andrea - December 26, 2009

i still think theres something very mentally (and sociopolitically) deficient about a man who would attempt this extreme gender-bendy bullshit.

er, that was pretty plain. Most of the cross-dressers I know, (and of course that’s limited to my personal experience, perhaps only a dozen or so) have zero thoughts that they might really have been born a girl. For them, it’s a permission giving activity which allows them to put their own ingrained domination mentally aside and experience another perspective. Perhaps I should also clarify that all of these doods are in their ’50’s or older, and are career military. So I’m seeing a particular subset and not familiar with other subsets…

And of course cross-dressers in general are easily confused with some of the transfolk, who initially claim that “they’re only cross-dressers” but after a period of years finally admit their individual reasons for not transitioning. It really is a spectrum, which is why very few distinctions are necessary between those who claim they are transsexual and those who claim they are some other type of transgender. To me, there is no “gender-bendy queer” category; those are only the people who have deliberated chosen to internalize society’s fear and loathing of feminism and so are taking the shifty road to gender liberation (which of course is never going to get them where they want to go). Suppose where cross-dressers fall on the spectrum isn’t really all that important, in the bigger scheme of things…

And yet in our society, a boy can’t wear a pink sparkly shirt unless he claims to “feel like a girl”. Seems like making it okay for a boy to be a boy and wear whatever he wants would be the ultimate goal. And so the contempt for cross-dressers would work against that.

at least transwomen are *sort of* willing to take on the shit that comes from being female,

A willingness to tolerate pain is a justification, not a logical argument. Pedophiles are willing to tolerate society’s condemnation in order to molest children, so according to that logic, we should find pedophilia acceptable.

factcheckme - December 26, 2009


Pedophiles are willing to tolerate society’s condemnation in order to molest children, so according to that logic, we should find pedophilia acceptable.


you mean, according to my logic, in which i do NOT find transwomen acceptable? i have been thinking about this all morning, and i still do not get how anyone who has read my articles on gender could interpret my stance to be “only manly-men are real men.” if thats what you thought, then no wonder you called the logic police, because that doesnt even make sense. i dont believe that, and i dont think i said that. people with DICKS are men. including people with dicks in dresses. including ones who USED TO HAVE dicks. what does manliness have to do with being a “real” man, or not? i think your second comment made more sense, and was more consistent with everything i have written here, which is that dick-having people who dress as women are fetishizing the clothing and hair/makeup etc of what they perceive as “female.” why dont they take on the other indicators of femaleness/reject the indicators of maleness, if they are so interested in bending gender? why are they so focused on the clothes? this is a serious question.


And yet in our society, a boy can’t wear a pink sparkly shirt unless he claims to “feel like a girl”. Seems like making it okay for a boy to be a boy and wear whatever he wants would be the ultimate goal. And so the contempt for cross-dressers would work against that.


sorry, but i am just not that concerned with boys and men. i am more concerned with women, as a sexual class. thats what i keep saying here, over and over again. i guess the question i would ask is, how does a boy wearing a sparkly shirt subvert gender, in a way thats going to help born-women? this is a serious question. i think a boy demanding that he has the right to wear any old goddamned thing he wants is NOT bending gender: he is demanding to have things his way, which is strikingly male. he is insisting that gender is something to be “expressed” or “subverted” but not giving any treatment to the real problem, which is that for born-women, we are funnelled into an oppresive female gender-role from the moment we are born, based on the appearance of our genitals at birth. sure, hes also saying that clothing is sexless, and thats of course true. so he wins that battle, and forfeits the war.

now, i might not feel as PHYSICALLY THREATENED by a gender-bendy male as a “schroedingers rapist” because men who have a strong belief in traditional gender roles are more likely to be violent than men who think that women are their equals. whereas transwomen clearly believe in traditional gender stereotypes (ie. that sex and gender are the same). but no, i dont think cross-dressing males are subverting gender in a way thats going to benefit born-women as a sexual class, worldwide. they are doing it in a fetishistic way that only benefits themselves, and in which they can also (ironically) express their entitlement as men. and in that way, what they are doing is similar to the MTFs. they are both men, acting aggressive and entitled, and calling it “gender subversive.” what a fucking laugh!

factcheckme - December 26, 2009

oh, PS. i also like “feminine” men, and “butch” women. i never said otherwise. but, this often has little or nothing to do with clothing. clothing is sexless. frankly, i dont see how wearing “opposite-gender” clothing is gender-subversive, at all. its pokes fun at the gender binary, and at the very notion of clothing as sexed, but it doesnt subvert it. if it did, we could have women dressing as women and calling themselves cross-dressers. of course, it doesnt work that way (although i totally feel like i am in drag when i am all dressed up, like a girl).

80. SheilaG - December 26, 2009

And that’s the bottom line. As a feminist I want to know what we can do to benefit women. If it doesn’t benefit women, then I’m not interested. Men dressing in women’s clothing does not advance the cause of women, it is simply about yet another man taking up space. Besides, women fought hard to wear clothing that was practical and more suited to being independent, but that is not a male issue at all.

factcheckme - December 26, 2009

sheila, thats an excellent point about women wanting practical and utilitarian clothing that lets us be FREE. comfortable, well fitting shoes so we can run, if we need it. trousers, instead of dresses, so the whole fucking world doesnt see our snatch if we need to bend over, or reach up, or crawl on the floor. men think gender-bending means “if girls can do it, we want to do it, too!” thats why they think they “need” to be able to wear “sparkly shirts” and high heels if they want. but for women, it was never about “if men can do it, we want to do it too.” it was, look, we need to make a fucking living because these idiot men cant be counted on for shit. and we cant do it with our feet bound, and corsetted so we cant breathe. not to mention “i am sick and tired of predatory men looking at my body.” so we want to wear, thats right, practical and utilitarian clothing that lets us be FREE. men are completely missing the point, by wearing “womens clothing.” seeing that womens clothing is the OPPOSITE of practical and utilitarian clothing that lets us be FREE it seems more and more of a fetishization of the subserviant role, than anything revolutionary in regards to gender, when men want to wear it. and of course, it doesnt seem to advance womens position at all. it might even make it worse, as in “see, these sparkly shirts and high heels arent so bad! why *wouldnt* anyone want to wear them?” as if women have just been being unreasonable this whole time by demanding access to comfortable, practical (ie. MENS) clothes.

again, theres so much more to being “gender:female” than “female clothing”. if men really want to bend gender, they can be good caretakers of thier own children (and other peoples kids) and take some of the oppressiveness out of WOMENS lives. instead of embracing what is so problematic about the male role: that men actively oppress women by being dominating and entitled, BY SEXUALIZING AND FETISHIZING THE FEMALE ROLE, and constantly, continuously crying “but what about meeeee?”

81. polly - December 26, 2009

I don’t think queer is going to destroy patriarchy either. But I think the group who claim that they are actually female because of their “gender” are more of a threat to women, and specifically lesbians than those who are prepared to admit they are male. Simply because the former group insist on their right to enter women’s space, and actually now have the legal right to do so over here.

82. SheilaG - December 26, 2009

Yes, factcheckme men seem to love sexualizing and fetishizing everything these days. It’s evidence that they don’t get what clothing is really meant for: practicality.

The harm the fashion industry causes women is outrageous. Women spending so much money on clothing and make-up that they really don’t have.
Now these same women are in their mid-70s, broke and on the verge of being destitute. This is going to be huge. In an economy like this, can women really afford to waste money on this nonsense?

We have to question what would be in women’s best interest in so many ways. All this diversionary nonsense about gender bending does not feed kids, it does not have anything to do with a huge economic disparity between men and women.

The fixation on looks, make-up and the like wastes women’s money. We don’t need all this stuff.

Cross-dressing men, sorry to say, don’t change the world. They’ve been doing this for centuries— kabuki actors, Shakespear’s original actors were all men wearing dresses at every performance in the Elizabethan era. Kabuki goes back to ancient Japan.

Feminism is the great revelation that women dress for themselves, their comfort and self-defense in a world filled with oogling pigs.

Ever go into a Seven/Eleven and a woman in high heels and short skirt is ahead of you in line. She walks away from the clerk with her purchase, and the sleazy man behind the counter just stares at her butt in a learing disgusting way. I’ve called out the creeps on this now and then, and dumped my purchases on the counter and walked out.

The woman who was just violated by the rapist’s stare had no idea this had even happened to her. Scary. When women’s backs are turned this sleazy slimy counter men are always staring.

factcheckme - December 26, 2009


But I think the group who claim that they are actually female because of their “gender” are more of a threat to women, and specifically lesbians than those who are prepared to admit they are male.


i agree polly. men who think that sex and gender are the same (ie. the traditional view) are the most likely to be violent. transwomen think that sex and gender are the same. so i think they are more of a threat physically (and more on the threat level of “normal” men, ie. a HIGH threat level) than are gender queer males. BUT. any man who is “playing” with gender really isnt getting the point. i am starting to think that anyone that has or has ever had a dick is NEVER going to get any of this gender stuff anyway, so perhaps a listening role would be appropriate for them, on any issue related to sex or gender. (men shutting the fuck up would also be gender-subversive. sadly, most of them just arent *that* willing to commit to thier gender-bendy stance).

83. SheilaG - December 27, 2009

What men shut up as a root to subverting gender?
Dream on…

84. SheilaG - December 27, 2009

If they have a penis they are hopeless… my motto at year’s end.

If they had a penis and cut it off, just doesn’t mean they get anything else. A penis, despite some feminist commentary to the contrary🙂 is not a brain.

factcheckme - December 27, 2009


If they had a penis and cut it off, just doesn’t mean they get anything else. A penis, despite some feminist commentary to the contrary is not a brain.

yeah, and females are NOT merely castrated males. no matter how badly freud wanted that to be true, its not. and no matter how badly the transactivists want to revisit freud and rewrite history: he was wrong then, and hes still wrong. females are not merely castrated males. and a castrated male does not magically become “female.” end of fucking story.

85. polly - December 27, 2009

I do agree that “shut up and listen” is as good a starting point as any. I probably have more to say about the construction of female, but not here.

86. TBL - December 27, 2009

I like Eddie Izzard’s look. But he never claims he’s a woman (although I believe he has described himself as a lesbian).

I just think that if men don’t feel like what they think men should feel like, they assume they must be women. ‘Woman’, to most people, is the absence of ‘manly’ feelings/attributes. It’s a lack, an absence, an empty category that can hold anybody’s meanings.

That’s partly why lesbianism is so threatening/disturbing to men, and why they try desperately to co-opt it into a more heteronormative framework. It suggests that ‘woman’ is meaningful in and of itself, not just as a conceptual space to be filled with the rejected parts of maleness.

I hope someone will write more about this, too.

87. polly - December 27, 2009

That’s partly why lesbianism is so threatening/disturbing to men, and why they try desperately to co-opt it into a more heteronormative framework. It suggests that ‘woman’ is meaningful in and of itself, not just as a conceptual space to be filled with the rejected parts of maleness.

Well I think you just summed it up TBL, so we maybe don’t need to.

88. SheilaG - December 28, 2009

TBL, well summed up, not much more I can add to that🙂 Enjoyed reading your posts, and look forward to a great 2010 of blogging🙂


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