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“This is What a ‘Glod’ Looks Like,” Says The Glod Majority Foundation April 23, 2010

Posted by FCM in authors picks, entertainment, feminisms, gender roles, logic, self-identified feminist men, thats mean, trans.
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for anyone who doesnt know, theres no such fucking thing as a glod.  so, logicians use it as a placeholder in their own logic-based proofs, to make sure they dont accidentally add any meaning to one of the words, when they dont intend to.  for example: all glods are hooswits; all hooswits are whatchamacallits; therefore, all glods are whatchamacallits.  that is a logical proof thats TRUE.

this is a logical proof...and its TRUE

but heres one thats NOT true:  all glods are hoosewhits; some hoosewhits are whatchamacallits; therefore, some glods are whatchamacallits.

not true. aka FALSE

and the above could be drawn either way, with the glods overlapping, or not overlapping, with the whatchamacallits, so technically it may be “neither true nor false.”  (does anyone know??  seriously.  i cant remember).  but…if you are trying to prove something is true, you have just failed, if this is your “proof.”  thats my point, really.

confusing, right?  i screwed these up at first, and had to literally draw diagrams to show myself where i went wrong (thanks miska and your bad diagramming self).

start adding in words that actually mean stuff, and it gets even harder to see where you have fucked up, and why.  for example:  all blue things are bright; some bright things are shiny; therefore, some blue things are shiny…its definitely not true…but it looks like it is, to anyone who has ever seen a blue shiny thing before.  thats where we, as fallible humans, with a tendency to make everything about “us,” and our own “lived expewience” simply need some help, to see whats what.  thus, we have “glod.”

i love glods, and i love hooswits, precisely because they have no meaning.

but you know what does have meaning?  ACTUAL WORDS, THAT MEAN STUFF.  and the word “feminist” is a word, that means something.  dammit, it does.  you cant just take a bunch of people that have nothing in common, and call them all “feminist” without defining what the fuck you are even talking about.  for example, heres how i, as a radical feminist, see “feminists.”  they are, by definition, female assigned at birth; NOT ALL FAABs are feminists; and there isnt any other kind of feminist, besides the radical kind:

but apparently, heres what the “feminist majority” thinks constitutes a feminist: (note the lack of any other circles…that means theres no criteria for “what makes a feminist”.  plus the rainy-day gray illustrates how muddled, and boring this all is)

and its pretty much what the fun-fems think constitutes a feminist too…with one notable exception:

fucking shit, people.  now, just so no one starts to wonder if i have a point…heres another example of a logical fallacy: all transwomen are women; some women are feminists; therefore, some transwomen are feminists.  AND THATS BEING GENEROUS.  since they seem to believe, against the great weight of the evidence showing otherwise, that *all* transwomen are feminists.  NOT.  their conclusions dont even follow from their own premises.  not that they have ever bothered to show that their premises are true, to begin with.  fail, fail, fail, fail. 

and dont even get me started on “feminist” men, who, as men, by definition individually and collectively benefit from rape culture.  i wanted to punch youtube in the face, when i saw that.

words have meaning. “feminist” means something, and it definitely does NOT mean “whatever the fuck the feminist majority, a ‘feminist man’, an MRA or a fucking transwoman says it means.”  that is all.

Comments

1. factcheckme - April 23, 2010

Unlike the subject of my previous post, I am NOT well versed in venn freaking diagrams…and I am kinda posting in anger. So I will not go all smarty pants if someone tells me I screwed these up. Haha. That is all.

2. Miska - April 23, 2010

I love this, FCM! It’s all so true, and your commentary made me lol.

I am a firm believer in the awesomeness of diagrams for furthering the cause of radical feminism!

And it’s so spot on that according to funfems “anyone who says they are a feminist is a feminist, EXCEPT for radfems”.

factcheckme - April 23, 2010

miska, this was largely written in response to whats going on over at your place, and the “i personally believe that feminism means different things to different people!!” NONSENSE thats trans-pired over there. i dont even have the patience for it, and you, samc and polly (and others!) are totally holding your own, so i am hanging out here for the time being, enjoying my venn diagrams. glad you enjoyed it. it made me LOL too.

3. rhondda - April 23, 2010

It is right on and thank you. The answer to the question can men be feminists is no. They are not female. They can be allies, but they cannot speak for woman and they so dearly would like to do just that. This is what pisses me off the most with so called male feminists. I call them emotional seducers and one ends up supporting them, instead of going for one’s own liberation. It is a sneaky manipulation.
I am reminded of one at the place I worked. I wondered why he was the liaison with the local women’s center. When he came back from a meeting there he was so full of himself, I had to wonder what flattery and ass kissing he did and just why the women’s center accepted him as the liaison. Oh they were so thrilled, I found out later that a man cared. I felt a little sick.

factcheckme - April 23, 2010

yeah, that sounds too familiar. they want a fucking gold star for taking care of their own children too. and a cookie for not beating their wives…and a new bike for not having a prison record…and they think they are the mayors of fucking turdtown if they have a job that pays well…even while their wives and gfs, mistresses and exes are raising their shared children, alone. pfft. assholes!

4. polly - April 23, 2010

Ok can I be really annoying and point out that (without the diagram) the second statement (some glods are whatchamacallits) COULD BE TRUE, but the preceding statements don’t PROVE it. So it may be true, it may be not, without further information we don’t know.

That’s it.

Yours someone who studied social sciences.

5. polly - April 23, 2010

The question I’d ask is – why do men want to be feminists? If SOME men are as much feminist allies as they claim to be they’d respect women’s wishes. Yet they don’t about 99% of the time. For instance with regard to FAB only spaces, or even plain old women only (trans inclusive) events. Some dudes get terribly upset at being left out.

Yes there are some genuine male feminist allies out there, I do believe that. There’s also a lot of doods who can’t stand the idea of a party going on without them.

6. polly - April 23, 2010

PS re miska’s, holding your own isn’t difficult against the quality of *arguement* being deployed.

7. polly - April 23, 2010

Ok if Michael Moore appeared VOLUNTARILY in that video he is a massive hypocrite because he actually SAID in ‘stupid white men’ that men can’t be feminists.

8. polly - April 23, 2010

But now I know that a feminist is a white, middle class, groomed North American woman with long shiny brown hair and make up. But not hairy legs. Or a dude. Any description. Thanks folks!

factcheckme - April 23, 2010

thanks polly. and i agree that there can be decent male allies out there, but ONLY, and i do mean ONLY to the extent they are dissecting and dicussing PIV, and rape, and prostitution and porn, and NOT ENGAGING IN ANY OF THEM. i am not even fucking kidding about that. if a man is engaging in PIV, which is problematic for us and not for him, and which he MUST feel entitled to, or he wouldnt be doing it considering how harmful it is…then he is no friend to women. if the couple were doing it in order to have a child, who would be loved and supported, and the woman would be supported with all mothering duties, and not left to rot on her own, then he MIGHT get a free pass. so far though, i am very sure that there are VERY FEW true male allies out there. roboert jenkins is doing a nice job dissecting porn, and prostitution is getting some analysis which is good. but if they cant lay off the PIV themselves while they are discussing it, then they arent really GETTING IT. and thats a problem that cannot be remedied.

factcheckme - April 23, 2010

also, i added another graphic to illustrate exactly the problem that polly noticed. i called it “neither true nor false” but i dont know what its really called. they are “proofs” that could be either true or false, depending on how you CHOOSE to draw it. thats a LOGIC FAIL, people. see what you think.

https://factcheckme.wordpress.com/2010/04/23/this-is-what-a-glod-looks-like/neither/

9. A - April 23, 2010

God, I watched that video about 6 mos. ago, So fucking ridiculous.
“Just because i choose to wear a short skirt doesn’t make me less of a feminist”
But does it make you a feminist?
It’s so obscenely ridiculous that these people just shout random shit out and somehow think they are making a huge difference by it. It’s the white privileged fun feminism, the kind where you are “an individualist” and fail to recognize women as a class. Garrrgh. Drives me mad. I loved your post though – so hilarious and totally true.

a subscriber,

A

factcheckme - April 24, 2010

i was probably too hard on lisa loeb before, when i made fun of her “short skirt” comment. because its very possible that wearing a short skirt would not make you “less of” a feminist, assuming that you WERE ONE, in the first place. (using the word “choice” in this manner makes it pretty clear that shes not a feminist, or a very credible one, and never was one, but lets pretend for a moment that she didnt say that). i mean, if you have to be fuckable to men, in order to survive, and many of us do, well i am not going to let that stop me from recognizing good feminist work, for example. but come on. have ANY OF THESE PEOPLE done any real, honest feminist WORK lately? have many of them done any, ever?

i have mentioned here before that i stripped in my last year of college. it didnt make me any less of a feminist, i guess. it didnt make me any MORE of one either, which is kind of my point (and the opposite of what the fun-fems and sex-pozzies seem to think. WTF?) if you want to know, my brother had just died, and i got fired from my supermarket job because i took too much time off work to be with him while he was dying, and helping my mom with the arrangements afterwards…and i was literally too exhausted and broken to even consider going on a proper interview. i would rather just take my clothes off, and thats what i ended up doing. i also modelled nude for the lifedrawing classes, between classes during the day. i dont recall feeling empowered. i do recall paying all my bills in cash, and then when i graduated, i moved back in with my mom, and slept for about 2 months. she would have had me hospitalized, if i had had insurance. it would have been an overreaction on her part i think, but i can imagine that i scared her pretty good.

10. sonia - April 24, 2010

I love you, FCM. “Kiss my fucking ass/men.” Seriously, still laughing.

xo.

11. mscitrus - April 24, 2010

That video. Oh god I wish it were a parody. “Feminism is good for you IN THE BEDROOM ;)” Wow, I’m convinced! I thought being free from oppression wasn’t a good enough incentive to be a feminist, but now that I know I’m gonna be a confident, empowered, SEXXXY lady I think I’ll sign up.

My favorite part of your post tho was the gray symbolizing muddled. Made me and my lover laugh SO HARD, because it’s true. Your diagrams are badass.

On male feminist/feminist allies, I’d say my lover is pretty good. Most of what we talk about is radical feminist stuff, how porn sucks etcetc. We have PIV sometimes if we make love but it’s all up to my discretion, he never brings it up and we never do that “foreplay” bullshit. And now he wants wait till he reads intercourse before we do again. (I feel like I’m in bizzaro world. And like I’m not-my-nigeling.) But I 100% agree it’s impossible for any dude to really get it on the same level.

I don’t think the sex-poz philosophy thinks about the mental/financial states of the women in the sex industry. It’s fucking privileged as hell. Gah I hate individualism.

factcheckme - April 24, 2010

glad you are enjoying it. i may just write all my posts in diagram form, from now on. or maybe for a few weeks, and see how it goes. theres something about making them, that makes you have to slow down and THINK about what you are trying to say. and i actually spent about a half an hour trying to come up with a colored diagram with multiple circles, to illustrate what fun-fems think a feminist really *is*. and i kept coming up with, literally, everything equals everything. which would be represented visually (i think) by a bunch of circles overlapping each other. and it would literally be either gray, or brown, from multiple layers of translucent color. i dont think my paint program is sophisticated enough to pull that off properly, but why waste the time anyway right? gray is gray. multiple same-sized circles overlapping each other is really just *one* circle. in the end, my crap-tastic paint program was exactly sophisticated enough. ha.

thanks for reading.

12. polly - April 24, 2010

No of course wearing a short skirt doesn’t make you less of a feminist. I don’t wear short skirts, but I’d wear shorts in summer when it’s hot. I wear tight fitting clothes to the gym.

But I think if you see women’s primary aim/purpose in life (or even secondary aim/purpose) as being *fuckable*/meeting beauty standards and you think there’s something WRONG with women who don’t do this, you’re a funny kind of feminist. And that’s what that whole bleeding video does. Don’t worry girlies, just because you say you’re a feminist, men will still want to fuck you. It doesn’t mean you’re a fat ugly hairy legged lesbian, cos they’re nasty!

I would have been more convinced if it had included some (by conventional standards) plain looking women. There were some very unattractive men in there. So ladies – dudes can be fat and old, YOU can’t.

factcheckme - April 24, 2010

It doesn’t mean you’re a fat ugly hairy legged lesbian, cos they’re nasty!

HAHAHA polly, yes you are right, thats exactly what they are saying. in fact, i might change my FAQ to include all my negative traits, and even exaggerate them for affect. i might even make some up. i draw the line at admitting to being “humorless” though. i mean lets face it! i am hilarious!

you know, i have been thinking about this “no man wants to fuck her” business, and its so ridiculous, once you start seeing PIV for what it really is. if you believe that PIV is abusive to women, because its problematic for us and not for men, and we are supposed to WANT it??? and if men DONT want to abuse us this way, its a negative reflection on us, as women, and as people? dworkin is really opening my eyes to this “eroticization of the inferior” and i havent ever thought about it that way before. i mean, i heard the words, but it never made sense. until now. and it *doesnt* make sense, as long as you believe that PIV is “sex.” because its like saying “eroticization of sexuality” and it sounds…well it sounds sex-negative, in fact. at best, it sounds redundant. which is where the misunderstanding comes from: all the fun fems, liberals and men (haha all point-nothing of them who have actually read her) are interpreting dworkins words through thier PIV=sex brainfog.

again, if men were at all “sexual” beings, even a tiny fraction of what they claim to be, and what we are all made to believe them to be, they would be lining up to give us erotic massage, and us letting us stick things up thier butts. they would go to bars with the sole intention of finding a woman to pleasure with a non-phallic-looking vibrator, and they would think about watching our faces as *we* come, and thier dicks would get hard at the thought of it, even knowing that they were never going to penetrate us, and that IF they orgasmed too, it would be on our outsides, only. and they would want to do this repeatedly, until dawn.

its been awhile since i have been to a bar, but last time i checked, this is NOT whats going on, in bars. check the sidebar for “men are sexual beings” for more on that (if you havent already).

13. polly - April 24, 2010

Well I do go to bars FCM and the interesting thing is the bars I go to are often in the ‘gay village’ locally. And you know what they are FULL of straight men.

Which the bar owners like of course, because their bottom line is profit and the straight men usually drink a lot. But I lose count of the number of times I’ve been in a gay bar and a straight man has tried to hit on women who are OBVIOUSLY lesbians. I’ve been in a well known lesbian bar where unaccompanied (by a woman) men aren’t allowed in and seen male/female couples trying to pick up women. In the same bar I’ve seen males who’ve paid female sex workers to go in with them, so they can have a good ol’ perv.

If men really are sexual beings you think they’d also try hitting on women who at least stand a slight chance of being interested.

14. polly - April 24, 2010

Also if you become a feminist and DON’T have good sex, can you ask for your money back?

15. Big Fat Feminist - April 24, 2010

if the couple were doing it in order to have a child, who would be loved and supported, and the woman would be supported with all mothering duties, and not left to rot on her own, then he MIGHT get a free pass.

I like PIV. It’s the only way I can have an orgasm. Now what?

factcheckme - April 24, 2010

well BFF…i like it too. who cares? men dont have to abuse us, just because we “might” like it. in fact, they CHOOSE to abuse us, whether we like it, or not. its MENS BEHAVIOR thats the problem here, not womens. so…i guess unless and until anyone can prove that PIV is *not* problematic to women…then theres no way it can be OK for a man to engage in it. women can engage in it all we like, without hurting anyone in the same, or even in a comparable way. thats the whole point, really. its about risk, and whos taking it, and who isnt.

BTW, i am still reading dworkin, and she has described a few scenarios in which PIV *might* be less problematic. for example, if thrusting wasnt a part (well, ALL) of it. if the woman and man “laid together in mutual pleasure” and the woman’s orgasm provided the requisite friction for the man to orgasm. i thought that was interesting. still gonna knock you up though, if you arent careful. (really, regardless of whether you are careful or not). and by *you* of course, i will always mean the woman. i will report more on dworkin later.

factcheckme - April 24, 2010

PS. i have heard that heroin feels awesome.

16. polly - April 24, 2010

It’s true, FCM, heroin is apparently like being wrapped in a big warm snuggly blanket where nothing else matters. It’s also fairly harmless if taken as the medically prescribed stuff (as opposed to street heroin where the dangers are what it’s cut with, the unpredictable dosage and using dirty needles) which is why you get it in hospital. And you don’t come out addicted after an operation FFS (heroin is also not as addictive as widely believed).

So heroin itself isn’t harmful, but heroin ADDICTION in our society is very harmful to a lot of people. Strange.

I don’t think anyone is advocating that PIV be made illegal BTW. Not even hairy legged lesbian separatists. Just pointing out that there’s more than one way of killing a pig than poking its eyes out.

17. SheilaG - April 24, 2010

Yes, it is a horrifying trend that more straight MEN are in gay bars these days. I’ve had some pretty brutal verbal confrontations with them too. So even if you are a dyke’s dyke, like Polly and me, this doesn’t mean that men leave us alone. And if they are true sexual beings, they would know that lesbians are not interested in men sexually in the slightest, and when we go to gay bars, we most certainly don’t want to deal with men at all ideally, or at least have a straight male free zone.

The men who own many of the bars of course just want to bottom line profit, and don’t care that they are putting women in danger by even allowing the straight men in in the first place. The big woman owned highly profitable bar in town of course just doesn’t have this problem.
So lesbians are very safe there, and it has critical mass, hundreds of women, and thus the straight men don’t even dare to try anything there.

Erotic massage that men give straight women, no more PIV, but a concentration on the sensual. That would make men sexual beings rather than preditors, pigs, and sexual ignoramouses. But then I have always seen men as a lower form of life, a more primitive humanoid, devoid of actual humanity. That’s how I see these creeps.

Jill Nelson is coming out with a new book about women who own a spa in the islands, and the focus is on female sexuality, and training the men to serve the women. Looks interesting, and I love Jill Nelson.
Don’t know if it’s in bookstores yet, but it definitely would be a female friends sexuality within a heterosexual context. I wonder how she handles PIV in the book?

18. SheilaG - April 24, 2010

P.S. The video is plain weird to watch. Can’t imagine such an inane ad about civil rights. What women can’t even control and be proud of their own ideology? Sad.

factcheckme - April 24, 2010

it *was* just plain weird to watch. i just watched it again, and its even creepier the second time! part of it is that its overacted, which is the price you pay i guess for having professional actors play the parts. but their overly enthusiastic delivery of completely banal content made me think they were all high on something, or drunk.

re gay bars, i used to frequent them when i was in school. my best gf and i used to go there literally to just drink and dance, and be left the fuck alone. it was nice. i never knew until you and polly said it, that straight men are coming in and trying to pick up the lesbians, and harassing you. i agree that is more evidence that men arent sexual creatures. they like the thrill of the harass.

19. Big Fat Feminist - April 24, 2010

PIV isn’t heroin, FCM. And I don’t know how a woman can engage in PIV without a man engaging in it too.

I get what you’re driving at, but just as you put your Nigel outside the circle, that’s where mine goes too. I’m not going to wax on about how great he is; god knows men get that everywhere else on the internet. But I like PIV and I’m gonna keep doing it, and therefore my Nigel isn’t raping me.

factcheckme - April 24, 2010

and i was particularly repulsed by the statement that feminism is a “state of mind.” FUCK. YOU. this is the whole fucking problem right here i think. like men, mentally masturbating to rape hypos, fun-feminists and the progressive elite like to imagine that sexual victimization isnt REAL, that its not happening NOW, IN REAL TIME, and that the harms arent tangible to women around the world. its about equality!!!111! yay, abstract concepts that are meaningless and dont even properly frame the question, let alone providing any answers!!!11!!

no, its not a fucking state of mind, “FEMINIST MAJORITY” you assholes. its war, being waged on real womens bodies, as we speak. and the only reason any woman could possibly consider it a state of mind, is western privilege (and hollywood new money) providing the ILLUSION that her body is safe, that she isnt and women as a sexual class around the world arent “just” a life support system for a vagina, for men. i kinda think most women know this, on some level (so who the fuck are the feminist majority then anyway? feminist men and transwomen? this is a serious question). hence womens “hypervigilance.” see the sidebar for more on that.

20. polly - April 24, 2010

Well that’s the problem isn’t it. It’s relativistic therapy speak bullshit. In which there’s nothing WRONG with the world surrounding you, you just need to adjust your own mental attitude towards it.

The point is, that for the women in that video, feminism is just a bit of a hobby/career opportunity (I went to feminism.org and it’s got a load of job ads). They’re affluent/young/well educated/conventionally attractive enough for the stuff that affects other women not to be a pressing issue for them. It’s not about having great sex/shit sex/mediocre sex/no sex. That’s a LIFESTYLE issue not a pressing human rights problem FFS. Yes women’s sexuality IS suppressed, but frankly that’s usually the least of most women’s problems.

21. polly - April 24, 2010

re gay bars, i used to frequent them when i was in school. my best gf and i used to go there literally to just drink and dance, and be left the fuck alone. it was nice.

Well that was it. The straight women started coming to the gay village, first of all cos it was “safe”. Then the bi curious lot turned up, or the hen parties who wanted to play “snog a lezzer” (I’m really not making ANY of this up). Then the porn boggled straight men followed. Then it just became the place for all the straight eejits/tourists/general fools who want to take ketamine, to hang around.

factcheckme - April 24, 2010

to be clear, i dont expect women to give up PIV, just because its abusive. but again, unless and until someone can prove to me that PIV *isnt* abusive, i think theres no legitimate excuse whatsoever for any man to engage in it. i mean, lets be rational here. is there any legitimate excuse in the world for a man to abuse a woman? if you would say NO, but you still think PIV is ok, then you have to believe that PIV isnt abusive, to women. and if thats the case, i would ask, whats your definition of “abuse?” hurting your feelings and making you feel bad? sure, ok. thats abusive. putting you at risk for pregnancy, which can literally kill you, when theres no such comparable risk (or any risk really) for him? thats abusive too. (times about what, a hundred? a million?). pregnancy is extremely dangerous, and not just because its a medical event that lasts almost a year. the morning sickness alone can cause you to lose your job, if you cant come in to work. and thats even if you have an abortion. many women experience crippling morning sickness very early in their first trimester, that “goes away” around the 12th to 14th week. so…is your nigel doing something that could literally cost him his job, and his career, when he has PIV? nope. but you are.

notably, for women around the world, the risk of pregnancy and disease is much more pressing a concern than whether they “feel” their partners are raping them, or even whether they are having orgasms. to the extent that you (and many western feminists) are more concerned with orgasms, and feelings, well, thats truly a blessing isnt it? i mean really. it is. it doesnt make it a reasoned analysis though.

men can say NO. just because you are saying yes, doesnt mean its OK for him to have PIV with you, or with any woman. thats what i am driving at. men can, and should, be saying “NO, THANKS” to PIV. its a step beyond not feeling entitled to it. but i dont think its unreasonable, under the circumstances. especially ones that call themselves “pro-feminist” or feminist men. for just your average, everyday nigel, who doesnt know any better…well i will leave that for another day.

factcheckme - April 24, 2010

re having PIV be the only way you can orgasm…i have a question. if PIV didnt exist (or if your nigels dick fell off), would you be inorgasmic? i dont think that would be the case, at all, do you? at any rate…if you are actually getting off on PIV, then your own PERSONAL cost-benefit analysis is somewhat different than most womens. because at least you are getting something out of it. many, many, MANY women, now and in the past, here and in other places, have been having regular PIV and assuming all the associated risks, without orgasming, or even becoming aroused by it. but again, its not particularly reasoned to conclude that theres nothing problematic with PIV, for yourself or for “women” as a sexual class, just because you personally have orgasms from it.

factcheckme - April 24, 2010

re “heroin” and its associated risks…polly, are you suggesting that PIV can be saved? that the consequences to women can be lessened to the point that PIV survives an honest cost-benefit analysis? this is the point i am at right now in “intercourse” and i am looking forward to what dworkin has to say. as i mentioned, she has described a few scenarios in which it is “less” problematic. right now, she is exploring whether there is something inherent in (or at least cannot be seperated from) the act, that is directly causative of womens inferior social status as (literally) dirt. so far, pregnancy and unequal risk are the biggest sticking points for me. i will report more, when i know more.

22. polly - April 24, 2010

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2009/jun/05/pregnant-women-targeted-redundancy

The number of pregnant women and new mothers losing their jobs has shown an “alarming” rise as employers target them for redundancy ahead of childless colleagues, according to an alliance of support groups launched this week.

The Alliance Against Pregnancy Discrimination in the Workplace has identified a sharp increase in women consulting lawyers or calling helplines because their jobs have been terminated during maternity leave or pregnancy.

“It appears that some employers are using the recession as an excuse to break the law on discrimination,” the alliance warnedyesterday. Campaigners said that the “long-term consequences of job loss as a result of pregnancy or maternity leave jeopardise women’s financial security for their whole lives”.

About 30,000 women are estimated to lose their jobs as a result of pregnancy every year, according to the Equality and Human Rights Commission, but that figure is expected to rise because of the economic downturn. The government is not collecting data on this kind of discrimination, and it is too early for the tribunals service to have tracked a spike, but campaigners say a wealth of anecdotal evidence suggests there has been a steep increase. Camilla Palmer, a lawyer specialising in pregnancy and maternity-related discrimination with Leigh Day & Co, said that more people were losing their jobs across the board, but that pregnant women and new mothers appeared to be disproportionately affected.

In the UK it is ILLEGAL to dismiss a women because of pregnancy. It still happens to 30,000 women a year.

factcheckme - April 24, 2010

thanks polly. it should be noted, too, that it can take YEARS for a discrimination lawsuit to play out. you could have 2 or 3 kids by then, and still no job. and you will very likely lose your case in the end anyway. we dont have paid maternity or sick leave in the US either. so even if they have to let you take a leave due to a medical issue, your employer doesnt have to pay you. and again, even with an early abortion, you are going to be facing some grave risks, to your job, if you cant come in to work. and you will have to explain why, if you want to take a protected, but unpaid leave, of even a few days, or weeks.

pass the lube!

23. polly - April 24, 2010

Employers know people won’t go to a tribunal anyway, because it’s hard if you don’t know the law, you can’t get legal aid to be represented (and you can’t afford a lawyer if you’re unemployed), and future employers will avoid you like the plague because you’ve been to a tribunal. Plus as that article says women are just made *redundant*, and it’s often very hard to prove that’s not genuine.

24. mscitrus - April 24, 2010

PIV is so overrated. The fact that people get so defensive about it is a *huge* red flag to me. Intercourse is a great book…it brought a lot of things into perspective for me. It asks a lot of the questions that *need* to be asked (I finished the book a few months ago). I don’t think we can move forward unless we question every sexual practice. Mainstream feminism is far to individualistic to realize that a woman enjoying xyz behavior does not make that behavior ok, feminist, or unproblematic.

“BTW, i am still reading dworkin, and she has described a few scenarios in which PIV *might* be less problematic. for example, if thrusting wasnt a part (well, ALL) of it. if the woman and man “laid together in mutual pleasure” and the woman’s orgasm provided the requisite friction for the man to orgasm.”

Yeah, that’s pretty much exactly what me and my lover do and is why we always come at the same time (or I already have and am still going). It’s like a slight rocking that hits my clit. Thrusting really disgusts me, especially the language that surrounds it. Later on she also says it’s less problematic if only the woman can initiate intercourse, which I think helps remove a lot of the pressure. But it’s still so fucking expected that everything but intercourse is considered “foreplay.” Any man who sees sex that way shouldn’t be having it, cause he’s clearly a dickwad.

But as FCM is saying, this experience of intercourse is only possible because we’re western and privileged. Who cares if we’re orgasming or not, when this is the primary weapon men use against us? Most men whine about using a condom, because they think it “feels better,” totally ignoring our risks. Personally I think many men prefer that only because it makes women more vulnerable (sorta like bondage, but with you risking your health/job/etc).

Whether or not intercourse is inherently problematic, I dunno. I definitely could see it as the reason for our subjugation though, because that’s how pregnancy happens. It’s hard to imagine it being neutral at all because of how horrible it is now.

25. mscitrus - April 24, 2010

Shit, I didn’t mean to write a fucking novel with my comment. Apologies for my longwinded-ness.

factcheckme - April 25, 2010

i think they get off on putting women in harms way too. because its not “sexual” for most of them, at all. they dont feel sexual (unless you mean aggressive and entitled), they dont act sexual (again), they arent interested in exploring any other avenues (except as “foreplay” blech!), and most of them wont even do it more than once a night anyway. i mean whats the point really? they have already fucked you over, and put you at risk for pregnancy. their shit is still swimming 48 hours later. theyre good. whats another orgasm really? if they cared about that as much as they claim they do, they would want to fuck until dawn. when the number-one complaint of women (besides not enjoying PIV to begin with) is that the men completely lose interest, after orgasming once. HELLO!! its called “diminishing returns.” you are FUCKED, and he wouldnt be fucking you over much more than you already are, if he were to fuck you again, the same night. so whats in it for him?

or like a bunch of times over a weekend. thats what i always wanted, and its the one thing they would never give. for me, the “return” would be lots of fucking; i am already fucked over about as much as i could possibly be, so why not make it worth it and do it a dozen more times? its interesting isnt it? interesting, and sickening.

factcheckme - April 25, 2010

BTW, are you and your partner really going to forgo PIV, until he finishes “intercourse”? i have to say, i am intrigued. feel free to report back on that, if you want. i have to wonder, seriously, whether any man could even understand dworkin. her prose is kind of thick in spots, and i actually *want* to understand it, and am not threatened by her ideas at all. dare i hope?

26. mscitrus - April 25, 2010

Yeah, I’m pretty sure we will go through with it. We’ve already gone without intercourse for..more than a month now, I think? It’s been just as fun as ever, even though I don’t go down on him at all (for ptsd+political reasons). And we’ve talked about forgoing it before he just told me to do whatever makes me feel best, he only wants it if I want to and feel it’s worth it.

It might be quite a while till he reads it, since he’s in the midst of reading pornography (and that’s heavy shit) plus the school’s almost over, so we’re both swamped with projects and exams. We already do it pretty unique in that we call everything sex and if we decide we wanna have intercourse we use the language of me being “around” him instead of all that penetration nonsense. He’s loved everything he’s read by her and her theories that we’ve discussed, so I know he loves her style, but I dunno how much he’ll like the parts that I had trouble with.

Honestly, I (and him) think the main reason he’s so open to stuff is because his parents pretty much neglected him when he was a younger and they were too poor/spending money on drugs for them to have a TV and his family only got a computer 2 years ago.

I’m chatting with him right now and he kinda wants to comment (he reads radfem blogs) but said he’d like me to ask first if that’s ok, ’cause he thinks women need spaces free from men to talk.

27. polly - April 25, 2010

For some women of course, intercourse with the wrong man can be fatal as well.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/8641099.stm

(by the way some of these hymen *restoration* operations have been done by the NHS in the UK FFS).

factcheckme - April 25, 2010

polly, that hymen restoration stuff is so disturbing. spilling a virgins blood and all that. but more importantly, i dont know a single woman who reports bleeding after their first intercourse. so i want to know what the FUCK these men are doing to their wives that makes them bleed, and i want to know what the FUCK these doctors are doing to women to “restore” something thats not even fucking there, in the first place. i know theres a MYTH out there that women have hymens, and that they can be “broken” but i must have been born defective because i am quite sure theres nothing there even remotely resembling a “broken” skin structure that could be surgically repaired, even if i wanted it to be. so if i went in for the surgery, exactly what would be done to me? this is a serious question. i have heard of docs sewing up womens episiotomies too tightly after childbirth to that the husbands wouldnt have to suffer her gaping twat. i wonder if its something like that. ugh, its all so sick.

28. Big Fat Feminist - April 25, 2010

Well, does my not having PIV save other women? I am curious.

factcheckme - April 25, 2010

Bff, I think what you and your Nigel do in private is really not affecting anyone except yourselves. How could it really? But coming onto a radfem blog and proclaiming piv to be unproblematic to women as a sexual class, based on your own “lived experience” is really pretty aggravating. Particularly when this entire article is about fun feminism, and how they are a total Logic fail. Your “therefore my Nigel isn’t raping me” was a total logic fail, in the same way. Therefore literally means “equals” or “proves” and you aren’t proving anything by saying basically that you believe something to be true, so it is.

29. polly - April 25, 2010

Hymens vary tremendously – and a lot of women will ‘break’ theirs by using tampons. But generally speaking no excessive bleeding ISN’T normal. However I understand that the hymen “restoration” operations often include an artificial blood capsule. But according to Wikipedia 43% of women report bleeding on first intercourse.

30. veganprimate - April 25, 2010

Regarding BFF’s comment that she orgasms ONLY via PIV:
First of all, I find it a bit strange, since MOST women do NOT orgasm via PIV, b/c the nerve endings are in the clitoris, and PIV only half-assedly stimulates the clitoris. I had only one dude with whom I orgasmed during PIV, and that was because his pubic bone would press against my clitoris. Usually dudes like to hold themselves up off you to watch their dick go in and out…hey, just like a real life porno, eh? Anyway, although i did orgasm that way with the one dude, it was hard work. Much more effort on my part than if he had simply stimulated my clitoris more directly. It’s possible that your clitoris is just so sensitive that the indirect stimulation that you get from PIV is enough for you.

Anyway, my point is that I have seen books, articles, and talk shows where people talk about techniques, exercises, etc. to help women orgasm via PIV. So, why can’t you try techniques and exercises so you can orgasm another way? Try masturbating different ways. Maybe your clitoris is so sensitive that you can’t apply direct stimulation to it. And no offense meant, but it’s also possible that you don’t know what an orgasm is. It’s not unheard of for women to think they are having an orgasm when they aren’t. I’m not trying to insult you, it’s just that it’s highly unlikely that you can only orgasm via PIV and no other way at all.

31. veganprimate - April 25, 2010

This Nigel of mscitrus’ seems too good to be true. And then I read this:

Honestly, I (and him) think the main reason he’s so open to stuff is because his parents pretty much neglected him when he was a younger and they were too poor/spending money on drugs for them to have a TV and his family only got a computer 2 years ago.

Ah, now it makes sense. I don’t know your Nigel, of course, and I could be wrong, but there is a subset of dudes out there who seem to be great, b/c they are deferential to women, let them have their way, agree to everything they say and believe. But it’s b/c they are wimps. They are weak men. I know a dude like that. He had a fucked up childhood as well. He said all the right things, but his behavior bothered me. He’d let his sister walk all over him and take advantage of him. It looks like nice behavior on the surface until you realize the dude has no assertiveness at all. I kept questioning this guy about it, and one day he confessed this:

“If I tried to be more assertive, I wouldn’t be able to stop myself from killing all these fucking bitches who have ruined my life.”

There you go. This dude was being nice, deferential, and a total wimp letting people walk all over him, but down inside he hated women and wished them dead.

So, be careful is all I’m saying.

factcheckme - April 25, 2010

mscitrus, re your nigel commenting here…well frankly i am a little speechless. i mean, usually they dont ask first, which is definitely a plus on him for asking. and having a born-male on here who self-identifies as male *would* be refreshing. its only happened twice that i recall, and the first one was max who i ended up banning because he turned out to be a fucking liberal progressive dickwad, who wanted to stand up for the transwomen and bash the nasty radfems, just like ALL self-proclaimed feminist men (self-proclaimed pro-feminist men actually have a chance at not being liberal dickwads…but they dont get a free pass either).

i guess i dont really have much of an opinion, just a lot of thoughts. so, i will put it up for a vote. how does anyone think/feel/theorize about having mscitrus’s nigel posting here? what do *you* think/feel about it, ms c?

factcheckme - April 25, 2010

veganprimate…has apparently casted her vote. thanks vp. thats something to chew on, isnt it? as a matter of fact, i have known men like that too. theres also a subset of men, usually older ones, who use the “yes dear” like its going out of style…when really they just know “its cheaper to keep her” and use “yes dear” to make the “nagging” stop.

anyone else?

32. polly - April 25, 2010

Well you’ve already had a lot of males, sorry REAL WOMEN commenting FCM. I say if someone has something sensible to say it’s up to you. It’s your blog.

factcheckme - April 25, 2010

also, i would like to mention that *my* nigel isnt a feminist, or a pro-feminist. hes a hardworking catholic boy and first-generation italian american who had to write all his parents checks for them from the time he could write, because they couldnt read or write english. and his dad died 10 years ago and left the family NOTHING except the run-down family home, which wasnt even paid off at the time, and a social security check for his mom, who is in her 70s. so…hes kind of empathetic and “liberal” by default, in the sense that he recognizes that some people are more vulnerable than others. and he stays far, far away from my blog. which is how i like it. the only 2 other men in my life are the same way, my grandfather and my best childhood friends dad. both are also hardworking catholics, BTW. i dont know what it is about them, but they are good peeps, and i love them. miska said something similar on her blog, which is what made me think of it. theres nothing worse than a fucking liberal hypocrite, which is what most “feminist” men really are.

33. Big Fat Feminist - April 25, 2010

First of all, I find it a bit strange, since MOST women do NOT orgasm via PIV, b/c the nerve endings are in the clitoris, and PIV only half-assedly stimulates the clitoris.

I don’t know how to “prove” my sexual experiences to you, so I’ll just leave it.

However, the clitoris is not just that little nub of flesh. It is a network of nerves that spreads far and wide.

Anyway, I am not advocating PIV for everyone. Or for most women, even. Just saying: I am not being abused when I ask for PIV.

If it were framed VAP (Vagina Around Penis) and women “controlled” it, perhaps it would be a lot less problematic. It’s turning patriarchy on its head to even suggest that, though, so – as usual, keep dreaming.

34. Big Fat Feminist - April 25, 2010

Also, on a radfem website, I don’t actually have a reason to lie about my sexuality. Do you have a real reason for disbelieving my experience, or is it just knee-jerk? Do you believe I am just making it up?

At any rate, I’ll let all of you know what happens when Nigel’s dick falls off.

factcheckme - April 25, 2010

Bff, stop trolling. I said that I orgasm from piv too, and i never said that you didn’t. But don’t post here again, without answering my question: why “don’t” you think piv is abusive, when all the risk is on you, and none of it is on him? How you personally feel about fucking your husband is pretty uninteresting compared to that. If the only thing that drives your feminism is how you feel, then you are in the wrong place. Read the article, if you are confused about what I mean.

35. SheilaG - April 25, 2010

I can’t imagine a man having anything of value to say on a radical feminist blog.

36. Big Fat Feminist - April 25, 2010

Bff, stop trolling.

Wow.

After all the times I’ve posted, I have a different point of view about something, so now I’m a troll.

I do not think PIV is inherently abusive. I think that, like EVERYTHING ELSE, men and patriarchy have made it so.

There is no “risk” to me during PIV. I am post-menopausal.

I don’t know how to answer your question “Why don’t you think PIV is abusive to you when the risk is all on you” without making it about me.

37. Miska - April 25, 2010

I tolerate men on feminist blogs. But I can’t say I welcome them.

Not even the pro-feminist ones (who, if they have something to say, would preferably say it on their own pro-feminist blogs)

also, i would like to mention that *my* nigel isnt a feminist, or a pro-feminist. hes a hardworking catholic boy and first-generation italian american

LOL. my nigel isn’t a feminist either. And he is also catholic, and first generation.

factcheckme - April 25, 2010

Ok now we are getting somewhere. You are post menopausal, so piv isnt as risky for you now. But you have been with him for 25 years. What was your justification for it then? This is a serious question. It doesn’t bother you at all that he was placing you in harms way, that whole time? If not, why not? BTW, I am not saying that you are a troll bc you have a “differing opinion.” I am aggravated that you are forwarding individualist arguments on my blog, on a post specifically criticizing individualism, and fun feminist logic fail. I was serious when I suggested that you read, or re-read the article. Because it seems like you didn’t, or you didn’t get it. Posting irrelevant or argumentative shit on a post you haven’t even read, or don’t understand, is kind of the definition of trolling, afterall.

38. Big Fat Feminist - April 25, 2010

I did not feel like I was in harm’s way for 25 years. I feel like we have a partnership based on mutual love, respect, and desire. I still “see” PIV as something that has been corrupted by men and by patriarchy.

I am trying to wrap my head around concepts that are new to me. Do you remember back in the days when you were a funfeminist and you didn’t “get” everything about radical feminism?

I did read the article. I am just trying to understand.

I have looked for blogs that are seriously feminist every friggin’ day of my internet life. I look for them because I don’t fit in to funfeminism. I don’t like funfeminist blogs. I hate when people come to serious feminist blogs and talk about how radfems just don’t get it and we’re humorless and stupid. So I get that my ignorant posts are pissing you off. I believe you, and I hear you.

But I am not TRYING to troll. I’ll put it that way.

And, since I am obviously doing what I HATE seeing on blogs like this one, I will now shut up and just keep reading.

factcheckme - April 25, 2010

bff, most women dont feel like they are in harms way due to PIV. which is why its completely banal for you to say it. MOST WOMEN FEEL LIKE YOU DO. even when they are taking their birth control pills every day which have a list of potential side affects a mile long, up to and including death. even when they are having pregnancy scares, and anxiety and depression from being scared. even when they are having abortions. even when they are having unexpected or unwanted children. even when they are getting in trouble at work for calling in sick, or sitting under their fucking desks puking into a trashcan because of morning sickness. and we are spending our money AND LOSING OUR JOBS over all this stuff too, OUR MONEY AND OUR JOBS that we work so hard for, and that could be used for other things, like saving for an emergency or retirement.

do you get it now? i have given you several reasons why we ARE in harms way from it, and how its completely unfair for men to engage in the act when there is no comparable risk for them. start there, if you are really trying to understand it. does that make sense to you? if not, whats not clear about it? i think its pretty obvious, but you are very right that it can be very difficult to see when you arent looking for it. if you are used to thinking about PIV as “sex” or “just sex” or just life.

dworkins book is really good and very empathetic towards women who are trying to love, and be loved, and maintain relationships when this is the context we all live in. its not womens fault. we are trying to get our needs met within a framework that is specifically designed to meet MENS needs, not ours. so we make concessions. we eroticize certain things because we have no other options. and because we are in love, and want the closeness and attention. but being penetrated and colonized (dworkins words, meaning someone is setting up shop in YOUR SPACE) and poked and prodded physically is not inherently erotic. in fact, throughout human history, oppressed people who are treated this way dont like it, at all (to say the least).

i will report more on “intercourse” when i have read more. its fascinating. i dont think i could have read it even 6 months ago, before i started “seeing” PIV for the first time. no wonder its been so misunderstood, really. it would be impossible to understand, i think, if you thought that PIV = sex, or that it was “sexual” to engage in PIV. when really, its just another construct, created by men to please themselves.

39. SheilaG - April 26, 2010

The point is, most women don’t think all that much about PIV BFF, or what dangers or risks they are incuring even by being with men alone. It is this deep denial that men aren’t going to rape them, or drug their drinks at the club. It’s this putting up with men, tolerating their bad behavior, putting up with all kinds of things. This deeply engrained conditioning I think is what is being addressed here.

I see this constant “putting up with” behavior just by watching hetero couples out in public, I just imagine it gets worse in private. It’s watching obvious skuzball men dating “beautiful” women. It’s bald ugly paunchy men and their overly made up fashion model wives, and just seeing this in public makes me think, “What the heck is going on here. He looks dumpy and ugly, and she has to dress like a 20-something hollywood starlet.” It’s watching women all dressed up, and plain men on dates in t-shirts and blue jeans. It’s men thinking they can get away with being slobs in public, and women feel obligated to dress to the nines.

If women are truly to become free, then all behavior with men in public and in private needs to be examined. I can choose to give men a 2% tip and women a 25% tip, for example. I can even up the economic odds in transactions out in the world, for example. It takes a lot of forthought and advanced planning to make this an economic reality, however. Most women wouldn’t think to do this, and yet, I get mad every day, and say, “How am I making men better off economically, when I could make women better off?”

PIV is the same thing. A personal life means very little, but a larger complex radical feminist thought process can open up new avenues of freedom for all women. I believe this is part of the point of feminist blogs. As a minority within a minority, there is not much I can do to reach most straight women. But they can reach each other, and that appears to be the point.

Lesbians can sit on the sidelines of this in amazement, but I also appreciate the heavy lifting straight women are trying to do within a radical feminist framework.

40. rainsinger - April 26, 2010

Lesbians can sit on the sidelines of this in amazement, but I also appreciate the heavy lifting straight women are trying to do within a radical feminist framework.
Yes, I am with you on this one Sheila –
I remember reading Masters& Johnno’s research, which found around 15% of women have no difficulties with PIV orgasms, and find one multiple powerful earth-mover enough, and are too sensitive to be easily aroused for some time afterwards. I’m one of them too, or have been at times (at other times, I respond in other ways *shrug*) – but I found I certainly never needed a male-bodied partner to get that effect! Just my two cents, but even if you do enjoy the sensation of vaginal stimulation, doesn’t mean you can only get it from a male.
To me, its more a difference in “quality” for women – it varies so much more with women’s sexuality, our bodies are so much more diverse in their responses – for men, it always seems to be “factory orgasms”, its always the same response for any individual male – an orgasm, is an orgasm, is an orgasm for men. They can only seem to have one kind.
For women, sometimes its just an ‘appetiser’ orgasm, a starter before the main course, and sometimes the earth really does seem to move with multiple peaks – and all along the scale in-between.
Anyway, back to the heavy-lifting straight women are doing – as a lesbian, I also appreciate the work you are doing in trying to make sense of it all – I genuinely wish you luck.

factcheckme - April 26, 2010

ok, so mscitrus’ nigel posted overnight, without a decision ever having been made regarding whether he was welcome, or not. so my question would be (as if i didnt already know the answer) why bother to ask permission in the first place, if you are going to do it anyway?

does anyone have a burning desire to see what he posted?

factcheckme - April 26, 2010

Ok I am making a decision. If mscitrus’ Nigel wants to answer the question I posed in the comment directly preceding this one, he can. Otherwise, I am not interested in anything he has to say. That is all.

factcheckme - April 26, 2010

you know, i have experienced this more than a few times from so-called “feminist men,” pro-feminist men, and allies. even regular men…but thats not really a surprise. i like to call it “say the right thing, do the opposite.” or more specifically in this instance, when they ask for “permission” and then do whatever they had intended to do the whole time anyway: A RAPE MENTALITY. its fucking sick, it really is. its a sickness in mens minds that does not go away, just because they call themselves “good guys” feminists or NOT A RAPIST!!!11!!1!

and now a public service announcement for the women who read the pro-feminist blogs…julian real has pulled this shit on me too. he contacted me more than once, after i told him not to contact me, at all. so, be(a)ware. even so-called pro-feminist men, arent, most of the time, in one way or another. or in most ways, or all ways. that is all.

41. Miska - April 26, 2010

I really feel that the best thing for pro-feminist men to do is actually stay away from feminists and feminist spaces, at least as participants. Their only place in our discussions is as lurkers/listeners. They can (and need to) learn a lot from our discussions, but they have very little to contribute. I cant remember the last time I was blown away by some amazing feminist insight coming from a man, because all their insights are garnered from us anyway (and usually they water it down and sort of miss the point in the process).

what they need to do is reserve all their pro-feminist pontificating for OTHER MEN. Learn from us, and then go spread your learnings to your fellow men.

It’s always struck me as interesting how there really doesn’t seem to be many communities of pro-feminist men. I mean, they never seem to talk much between themselves. Instead they just hang around feminist spaces, scrounging for feminist cookies, and pats on the head. While we end up having to negotiate with their unchecked privilege, and wasting time on walking them through “feminism 101” over and over again.

factcheckme - April 26, 2010

i am with you miska. they arent going to be able to come up anything that insightful, on their own. so they are stealing our work, spewing it back to us (bastardizing it in some way most likely, because they dont really understand it, just like the fucking transwomen not coincidentally), and expecting a cookie for their trouble. where i think pro-feminist men COULD be helpful is in doing research, and debunking anti-feminist or MRA arguments. richard leader did just that in his excellent article regarding the modern invention of the word “misandry” as an anti-feminist backlash.

this is all very embarrasing for some reason. i am embarrassed for mscitrus and i am embarrassed for her nigel. honestly, i was initially concerned that mr citrus posting here would be an intrusion on her, and that she might not be able to go to the end of her thoughts, knowing he was here reading. because once they start posting, they are scouring the comments section for responses to *their* posts, and she would literally have nowhere to hide after that. but she never answered my question regarding how SHE felt about having him here. but if he was already here reading, she wouldnt, would she? this whole thing is very awkward, really.

factcheckme - April 26, 2010

i will also mention that max, the “third wave feminist man” almost NEVER used to have my back over at newsvine, where even the simplest feminism 101 type posts were met with tremendous resistance, criticism, and abuse. his reason was that “its best to lurk, and let the feminists speak for themselves.” then when i started this blog, he would pop in once and awhile and was relatively quiet, UNTIL i started posting anything trans-critical. then he was all up in my business, demanding that i “own” my “cis-privilege”. HAHAHAHHAHA

privileged, entitled, abusive men glom onto social movements, and use their righteous indignation as a justification for demanding respect, and assuming positions of authoritah. they also feel completely justified in abusing other people, even physically assualting them in the name of their righteous cause. i recently read over at veganprimates place about a woman (was it lierre keith??) being assaulted with pies laced with cayenne pepper, allegedly on behalf of “teh poor abused animals.” well, if i ever i see a veal calf throwing a pie at a woman on its own behalf, maybe i would think it was deserved, depending on the situation. so long as its aggressive, entitled men doing it “on behalf” of others, i will believe that they are just aggressive, entitled men, who enjoy abusing women.

42. Miska - April 26, 2010

well, at any rate, I hope mscitrus sticks around, and doesn’t feel too awkward or anything.

and there *is* so much pro-feminist men could be doing for feminism. For instance, men have insider knowledge about how male power operates.That kind of knowledge might be really useful to feminism. And yes, they should be going head to head with the MRAs. And really, most of all they should be attacking the pornstitution. Because that is getting worse and worse, and no one ever listens to or cares what feminists say about it (except for what the funfems say, but, they arent actually feminists anyway).

factcheckme - April 26, 2010

Ok, I am officially over talking about feminist men, and next time it occurs to me to mention one of them by name, I will take a few deep breaths first. Because I don’t even want to give them the attention.

Now, I wanted to report that I have finished “intercourse” and am thinking about what I want to say. Bbl.

43. mscitrus - April 26, 2010

@veganprimate
Omg my most recent ex was JUST LIKE THAT. He was all “I’m feminist” blahdeblah. Then I criticized Obama’s speechwriter for groping the Hillary Clinton life-size cutout thing (I dunno if you guys remember that). He was like “oh gosh think about the position he’s in right now!” So I was like “of course you side with the MAN” (because he was the creepy rapist motherfucker, but also could be “The Man”). And he was all “zomg you really do hate menzzz!” Plus he had a shitton of mommy issues and I’m just starting to realize how he manipulated and raped me. He was a total doormat too, I know the type you’re talking about. I don’t think that’s what my nigel is like but I’m always on guard so I can bail out and separatize myself if I need to.

@FCM
I responded really quickly earlier ’cause I was procrastinating, so it probably seemed weird that I left for such a long period of time. Sorry for worrying you. I spent all of yesterday with my nigel and today have been going to class and working non-stop on term papers (5 page paper due today, 8 page one tomorrow and a few other assignments all due in the next few days.) So I’m sorry I disappeared for a bit.

I understand wanting your nigel and your blog separate totally. Just, after a my ex’s bullshit “feminism,” I don’t really care to hide my radical-ness anymore. If he couldn’t put up with my blog or I felt intimidated to say what I felt, I wouldn’t be with him period. So the same applies to my comments…I really don’t care if he posts or reads mine, just hope he won’t embarrass himself/me and do something dudely. (or do another thing dudely, from what I’m getting.)

It seems like things got superrrr awkward, and I don’t blame y’all for being suspicious of him. I’m still not entirely sure what the hell happened, but I think he mighta posted cause when I was talking to him yesterday I said stupid dudes had on your blog before so I personally guessed it would be ok. That’s my bad. He also said he intrepreted polly and Miska’s answers as a go-ahead for posting, not really thinking that FCM wanted to issue an official “it’s ok” since she asked everyone else, and then FCM and everyone would get to decide if he’s a dumbass or not when he posted. No man is that fucking special he should just get a green card, and definately not in radfem space. So cause of him f’ing up I’d say it’s even more up to y’all now.

factcheckme - April 26, 2010

glad you are ok msc. see, this is what happens when men try to intrude on feminist spaces. everything gets weird. instead of just talking about what we were talking about, suddenly “someone” becomes an issue. and then the conversation gets derailed, into talking about them. its the same thing that happens when the transwomen show up too. this is not a coincidence, at all. men are so used to the attention being on them, they absolutely will it to be so, everywhere they go. and so it is.

msc, just as an FYI, your nigel posted FOUR FUCKING TIMES. one. two. three. four. he posted and posted and posted again, and that was AFTER he knew that he had fucked up. he posted even though he admitted knowing that i probably wouldnt approve them; he used it as a direct line to me, to have a conversation with me. the fucking transwomen do the same thing, routinely. they use the “comments” function on MY BLOG as their personal private message account. to send me messages that they “know” i will read. the MRA rape apologists and liberal sex-pozzies do the same thing too. “i know you are reading this…” and they go on and on and on. and i *dont* read them, after that point. thats the stupid thing. do you hear me, you fucking pieces of shit? I DONT READ YOUR MESSAGES. okay?

damn. and NOW i am done talking about feminist men. you all can feel free to talk about them if you want to. (really, go ahead). i am still trying to figure out what i want to say about “intercourse,” now that i am done. the book ended very abruptly. there were about 50 more pages to go, and i thought there was another chapter after “dirt” but that was it. the rest was the index and credits. still processing, bbl.

factcheckme - April 26, 2010

BTW this “glod” post is getting a ton of hits. i cant even tell where they are all coming from, but my guess is that its because its trans-critical, and someone tagged it. in case anyone missed it, the trans-stuff is way at the bottom, for like half a paragraph. thats always what brings the page views. as i have said before, posts addressing “girlhood” and FAAB issues dont get nearly the traffic.

44. SheilaG - April 26, 2010

It is my experience that men “parrot” feminist insights, but they don’t genuinely come from their own lives. I’ve often wondered why feminist men don’t start their own groups, and share insights into how male power really works from the inside, kind of like Good Germans who saved the lives of Jews.

Julian over at a radical pro feminist said awhile back that he has no male feminist community to fall back on, and I think men have to back each other up in their feminist convictions, because men will really get abused by other men for standing up against rape and pornography.. two easy political issues you’d think.

That said, I don’t believe men are capable of being feminists, and don’t have anything to offer in terms of information. They won’t be as well read, and certainly haven’t spent decades in the work place being dissed and held back and denied access in jobs like I did.

The purpose of feminism is to serve women, to provide a revolution for women, an ideology that is ours alone, just as Plantonic philosophy is for men. Women need to develop strong ideological tools for putting revolution to work every day. To have ideological tools, to have them at the ready, helps us defeat the male in battle, and I don’t know about you all, but men are my enemy, and I do know how evil they are. Radical lesbians see this so clearly maybe because we aren’t addicted to male sexuality at an early age, who knows. Maybe we just enjoy bashing our enemies, calling them names, and enjoy seeing them suffer as much as possible. I know I’ll do an Irish jig the day Hugh Hefner dies. I rejoiced when Larry Flynt was crippled for life. A football player drops dead from steroids, hey break out the champaign.

factcheckme - April 27, 2010

Maybe we just enjoy bashing our enemies, calling them names, and enjoy seeing them suffer as much as possible. I know I’ll do an Irish jig the day Hugh Hefner dies. I rejoiced when Larry Flynt was crippled for life. A football player drops dead from steroids, hey break out the champaign.

sheila, i love, love, love it when you man bash. i really do. theres something about the man-bashing of a radical, lifelong lesbian that is very different from the standard-issue “bitching and complaining” most het women engage in, and i am not kidding when i say that its a joy to hear it. it really is. it reminds me that theres another way. you have mentioned here several times that het women “put up with” thier partners, and complain about how awful they are as soon as they are alone with other women, and i have noticed the same thing. perhaps particularly older women (my moms generation) who are less likely to be friends or “equals” with their partners, as opposed to “just” spouses and helpmates. when the men arent around, its as if the cats away, and the mice play. the guys are ASSHOLES, worthless, disgusting. and the women talk about that, amongst themselves. oh yes they do. but its never as good, or as visceral, or as committed, as what i hear coming from you.

i too rejoice when i hear of an athlete who has died. i think “one less date rapist in the world.” when hef finally kicks the bucket…well thats going to be an interesting day. all the “free peach!” liberals will lift him up to sainthood, but the rest of us will know better.

45. SheilaG - April 27, 2010

Thanks for the compliment FCM. I take great joy in bashing men every chance I get, both verbally on the Internet, and in the fondly remembered fights out in parking lots, lesbian bars (we’d pick the guys up bodily and throw them out), and a time or two when I came to the aid of a woman being attacked by a man. Every woman, at least once in her life, should have the satisfaction of bashing a man to pulp or taking him to the ground in a battle. Whether it is over an insult like having your breast grabbed or simply smashing a guy’s nose in for saying a sexist thing, all women should get their hands bloody in combat with these worthless animals who terrorize the planet. The lack of pure rage in straight women has always baffled me, because as you said above, straight women bitterly complain about how awful men are in their lives, but DO NOTHING but endure this abuse. Maybe it’s why I hate men’s guts to the extent that I do, I hear the voices of women trapped living with the pigs, I see straight women so much happier with their girlfriends (platonic) out on the town or hanging out with a nice glass of wine. It’s the happiness of all women’s spaces where I see a carefree nature in straight women, and it is my anger on their behalf that makes me want to go to war.

Needing nothing from these colonizing monsters, we need a new Amazon army to march on the enemy, to take him down, to cripple him for life for raping or battering. In the 70s and 80s gangs of lesbians did do “police actions” now and then, and those were some of my happiest days.

Now, I’m getting older, but I’ve always known that one reason I would never own a gun would be obvious. It would simply be too tempting to murder a guy who said the word “bitch” within hearing distance, and the scary part of it is how I feel absolutely nothing for men when I think of this. That’s the type of rage that is the best of radical lesbian feminism, it is ours, we celebrate this. We suffer to watch straight women with those bastards that are so easy for us to see as demeaning to women, colonizing of women, up to no good. I watched college room mates go through date rape, battered women friends, drug dealer boyfriends we had to chase out of town, the list goes on and on…

Men are always accusing women of male bashing, but they don’t know what bashing really is. Send them over our way, and we’ll take them out in the parking lot, and they’ll be begging to have straight women “bash” them on the Internet after we’ve finished with them.

When Hefner dies, I say we should all celebrate…gather all the women you know, take over a straight bar with 100 women, toast his death, throw darts at his picture, celebrate. Yell at every man who walks in the door “Get out you bastard porn dog!” I could go on all day in my celebration of women killing men in war time, in Delores Claybourne and Sleeping With The Enemy–two favorite movies.

I’ve long wanted a movie made where lesbians take over the Vatican, kill all the cardinals, string up the pope, and then blow the whole city to queendom come. Where are the violent movies where armies of women invade a male land and destroy it? Where is the fiction of women taking over a city, dragging men in cone hats through the streets, summarily excecuting all men who even look at women the wrong way? Where are the movies where women enmasse rise up and go to real war with their oppresors? Or are straight women simply too wimpy to enjoy an out and out war movie from a radical feminist point of view? Hey, maybe I’ve got enough anger in me for 10,000 women.

46. veganprimate - April 27, 2010

You know, men really do fucking colonize. Why can’t they let us have our own fucking spaces? If a woman tried to get into an exclusive men’s club, she’d be dragged out so fast, but we can’t even carve out a little bit of internet space without men barging in and demanding to know what we’re saying. It’s fucked up.

47. mscitrus - April 27, 2010

I’m REALLY sorry about all this drama FCM. He tends to overexplain himself once he feels like he screwed up (which almost always makes things worse) and he’s pretty noob at commenting so he treated it like a chatbox. (“I said I was reading pornography and she might think i mean like real porn not the book oh noes”) I dunno if you’ve met people like that before but they come off as really pushy. He was being a dickwad for sure and lacked any knowledge of netiquette. (ie no one fucking cares for you to introduce yourself, you come off as an egocentric asshat.) I’m definately gonna keep posting tho, even after this sea of awkward. Apologies for noob nigel being an annoying asshat.

And yesssss to everything y’all are saying on seeing misogynists die. We should throw a party.

I can’t wait to see your comments on intercourse FCM. It really takes a while to sink in.

On the Feminist Majority whatever, there’s a “chapter” at my school. They’re a bunch of sex-positive white ladies and have had THREE fucking burlesque shows this year (staring the president of the club), one called “Broads and Dames” to raise money for a women’s shelter. To top it off they encouraged people to go to some GLBT drag show and date auction. Needless to say I quit that shit the moment they said it wasn’t rape if a woman wasn’t physically forced into it. (“she’s responsible if she gives in/doesn’t fight back.”) It would be hilarious if it weren’t so pathetic. I dunno if all of them are like that but it suuuure fits the women in that stupid video.

48. berryblade - April 27, 2010

I love this entry so much.

factcheckme - April 27, 2010

Well that’s yet another reason not to allow anyone’s Nigel in a feminist space isn’t it? Having to worry about them embarrassing themselves, and you. And the woman having to apologize for his behavior when he does. Msc, I appreciate your apology, I really do. But I never, and i mean never, want any woman to apologize for a man’s behavior in these comments, ever again. That’s just another way we spend our energies and attentions, on men. Doing it, and anticipating doing it, and worrying about it. No more. Okay? Okay. That is all.

49. SheilaG - April 27, 2010

If you’d just hold to revolutionary discipline, you’d save yourselves a whole lot of trouble. Never allow men into radical feminist space, never apologize for what men do, they are incompetant idiots when it comes to this kind of feminism and will fail 100%. It’s like asking a dog to fly. Stop expecting the idiots to understand anything of importance and leave women to decide what kind of revolutions, tools and tactics to craft. It’s why we radical lesbian feminists used to be so hard line, we wouldn’t even give straight women access to our projects, they just would give into these male idiots. Even though the word “Nigel” was coined before our time, it seems as if straight women still don’t believe that their damn boyfriends, husbands or whatever are still my sworn enemies.

50. polly - April 27, 2010

Glad you’re sticking around Ms Citrus, I enjoy your comments.

51. polly - April 27, 2010

Sheila the ‘teaching a dog to fly” bit made me LOL. Even ROFLMAO

52. mscitrus - April 27, 2010

Oh shit, I’m sorry. I really was apologizing for telling him it was ok which contributed to him deciding to post, not his social fail BS. Yeah, I’ll stop worryin’ tho. :3

53. SamC - April 27, 2010

This post is PERFECT. I don’t know why I bothered engaging with the morons over at Miska’s place; their logic fail astounds me. I’ve not been at this radfem stuff long enough to have stopped being shocked by the sheer idiocy of some “feminists”, obviously.

I mean, within the last 6 months or so I’ve crossed over from the fun-fem ideology to radical feminism, but I doubt I was ever as willfully stupid as the “feminism is what you *feel*” brigade – in fact I always felt somewhere between uncomfortable and enraged by that I read on feministing/feministe/thefword etc, but never really had the ability to fully articulate why. I thought that either I was entirely wrong, or I was the only person not totally misunderstand the entire concept of feminism, and since I’m fairly new to feminism, I sort of presumed that it would be the former. Not to mention that it is virtually impossible for fun-fems to recommend any feminist literature, because they literally don’t have a clue, which made it even harder. Then I found you guys and it’s like, phew, feminism *does* still exist. Over in fun-fem land it’s like looking at feminism though a fucking distorted funhouse mirror. Enough of my life story anyway, I’m just glad I found these blogs, that’s all.

Polly, I’m with you when it comes to life in the good old “gay village” these days. I still find it unbelievable how many straight men go to great lengths to get into the lesbian bar I presume you meant. I mean, they’re hardly missing much (and I’m not sure what they expect, it’s about as big as my front room and hardly full of pornorific “lesbians”)… it simply is because most men can’t tolerate being excluded from ANYWHERE, not even places they have no real interest in going. Last time I was in there, a man spat in my face when I objected to him repeatedly deliberately elbowing me out of the way. I may as well go to the vilest straight bar in town at this rate.

factcheckme - April 27, 2010

Thanks, samc. I strive for perfection. That’s why i edit all my posts 27 times *after* I post them.

54. polly - April 28, 2010

Does the name of the bar begin with a V Sam C? (like there IS another lesbian bar? ) The ‘big as my front room’ suggests we’re thinking of the same place.

55. polly - April 28, 2010

The village is a shit hole (sorry strictly parochial talk here). I swear if I ever become rich I’ll open a decent bar there.

factcheckme - April 28, 2010

I forgot to mention that I was never as willfully ignorant as these pomo fickwits either. Ten years ago, fun feminism was actually very rad compared to the fun fems we have today. That was before all this trans shit hit the fan. Back then, we all laughed at Freud for saying that women were merely “castrated men.” I mean really. How blatantly misogynist can you get right? But now, the fucking pomos are telling everybody that men who cut off their dicks are women. And insisting that its antifeminist to say otherwise.

Where I got caught up was with the sex pozzie shit. I bought that hook line and sinker. It disgusts me now, to even think about what I was doing. It’s horrible, really. That’s something you can’t take back, and I am so fortunate that I only have lingering psychological affects, and not physical ones. I could have ended up dead, or raped, or diseased so many times. I actually was infected with stds twice. Not to mention the standard issue pregnancy scares. And it was almost 10 years later that I finally got it. Ffs. How dense can a person be?

factcheckme - April 28, 2010

And thats 10 years since my last “fun” relationship. A full 15 spent as a sex pozzie. Ugh.

56. SamC - April 29, 2010

Yep Polly, definitely the same place. Full of lesbians who are either trying to emulate gay men or various characters from “The L Word”. Last time I was in there, they had TVs on the wall with like, strip-club style shilouetted images of dancing naked ladies. If I wanted to see that, I’d go to the “gentleman’s club” that’s popped up around the corner. Even the lesbians are misogynists. The village is bad but I can never think of anywhere else to go that isn’t worse.

FCM, I know, the sex-pos thing was so convincing, even now I have to catch myself sometimes from slipping into that mindset. Sex-pozzies always misread radical feminists as being “victim blamers” or slut shamers” for not advocating women’s “choice” to have sexual encounters with lots of men. Threat of rape is used as social control, obviously, but they seem to forget that we’re not just told that men will rape us as a form of control, they *do* rape us as a form of control, all the time, and the more men you come into contact with in general, the more likely this is to happen.

Fun-fems misread this as “If you behave like a slut you’ll get raped and deserve it!!”, like radical feminists are some sort of right wing Christian action group or something. The problem is, they think *most* men are redeemable, whereas we know that most men are actually a threat, if you’re a woman. Every time they get assaulted by a man, they think that the assault is the “exception” (even though they know better, knowing all about rape stats etc)… I thought the same, when I was being assaulted by men. At the time, I didn’t really think that being made to do things I didn’t want to was a “big deal”… I can’t believe I ever bought that shit either. Thinking of some of the things I did terrifies me.

57. veganprimate - April 29, 2010

And it was almost 10 years later that I finally got it. Ffs. How dense can a person be?
Don’t beat yourself up, FCM. The pressures on women are very powerful. That’s why I’m uncomfortable when feminists start down the path of well-I-can-do-it-so-these-other-women-can-to. Whether that is being able to stand up to a man and set personal boundaries, resist the peer pressure to go to a frat party and stay home, come out as a lesbian, refuse to shave their legs, wear makeup, etc.

I think it’s important to let women know what privilege they are reaping by engaging in certain behaviors, but I think that instead of simply bragging, “I haven’t shaved my legs in 5 years and I don’t give a shit what people think,” a statement which also harbors an underlying, unspoken message which is, “so what’s wrong with you that you can’t do it, too?”, that we should be supportive and encouraging to each other.

Over the last year or so in the feminist blogosphere, I’ve seen women’s defenses go up (mine included), and I think some other women just do not realize how condescending, mean, exlusionary, bullying, etc. their posts come across. They may not intend it, but it happens.

There’s also the implication that the women who are doing all the “right” things are stronger or better than the women who are unable to break free of the pressures. It may be true that they are stronger, but then this is the internet where people are anonymous, and things that are said may not actually be true. Let’s say a woman is wanting encouragement to stop shaving her legs. She lives somewhere with a really hot summer and would like to wear shorts but is afraid something will happen. Maybe this women even gives examples of things in her life that have caused her to feel this fear. Instead of support, you get this elaborate story by another woman about how she hasn’t shaved for years and even endures being heckled in the street, having rocks thrown at her head, heck, she’s even endured the odd death threat. First of all, do we even know if this is true? And it’s only serving to build up the ego of the women saying it and make the woman who is afraid to feel even worse about herself. That’s not really helpful is it? You don’t encourage people to do the right thing by saying that it is so easy for you to do it, that you are sos much stronger than the average woman, and make other women feel bad about themselves.

And you know what? From my observation of people all around me, it is true that some people have weaker personalities than other people, whether that is nature or nuture or both. And someone might face comparatively less pressure than another person but still be too frightened to take action. There are some people who can handle boatloads of pressure. That’s great, but stop bragging about it all over the fucking internet while simultaneously refusing to be supportive to your weaker sisters.

58. SheilaG - April 29, 2010

All of the above was interesting. The sex poz “feminists” were really a new group to me, and I didn’t realize how much had changed say around the late 80s or early 90s??? — I’ve always found talk of sex itself something to be rather suspicious of; I’m reserved by nature, and easily horrified by the sexually saturated world of the U.S.

It really would be hard to figure out about all the pressures on all women, because we come from such different vantage points and backgrounds. I see that straight woman’s conformity all day long, and it always perplexes me, but then again, I am very outside most social norms, and straight people simply don’t include me as fully human very easily. There is some improvement, but it takes hard work for me to wear down women’s deeply engrained fear of out lesbians… the fear of guilt by association is still huge, in my opinion. So my world is so different, that I wouldn’t really know what pressures are on straight women, how that could dictate choices.

And from a practical point of view, there really are very few lesbians in the whole world, it is rare for us to gather and control large spaces for long enough periods of time. But straight men are seemingly everywhere by the hundreds of thousands, they fill up football stadiums regularly, and so if you are a straight woman, and guys are aggressive sex obsessed on the make types all the time, it would be hard to avoid the pressure to have sex with lots of men. There certainly in almost zero social support for not wanting to have much sex, or pressure on girls to have it…. There is virtually no pressure coming from other lesbians to have sex with them, none. When transwomen started to hit on me in the bars — this started happening maybe around 2001, I was shocked, and didn’t know what to make of it. Women who were interested in me were simply more genteel, it had a rather kind quality about it, subtle. But straight men NOT subtle, very penis in your face types, just as gay men are all about their dicks 24/7, and they are always after each other.

There is a lot of threatening stuff that straight women really have coming at them. Since I am rarely in situations where I would be alone with men, or where I wouldn’t be in an advantageous position, it’s hard to say.

All I can do is encourage women to be their most liberated selves, and to work toward as much freedom as possible… the good kind of freedom. Courage takes practice as Mary Daly said, and everyone gets better at it by practicing. I know I have to have courage to come out of the closet all the time, and it is never very easy for me to do this even today. But I make myself do it, and risk time and again, because to lie is to destroy my very being. I know the difference because I was in the closet for a long time decades ago, and I know what freedom really feels like.

Now my way of thinking is so radically different from malestream that it is hard to relate to women who are really in the middle of it. It can be alienating to see how enmeshed women are, painful to observe, but then, because I am a lesbian, I feel very little of what straight women feel a lot of the time. It’s really hard to relate a lot, so the blogs help me to hear voices of straight women in a way I wouldn’t know how to engage in real life. I don’t mean to be insulting, but I probably am one of those bragging unsympathetic types, maybe out of rage, or just feeling fed up. As a lesbian, it is awfully hard to feel sympathy for straight women, and I know it is even wrong to write this, but I am trying. I think we are all sincerely trying here, and creating sisterhood and struggling to really “get it.” I think we come very close at times, and I feel encouraged by this.

Even women who might foolishly think that a man commenting on a radical feminist site would work out. It is wishful thinking, but I don’t feel comfortable saying this. I figure each group of women new to radical feminism or even plain old liberal feminism learn in time; it is the process of consciousness itself. It would be awfully hard to know for a fact, that no man will ever get radical feminism and that no men are feminists. Straight women would feel too much in despair to truly know this, and most have ever right not to believe me. It’s ok. We’ll deal.

59. polly - April 29, 2010

but then again, I am very outside most social norms, and straight people simply don’t include me as fully human very easily

That’s absolutely true Sheila. And they probably don’t even realise they’re doing it.

factcheckme - April 29, 2010

Omg Sheila was in the closet??! I never considered that before, and if you mentioned it here before and I forgot, im sorry. I kind of assumed you came out of the womb, pretty much as you are now. Its hard to imagine you holding back, when it comes to your hatred of men. I might like to know more, if you want to tell.

For my part, i have said here before that I was always afraid of being raped, and that for me, becoming sexually active (piv!!!!11!1) was a relief, because I didn’t have to worry so much about rape if i was going to “give it” to them anyway. I confused that feeling with feeling “empowered”. It’s a common error, i suspect. I mean really. There’s very little new under the sun.

60. polly - April 29, 2010

There was a whole fun fem book written on that very premise though FCM. It was called ‘yes means yes’, and basically the premise was that if women were “sex positive” enough it would stop rape.

Oh and someone’s just said we shouldn’t call rapists rapists because there are so many of them and a lot of them are ordinary men and it just isn’t helpful to turn them into monsters.

http://www.thefword.org.uk/blog/2010/04/silence_does_no#comment66172

factcheckme - April 30, 2010

well as if i needed another reason not to read it…jessica valenti having anything to do with it would have probably sufficed, but now i have a back-up. thanks!

factcheckme - April 30, 2010

and is it true that julia serrano (the transwoman who waxes poetic about rape and mutilation…see UP’s feminist reading group and miskas latest for that) contributed an essay for “yes means yes” titled “why nice guys finish last”? strike three then.

oh, and that f-word thread was terrible.

factcheckme - April 30, 2010

i meant to emotionally vomit in response to mscitrus’s “campus feminist majority” group who perform BURLESQUE on campus. consider it done. god thats fucking awful i mean how fun!!!1!!111 it bothers me very much too that radical feminist (or “questioning” ha) students wont want anything to do with modern “gender studies” courses on most campuses. what are young women supposed to do? i mean really. my womens studies classes were what got me through school. they were the only ones where i felt connected to the subject matter, at all. which isnt really a surprise. sheesh.

the feminist majority shouldnt be making life WORSE for women campus-wide, who arent even members of their fun little club. i am sure these “feminist” burlesque shows are highly publicised and really making female students feel alienated, if they arent comfortable with other female students fucking stripping at school. the religious women arent going to like it, and the radical feminsts are going to object too. not that they would have anywhere or anyone to whom to voice their objections, lest they be labelled “sex negative prudes.” what ever happened to feminism benefitting ALL women, as a sexual class, around the world? thats the question i keep asking. and the answer i get is that most people calling themselves feminists today, are only interested in benefitting women who think exactly like they think. that is, sex-pozzie, western privileged, trans-activist, and ANNOYING.

61. SheilaG - May 1, 2010

Straight people I am sure don’t realize that they negate my full humanity all the time. Polly you are absolutely right about this, they know nothing at all of this behavior. It’s a subtle thing actually, and one it took me quite sometime to figure out. There are a couple of stages to this.

Just to clarify things a bit here, I’m 52 years old, that means in the 1970s, I was in the closet and only really came out when I was 26 or so. I define this as when I wrote a coming out letter to my parents.
Needless to say, things did not go well for over seven years. Despite my closeted cautious nature, I had no interest in dating men to “pass” as straight. I wasn’t capable of being anything other than myself. But my secretive nature kept me at a distance, a distance that even today I feel profoundly.

Looking back on that time, I can’t really say why I was afraid to come out of the closet… it seems irrational to me now, and “nothing bad happened” when I did come out. Or so my thick denial tells me daily.

I found all of the aspects of heterosexual society just alienating to the extreme when I was in the closet. I didn’t get what girls saw in dumb football boys, I couldn’t fathom why any woman would want anything to do with boys. It was a brutal world that I watched, in a kind of detached way. It sometimes, even to this day, gives me a sense of distance and indifference to a lot of women’s issues… not fair I know.

Once you are fully out to people, the next step is that straight people make you invisible yet again. They ask NO questions, have no concern for my feelings, seem dumbfounded when I bring up issues like social security survivor benefits for my partner. This kind of indifference to my actual life is disillusioning. It’s why I feel so indifferent to straight people, so disconnected to anything they might value. And the whole sexual revolution thing was so male created, but in me, the objectification of women was truly horrifying. I found it all hard to take, I am reserved by nature, cautious in the many trying social situations I find myself in, perplexed at the negating dehumanizing treatment by straight people who have no idea they are being bad.

Their willful ignorance shocks and confuses me. I think we have a very long way to go, before I’d really feel part of a larger feminism, that so negates and erases lesbian sensibility. The world of the closet I believe is deeply morally damaging, and to this day, I think the whole experience made me odder and more eccentric than I would have been had none of that occured, and I had had the freedom to date girls normally the way straight girls date boys, although I object to the very concept of girls or even women having sex with men. It horrifies me on some deep level. There is the depth of my hatred for colonizing men, a never ending desire to have an army of women just go into battle and win our freedom by slaughtering men. That is how strongly I want my freedom. I don’t think straight women could even begin to fathom that type of belief system.

I often feel that society has nothing to do with me at all, and that the world ignores my every feeling. Just tonight I went to our little club, and straight women were singing at karaoke night. I found it disorienting to have them even be in a lesbian and gay space, I hated their ignorant arrogance. I wanted places where they simply ceased to exist for a few hours. There is kind of a polite fiction in feminism that straight women are the allies of lesbians, but there are a lot of contradictions to this, the depth of this.

Most of the time, it doesn’t manifest in anger, but a detached distance, a kind of genteel caution. In every new social encounter with straight women, it shocks me that they ask me nothing, that is the extraordinary thing about it all, the complete negation of my life.
I don’t know if all lesbians feel this way or not, but when I am 100% honest about life, it’s what I really experience day in and day out.

The assumption of heteronormativity is so overpowering, so all pervasive, that my observing it creates my belief that straight women are insane, the sex pozzies must be crazy, women willfully marry, have children with and live with the very people who are destroying the world, but who would listen to this explanation?

Men horrify me on a level that I don’t think straight women can comprehend, and their behavior in our clubs is shocking to watch.
They clearly know not what they do.

The legacy of the closet is one ultimately of detachment, and a supreme lack of compassion, which is very difficult for me to develop… so it can come across as a kind of cruel indifference to everything straight people suffer from. But to feel for that world, after what it does to us, I’m not sure I’m even capable humanly of this.

Well, this is probably too much information, and I don’t expect many people to understand it. I think the healing for me is to see the beautiful freedom of younger lesbians, who never had to deal with the world the way I did. I feel a kind of transcendant joy with them, that is a reward I think for all of us who fought so hard for so little.

62. polly - May 1, 2010

you make me really glad I’m not a student MsCitrus, it sounds like hell on earth.

63. SheilaG - May 1, 2010

campus feminist majority is a ridiculous term for what they are doing.
When are women really going to grow up and get it?
There just is no there there with the sex pozzies…

64. suck dick or die | anti social butterfly (IMHO) - July 7, 2010

[…] because you call yourself a womon, does not make you one. And I, as a womon, am sick of having men deciding that they are now just as XX as I am, even though […]

65. m Andrea - July 12, 2010

I laughed my butt off when I read this the first time, then I cheered, THEN I was struck dumb by your brilliance. After that, there was nothing left to say. Silly me, I thought you were a mind reader.
🙂

66. m Andrea - July 12, 2010

Hmmm now that I think about it, it would fit nicely in my sidebar, if I made a new category — “transgender brilliance”

factcheckme - July 12, 2010

I think you should have transgender brilliance in your sidebar, whether you link to this post or not.


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