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“Woman Hating” Part 2 August 15, 2010

Posted by FCM in books!, gender roles, health, international, kids, PIV, pop culture, porn, WTF?.
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since i started talking about dworkin’s “woman hating” i thought i may as well finish.  for those who havent read it, dworkin starts out describing fairy tales and porn, and how they both “tell us who we are,” mapping out very clear psychological, physical, and behavioral distinctions between women and men.  from the fairy tales we were all told as children, or that we were at least aware of, we know that the only good woman is a dead/sleeping/inert woman.  and men are heroes, no matter what they do (or dont).

and porn…well porn and fairy tales seem to share that narrative, dont they?  realizing that PIV is inherently dangerous to women, women are inert as all receptacles must be, and participating in our own destruction when we engage in it.  and men come out smelling like roses as they say, even as they actively annihilate us.  all hail the heroic come-shot!  also, viewing women as “carnal” and evil when they arent asleep or dead, porn takes the evil-stepmother figure, quite literally, for a ride.

in “woman hating,” dworkin made the connection between the shared narratives of fairy tales and porn, and between two of the worst (best?) examples of misogynist hate, gynocide, the world has ever seen: chinese footbinding, and the persecution of witches.  of course, mens entire belief-system about women is all a bunch of shit, misogynist reductionism, and lies.  but clearly, when they are the ones writing the narrative, they can make up any old shit they want: then, men make their own wildest dreams about women come true.  for example:  women are inert, ineffectual humans who exist only to be destroyed (and perhaps also rescued) by men…becomes womens feet should be only 3-inches long.  presto change-o!  yes, they were, in china, for 1000 or so years, thanks to ritually binding chinese girls and womens feet.  three!  inches!  womens this and that are thus-and-so, and mens arent.  you get the picture.  or…just in case you dont:

woo-hoo!  this creating-reality stuff is all so sexxxay, isnt it?  and it apparently has a lot to do with womens feet.  in fact, dworkin characterizes footbinding, and the eroticization of the bound foot as nothing less than a MASS DELUSION about women.  literally millions of men worshipped the bound foot over a period of 1000 years, and claimed to be able to see and feel yummy “extra folds” inside the vaginas of footbound women; folds that (OF COURSE) werent even there.  it wasnt real.

regarding witch burning, women were long regarded as being carnal and evil…and also happened to be lacking in all kinds of manly attributes.  and lo and behold, all the specifically male attributes women pretty unsurprisingly lacked made them susceptible to the influences of the debble!  so over 300 years, an estimated 9 million people, almost all women, were imprisoned and executed for “practising witchcraft.”

and again, we see the MASS DELUSION aspect of it: for example, witches were said to be able to render mens dicks invisible, and some witches were even allegedly able to collect mens dicks in boxes, where they were fed oats and corn and scurried around like hairless mice in the bottom of the box, until returned.  PEOPLE REPORTED ACTUALLY HAVING SEEN DICKS IN BOXES, EATING CORN.  i nearly choked on my lunch when i read that.  i wrote “wow” in the margin, and thats only reserved for the truly, truly noteworthy, in my margin-writing parlance.  i think i have only used it maybe a dozen times in twenty years of reading and marking up my books:

dworkins point was that all our mens fucked-up beliefs about women are being acted out, on real girls and women, in real time.  and that there are acts of gynocide being perpetrated, lasting across centuries, millenia, and they are barely being recorded as noteworthy.  rather, they are “footnotes” in american, european and “world history.”  a curiosity of a culture, at most.  or as fashion.

its worth noting that dworkin largely critiqued literary pornography, which she was well-versed in, having spent many years of her early life immersed in “great” literature…which she eventually realized was absolutely steeped in misogyny.  today, of course, our pornography is happening in real time, to real women.  so its entirely possible that modern-day porn will be looked back on as a century (or more) of misogynist hate, and as fairy-tale and literary-porn narratives being acted out on real girls and women in real time too.  and that our own participation in it, and responses to it, will also be remembered. 

as dworkin has pointed out, these gynocidal atrocities have something in common, and they include MASS DELUSIONS about women, by men.  so, in the case of modern porn, can anyone spot the MASS DELUSION?  anyone?  i think i can.  in addition to PIV = sex, which is clearly, CLEARLY not true at all, we have this:

i've got wesson-ality!

the neo-vagina!  vagina-as-fuckhole, for men.  women are just castrated men, with fuckholes between our legs.  aka.  transwomen.  noone knows where children come from: its a great mystery, and a conspiracy against MRAs.  or something.  honestly, i think PIV, the neovag, and women-as-castrated-men is the great mass-delusion of the century, if not the millenia.  this is what we are living with, and living through, every fucking day of our lives.

Comments

1. factcheckme - August 15, 2010

ok, made some fairly serious edits to this one. i think its done now. this was a short book, but it was absolutely jam-packed with great material, and it was difficult to condense into even 2 posts. the mass-delusion part i think was the most notable. enjoy.

2. sonia - August 15, 2010

sorry for being the first to comment again, as per usual. But it’s Sunday and I woke up and was blog checking.

I think u need to give men more credit for conspiratorially hating women. Because if u take away the theory that men are mass delusioned and replace it with Daly’s assertion that “men know,” i.e. they are cognitively aware of the damage they do to women and how fucked up what they do is, it paints a different picture. I’m not criticizing your work, because I think this post is brilliant, but I don’t think men are deluded at all. I think every single thing they’re ever done to women has not been done out of confusion or misunderstanding, but out of 100% pure hate for nature, including women as the closest representative of that in their lives, and the piece of it that is most uncontrollable to them.

great post.

3. sonia - August 15, 2010

in case that seemed off the wall, what i mean is, when I read that corn eating dick in a box, my first assumption at this point in my theories is that that dude lied so they could kill another witch, not that he believed any of what he said. I think the witch killing was politically motivated for the building up of patriarchy. Witches were in the way. So men made up outlandish shit and systematically set up the trials. Simply think about the guilty-if-she floats, innocent if she sinks trial. It reeks of male violence-based humor. I totally believe that men enjoyed that, and found humor in how crazymaking the logic was for the accused women. They knew, every step of the way.

4. thebewilderness - August 15, 2010

It really is social engineering gone mad.
Caliban and the Witch is an excellent companion book to Dworkin’s Woman Hating. If you haven’t read it I think you would like it. Well now, not like it exactly. Appreciate it more likely.

factcheckme - August 15, 2010

Hi sonia

Well…the book was called “woman hating,” not “unfortunate misunderstandings than men are unaccountable for” so I think firstly that Dworkin would agree with your assessment. Although she also took the time to talk about the mass-delusions that were present in each case. And she doesn’t waste words, she really doesn’t. Do you think that Dworkin would disagree with daly on this issue generally? I know Dworkin always harbored a hope that men were human, and could change, which is why she spoke to men about rape, and partnered with a man too. And daly very obviously didn’t. So maybe it is as you say: that Dworkin was actually being way too nice, and somewhat missed the boat on this issue?

At any rate, I don’t think she meant that woman-as-inert was a delusion, or that woman-as-evil was a delusion, or anything less than 100% pure woman-hating misogyny. I do think she was calling attention to the ways that their hateful perception of women caused them to physically perceive things that weren’t there. That’s all. Which is what eroticism is largely all about in general actually. Also, with the witchcraft hysteria, both women and men apparently suffered with actual hallucinations, that women were flying around, casting spells, and that dismembered dicks were being kept in boxes and fed (and ate!) oats and corn.

But the possibility also exists, doesn’t it, that they were all just lying? And that they didn’t perceive any of this at all, and said they did to deliberately see women put to death and hobbled, for men’s sexual kicks. In the witch trials, there was also torture involved, which makes self-reporting of alleged perception unreliable.

So…what’s with these awful neovags, with Freud, and with men who don’t seem to know where babies come from? I could easily, easily believe that all that’s just a lie too, to get men out of paying child support, and to continue using women as fuckdolls. I guess its a question of not only how deliberate this stuff is, because its pretty clearly so, but also how conscious individual men are, who are committing these acts, and holding onto woman-hating foundational beliefs. And I don’t know the answer to that. I’m also partnered with a man, who I believes loves me. Maybe I’m being too nice too.

5. SheilaG - August 15, 2010

For the longest time, I was confused at men. Were they really that woman hating? Were they really that unaware of what they did to women?

Then I decided to take a closer look at what men do to each other. I’d get too freaked out thinking they were all monsters, so I looked at the gay male community. In the mid-80s I lived in San Francisco and personally knew hundreds of gay men. And I watched their behavior right in the middle of the epidemic, right when they knew the cause of AIDS, or even before they knew the cause of it.

I interviewed actual doctors who had worked at the Haight Ashbury free clinic in the late 60s through the 70s, and they reported to me that V.D. and other sexually transmitted diseases were epidemic in the gay male community even back then. “They just don’t even care about each other, it’s amazing, they take no precautions against unsafe sex, and think V.D. is all a big joke… hey we get drugs when we get sick.” This wasn’t a straight man saying this BTW.

Then I watched the behavior of gay men and how they basically thought it ok to have sex with hundreds of partners, sex without condoms and on and on it went. I personally witnessed this creepy behavior for a very long time, when the answer hit me— gay men were engaging in mass consentual murder– that they wanted PIA so badly, and were so sex obsessed, that they were going to keep on keeping on no matter what the consequences.

Gay men get really angry when I say stuff like this. Quite a few when I use the term “mass consentual murder” actually lower their eyes, and squirm… they know I hit the jack pot with that term.

So this is what men are doing to each other sexually in massive numbers, even today. Go to West Hollywood and they have huge billboards… the kind that usually advertise a hit T.V. or McDonald’s.. the billboards are asking that men get tested for V.D. and that this and syphillis is a huge epidemic in urban gay worlds now. Syphilis is epidemic in West Hollywood today.

I think we have to argue about how men don’t give a damn even about each other, that gay male porn is notorious for having to safe sex guidelines and that their “porn stars” get AIDS.

This is not a post about what about the menz, its simply an illustration of how men really do know what they are doing, and that they don’t want anyone telling them they don’t have sexual access 24/7. You simply don’t see anything like this behavior even getting close to this point in the lesbian community.

Go to any gay male event these days, and the porn subtext is always there. By the time theset guys get into their 50s, they are literally sex cess pools— so toxic morally that you just don’t want to go near.

Now think straight men– Elliot Spitzer– just why would a man like that buy prostitutes, and the answer is quite simple: they want to have unsafe PIV sex or violent porn sex with women. And they could care less. “It’s a personal issue” says Spitzer. No Mr. Law and Order on Wall St. what you did is a felony!

The monstrosity of men as a sexually entitled out of control species should be clear, and its so hard for women to see this. It is even impossible for most gay men to admit to this either. Men compartmentalize it’s been said; they easily commit acts of attrocity with no moral conscience. Read gay male biography or literature, and compare it to the self-reflection in lesbian bios, essays and literature, for example.

I could go on here; I hope this is not a derail, but knowing exactly who men are and what they consciously do is who they are. Until straight women significantly wake up to this, I don’t know what we can do. Lesbians are such a tiny little group.

The other day a friend was shocked to discover that she was infected with HPV-human pamplova virus. I knew a little about it but not much.
She had been sure that when she was younger she was actually having safe sex with men before she came out as a lesbian… well actually she had sex with men and women, and now identifies as lesbian. Hey, she’s a friend, I don’t ask too many intrusive questions.
She believed that condoms protected her, and now was in total shock at the implications of the HPV infection.

I decided to go to the Internet and look up the virus, and sure enough, it said that condoms were no sure protection and that women who had one male sex partner per year in college faced an 85% chance of getting this virus, which could lead to ovarian cancer and sterility, among other things. I’m not a doctor, more research needs to be done, but there you have it.

It’s why I so oppose sexual “experimentation” with men before lesbian identity comes out… even today, women seem so unsure of themselves because of hetero sex indoctrination. Goddess knows how I was so adamently opposed to any romantic contact with men since as long as I can remember. Given the virtual complete absense of anything about lesbians when I was growing up, I still knew.

I’m wandering, sorry… it’s so shocking to get at the depth of who men really are. Somehow, FCM uncovers this even more for me every time I read here. I see the public face of men, and believe me, they creep me out. But I don’t see how women are conned into this stuff in the bedroom or how straight men actually romance straight women. That’s inside information that I don’t see first hand. They must be very clever deluded guys, who know full well what they are doing to women AND do it anyway. It is conscious and deliberate, it was footbinding for 1000 years, it is women wearing high high heels now!

6. Mary Sunshine - August 15, 2010

I don’t think that males harbor any illusions (or delusions) about their own hatred of the female, or of female nature. Our female nature is what they hate us for. They lie constantly about female nature for that reason, and also to create in us, they hope, delusions about our *own* nature.

Yes, male supremacy *is* conspiratorial. Males are psychically and telepathically bonded with each other in (and through) their misogyny. Misogyny *is* the basis of male bonding. Males aren’t delusional, they’re sociopathic.

The delusional parties are the women who want to think that all we need to do is to disabuse males of their delusions.

factcheckme - August 15, 2010

dworkin wasnt saying that the trick was to disabuse men of their delusions about women. as far as i know, she only mentioned very specific examples of documented perceptions of both men AND women, who peceived things that werent there. and that these “mass delusions” were built on a foundation of women-hating core beliefs, where women were seen as carnal/evil, and literally better off dead. if anything, i think she was calling attention to the woman-hating core beliefs, and not the delusions as much. when i reread the section on witchburning just now, she seems to be saying that perceiving things that arent there is the somewhat-logical end-result of the religious, social and political texts (and subtexts) of the time, where unabashed, blatant and rampant misogyny carried the day. at least, its the only way to explain whats been documented, regarding what people saw, felt, and perceived, at the time.

similarly, people have religious delusions all the time, that are both inspired and supported by their religious core beliefs. delusions that wouldnt make sense to anyone outside that culture at that time, who didnt know what the text and subtext was…and in fact, a diagnosis of “delusional” only applies if someone has a delusion that DOESNT make sense in the persons culture, and that a bunch of other people dont suffer from too. thats how religious delusions (and religious belief) gets a free pass from the mental health police! and so do misogynist “delusions.” so if it feels wrong to call them delusions at all, then perhaps this is why. because its basically normal social discourse, about women. and the dick-in-a-box could easily have just been lies, just like all self-reports of things that arent real could be lies. just like religious delusions, in fact. but are all religious people lying too?

regarding the footbinding, and the “extra folds” inside the vagina that were felt, but werent really there. more lies? is it really as simple as that? i dont know. imagine that you are in the 450-th year of a 1000-year run of ritual footbinding of women and girls. this is the 25th generation of footbound women and men, interacting with each other, and having PIV, and bearing children and families etc. the man has probably never had PIV with a woman who wasnt footbound. so he has nothing to even compare her vagina to. but he believes the hype, and does all the weird ritual shit around the bound female foot as every other man does at the time, including washing off the rotting skin and drinking the wash water. just more lies? or is there an element of something else?

absolutely agree about having women adopt delusional thinking about ourselves. this makes a lot of sense, when you consider what the sex-pozzies are saying. for example, they very obviously believe that born-women are just castrated men. its the only way you can make sense of their trans-related discourse, and insisting that men who cut off their dicks are “really” women.

7. SheilaG - August 15, 2010

Yes, the idea of religion not being delusion because the majority believes the belief in question vs. individual behavior which can be written off as crazy is part of this.

For me, I always wonder what is it about men that so makes straight do things against their own best interest in the long term. It’s easy for me to see that women waste their youth on men, then somehow later finally come to an understanding that PIV is no longer necessary, that they have a kind of freedom.

We do need to get at female and male illusions, and how this plays out in patriarchy. You can’t budge women on wanting to have children. Heck hetero women are now bugging me about this. They simply can’t hear the words “most women can’t afford to have children, can’t afford it, it will make them poor!” Childbearing and then having a divorce is a huge source of poverty for women, and it keeps on happening. Many radical feminists come here and report on this after it is way too late.

Now is the desire for children delusional?

One theory I have is about why women freak out so much over radical feminism. I think it bursts the delusions, and is very threatening to both women and men. Men make women afraid of even plain vanilla feminism… it’s how they get women to have the delusion that they are free.

8. SheilaG - August 15, 2010

Dworkin I think actually believed that men could get it, and stop being oppressors of women. So she tried to reason with men, and I can’t blame her really. In the early days of feminism, women were just beginning to get it and become excited, so they assumed that social justice minded men would too.

But I know differently, because I see no real change in men whatsoever. What they do get is when women rise up, and they back off a bit, throw out some token positions etc., but they in no way change. They pretend to because they are wiley as Sonia Johnson would say–not intelligent but wiley and sly.

Men keep women in thrawl by “holding out the carrot”– if women are good enough, wear enough make-up, act sexy enough, they’ll get the carrot. But it is a compete set up.

9. SheilaG - August 15, 2010

“The Hammer of the Witches” where all these corn eating penis quotes are coming from, was an actual legal manual that men used to hunt witches in the middles ages up through the renaissance. It was a law book on their legal shelf and it was throughout Europe. A good film to watch which documents the witch craze in Europe is Donna Reed’s three part film about the goddess.

A culture can protect it’s people from knowing about religious delusion, because institutions enforce this belief. It’s why you get all there right wing religious nuts with their mega churches and a tax code that enables this.

Men believe all kinds of things about women; it’s why this trans nonsense is so prevalent, because a MTF is only going on a patriarchally constructed idea of what a woman is, not based on how real women are. It’s why there is the hole for the penis to be fitted into, and why male surgeons invented this whole sex change industry.

If you think footbinding lasted 1000 years, just think what it would be like to change PIV sex as the “law” of the land. We’ve got our work cut out for us women. Straight women, I don’t envy you in this regard at all.

10. sonia - August 15, 2010

Good points. I dunno. I think Dworkin was more vocal but as Sheila said, she believed that there could be unification, whereas Daly believed it wasn’t worth the time, and I think she really thought on some level men were hopeless. I personally think that males are okay when they don’t outnumber or control women- when women control them. I think that’s the way it’s supposed to be, for the safety of females and new life and nature, and because it’s out of whack, bad things are happening. I don’t know. Sometimes even the most hardcore feminist books, if I”m reading them I go, what’s the point of even writing?!? I mean, obviously to keep those of us who read it feeling connected and like keeping trying and going, but I wish there were more direct messages of “dont’ even try with dudes, don’t waste any energy,” because it’s so true. When Dworkin says deluded, I know she means women too and I agree we are. But I don’t think men are.

you got me thinking today, chiquita!

11. sonia - August 15, 2010

I have a question, and would value you wimminz’ opinion. Do you think that women really have spiritual powers that can save us and keep patriarchy at bay (even if they were crushed long ago and are dormant)? or is the male fear of female essential power just massive paranoia and hate? or do men fear the power women have over them… would be interested to know.

12. sonia - August 15, 2010

“Yes, male supremacy *is* conspiratorial. Males are psychically and telepathically bonded with each other in (and through) their misogyny. Misogyny *is* the basis of male bonding. Males aren’t delusional, they’re sociopathic. ”

u a ray of sunshine, Mary Sunshine.

factcheckme - August 16, 2010

i dont believe there is any such thing as “female essential power” so i dont think theres anything there for men to be afraid of. i dont think it exists. although i may change my mind after i read mary daly. my books have finally arrived!

level best said something about men being “jealous” of womens power, and i suggested that whatever we might interpret as male “jealousy” is actually just their hatred of us, plain and simple. like when a young girl might say that the other girls are mean to her because they are “jealous,” in reality, they just hate you. sorry! but i just dont see it. its a reactionary response to being hated, we dont want to believe that someone who doesnt even know us could hate us so completely, but this is frequently the case. same with men, and their alleged jealously and “fear” of women. i seriously, SERIOUSLY doubt it.

if men are ever going to fear women, its going to be because they know we will kick the living shit out of them if they fuck with us, in any way. our excluding them from something important, or cutting off supplies and resources could have a similar affect. i dont know. as far as “why write” well i think that anonymous radfem blogging is where its at! miska said something similar recently. i wouldnt even bother writing a book at the moment, and i wouldnt do it for a “job” but honestly, i think that PIV-criticism is reasonable and necessary at this point, and that its the ONLY thing that is. seriously, this might be the third wave. without PIV-criticism, all we have is fun-feminism, and thats not getting us ANYWHERE.

factcheckme - August 16, 2010

If you think footbinding lasted 1000 years, just think what it would be like to change PIV sex as the “law” of the land. We’ve got our work cut out for us women.

YES sheila, i do believe that PIV-criticism is the way forward. i really think this is where its at, and that everything else is meaningless without it. and i am going to keep talking about it, until everyone gets so sick of hearing about it that they stop reading, or until i get so sick of talking about it that i stop writing for good.

as an aside, my partner and i were sexual together this week, for the first time since having the PIV talk. and we didnt have PIV, and i dont think either one of us missed it. i know i didnt. its a few days later now, and i can report that i feel like a COMPLETE HUMAN is the best way i can describe it. i dont feel like i was compromised in any way. i dont have anything to worry about, for the next month until my period comes. i feel like i still have control of my body. there is no fear or anxiety there, at all. weirdly, i would also describe it as feeling like an “adult”. i dont know what that means, but it seems to acurately describe what i am feeling at the moment. it feels good.

13. SheilaG - August 16, 2010

Well Sonia, those are pretty good questions. Do women have special powers that are dormant or have been greatly diminished or suppressed in patriarchy? Mary Daly said they did. Andrea Dworkin really didn’t write about spirituality, and was more a material leftist.

Mary Daly believed men a complete and utter waste of time, Andrea Dworkin obviously thought they could be redeamed.

Also, another of your points — what is the point of writing radical feminist books if it’s so hopeless and dudes will never change. I think you might have answered this one on your own Sonia, but the whole point is to wake women up worldwide. Certain groups of women have been trying to get that giant — womankind– to awaken and take back our power. As Daly said, “men stole our powers and we want them back!”

It is very very hard to get through to women on a radical feminist level, as we can see in our own lives and all over the Internet. I must admit, I get perplexed at all the stuff I read about women suffering at the hands of men, so much material on the basics of getting an early good education, and not messing with PIV, the threat of pregnancy, or even going to bars and getting drunk around lots of teenage boys.

This effort to move a mountain– the slumbering worldwide consciousness of women is pretty key actually. Men do everything in their power to destroy feminism, to destroy our herstorical memory, and then it’s hell to get younger generations of women to even listen!
Ugh, to know, and yet still be discounted as if all my life experience wouldn’t be of great help to some young woman on the verge of poverty. But no, they know it all, they’re going to have PIV and that’s that.

Probably the reason Dworkin and Daly are different is that Dworkin had been married to a man, Daly was a lifelong lesbian who never had sex with men ever to my knowledge. We tend to side with whatever radical feminists are closest to us in how they actually lived their lives, or whether or not they had sex with men. We shouldn’t underestimate the power that having sex with men has over women, or how it makes them poor.

Daly had her financial struggles to be clear, she was frozen out of wage increases at Boston College, and her working class background did not grant her easy access to money by any means. But she was economically independent of men, never lived with them, and in the end had plenty of women who could take care of her. Dworkin on the other hand really depended on a man for care and support and I think health insurance too, and this one minor difference can be major in understanding the two radical feminist icons.

Those who are more optimistic (not the best word perhaps) but more willing to think men can change are the ones who usually live with men.
Those women who are completely outside this hetero system can think differently. Not always 100% true, but these living arrangements can make feminists more comprehensible.

I do believe there is a kind of spiritual bond between women that can be profound. I find this often in my experiences with women I connect with in so many ways. Something shifts within me, and new women come into my life. This energy and increased confidense that I get in all women’s groups is a big part of how I work out problems, how I figure out what I can do.

Mary Daly said that men’s fear of women’s powers was profound, and that they do everything in their power to destroy our female bonding abilities. It’s why men are so happy when women are in the home, and not out networking or finding out about the world first hand.

Men fear this power for a reason, and I don’t think it’s delusional on their part. I think one fear they have is that we will rise up and do to them what they have done to women for centuries, that we will kill and torture them, and destroy their ability to even think or be free.

I must admit, in my anger, I sometimes wish there was a place where we could put them all under mass arrest, kill as many rapists as we wanted, or at least have movies made where women overthrow these idiots and mete out justice women’s style. That we never even have sci fi TV shows with these themes or Indie movies is indicative I think.

There was one book called “The Furies” that addressed this theme, but the author even regretted the violence against men. I on the other hand loved every man killed minute of the book!

Men fear the consciousness of women, and our awakening. They have been so monsterous for so long, that they fear the ax falling any day now. It’s why they created fun feminism🙂 Keep the women distracted, keep them ignorant, keep them away from the good feminist writers and activists who have broken this ground ages ago.
Mary Daly burst on the scene in 1968 women. There are still thousands of women on these blogs who have not read all her work, and many who have no idea who she is.

Dworkin’s stuff has been out since the 70s and 80s — it’s not new.

None of this stuff is new. Matilda Jocelyn Gage was a 19th century radical feminist light years ahead of her peers, Susan B. Anthony and Elizabeth Cady Stanton. Mary Daly rediscovered this radical forsister who was silenced even in her day by Anthony and Stanton. Think about that. I went through a list of all the books required for a PhD degree- and nowhere was Mary Daly even listed! I think this is very telling because someone in the women’s studies world doesn’t want PhD candidates even reading her!

factcheckme - August 16, 2010

just as an FYI, i dont think men can change, and i dont think they will change. just because i am partnered with a man, does not mean that i have positive thoughts about “men” as a group, at all. my partner is one of the best men i know, and he thought about leaving me when i said i didnt want to have PIV anymore. this is telling, it really is. even the “best” we have to choose from, the ones that “really” love us, have extremely fucked up ideas about women, downright hateful ideas about us, and PIV is a HUGE part of all of this. and they ALL feel entitled to it. and YES, for several hundred (several thousand?) years now, we have known where babies came from. so we have known how dangeorus PIV is, for women. and we STILL have even “good” men thinking, no KNOWING, that they are entitled to place us in harms way, by stucking their dicks into us. THIS IS NOT GOOD. they KNOW. and they are doing it anyway. as far as delusions, i do not think that anyone believes that men are deluded about that. they KNOW, and they have KNOWN for generations now, and they are still doing it.

has it been a millenium yet, since we knew PIV caused pregnancy? seriously, how long have we known about this, and we are continuing to do it? decades, and generations, and centuries and millenia, these abuses continue across time and place. PIV is one of these. oh yes it is.

14. DZA - August 16, 2010

I just finished reading Woman Hating, and for those who have read it, I’m curious about your thoughts on what Dworkin had to say about transgenders, toward the end in the chapter on Androgyny and the evolution from binary roles to a consciousness of a sex/gender continuum.

15. SheilaG - August 16, 2010

That’s the thing– men don’t care at all about this, and never will FCM.
This is just a fact. And for women to look this fact in the eye, and say those words: they don’t ever care, and can only focus on PIV as sex, that about sums it up. The challenge is, where do straight women go from there once they truly know this fact about men.

I don’t know what to tell you.

16. SheilaG - August 16, 2010

? You’d think I could figure out punctuation by now….😦

17. berryblade - August 16, 2010

“I interviewed actual doctors who had worked at the Haight Ashbury free clinic in the late 60s through the 70s, and they reported to me that V.D. and other sexually transmitted diseases were epidemic in the gay male community even back then. “They just don’t even care about each other, it’s amazing, they take no precautions against unsafe sex, and think V.D. is all a big joke… hey we get drugs when we get sick.” This wasn’t a straight man saying this BTW.”

Holy crap, I don’t know whether that’s more infuriating or depressing.

the Greer line of

“some men hate womyn all the time, all men hate womyn some of the time” springs to mind here.
reading about the corn fed penis just pisses me off. the wilful ignorance of these men is disgusting.

18. FemmeForever - August 16, 2010

Do women have special powers that are dormant or have been greatly diminished or suppressed in patriarchy?

Yes. But they aren’t diminished or suppressed except in women who are tragically brainwashed into mimicking maleness. Let me list a few of them for you:

Love
Kindness
Goodness
Compassion
Integrity
Character
Honor
Strength
Intelligence
Ambition
Maturity
Giving
Useful
Self-reliant
Altruistic
Superior Human Beings
Superior Parents
Superior Employees
Superior Leaders

Men are utterly devoid of any of these qualities. Not because they were born that way – that would make God a sadist. Because they actively choose on a daily basis, beginning long before puberty, to reject these qualities and they glory in doing so. It’s called male pride.

Men fear the consciousness of women, and our awakening. They have been so monstrous for so long, that they fear the ax falling any day now.

True. I remember a year or so ago my pastor was talking one Sunday about his marriage and how he and his wife roll along harmoniously for 363 days of the year but those other two days his wife is pure evil and he is afraid of her. He said he wanted to buy a gun for protection at his house but he won’t because of those two days. (Needless to say a woman never has a reason to be angry if she is being treated right. Rage is an indicator of protracted abuse, whether or not the abuse is the illegal variety.) Ever since he said this I have wanted to pull him aside and say, “Just because you didn’t buy a gun doesn’t mean she didn’t”.

Men know full well what they deserve at the hands of women and they greatly fear getting their comeuppance one day when they’re not looking. That’s big fear number two.

Number one is the basis for the origin and perpetuation of the patriarchy. They must keep female superiority under very, very tight control lest we show them up for the fraudulent, weak, petty, dufus, losers that they are. This is why a man can’t abide a woman who is more successful than he. “Must. Prevent. Showing. World. My. Zeroness…. Must. Maintain. Male. Supremacy. Illusion. At. All. Cost.”

factcheckme - August 16, 2010

lest we show them up for the fraudulent, weak, petty, dufus, losers that they are. “Must. Prevent. Showing. World. My. Zeroness…. Must. Maintain. Male. Supremacy. Illusion. At. All. Cost.”

HA! yes, i believe this is the case. in the “teh menz on teh menz” post theres a video of some wounded-warrior MRAs talking about their feewings…and time after time, they say they feel “worthless.” and here come all their little MRA friends to give them hugs and tell them its not true. you know, cause they are teh menz!!! but what if it really IS true? what if these feelings of “worthlessness” that men share when they think they are alone (and/or are going to get huge cookies for it at some point) have everything to do with their ACTUALLY BEING WORTHLESS?! of course, the fact that they feel it shows some kind of consciousness and/or humanity on thier part doesnt it? is this thier humanity showing through, and all the doodbros rush in to tamp it down with hugs and reassurances that its not true?

factcheckme - August 16, 2010

re dworkins take on transgenders, i think in general that she gives too much credit, and too much attention, to men. believe it or not, its entirely possible that dworkin is TOO NICE when it comes to men! not that any man alive would ever see this, or consider it. some asshat who linked here recently posted on his blog that dworkin is “one of those put all men in the gas chamber kinds of feminists”. oh, THAT kind of feminist!? except, that she wasnt. and DWORKIN WAS A JEW. so if that fucking asshole is reading here now, i hope he spits his coffee all over his laptop and electrocutes his own dick.

by the by, DZA is apparently a man, julian real has linked to him as a pro-feminist straight man who “gets it” which is a highly dubious honor in my book (but a male-identified man, which *is* refreshing) and DZA has been very respectful the few times he has posted here. BUT. i have posted here a few times that i dont accept men linking to their own blogs, because i dont accept men coming here to get attention for themselves, or to promote themselves. i also dont publish many pingbacks i get for the same reason. so, DZA, if you want to continue posting here, please remove your http: info from your signin info. thanks.

19. FemmeForever - August 16, 2010

i hope he spits his coffee all over his laptop and electrocutes his own dick.

I laughed so hard I almost choked.

factcheckme - August 16, 2010

That’s what I was going for ff, but from him, and with a mouthful of coffee. Sometimes my aim is off. Sorry!

20. SheilaG - August 16, 2010

This new thing about “what about the transgenders” really means “what about the menz” It’s another derail of radical feminism, which is about the liberation of women, it has nothing to do with men or transitioned men actually. Trans is a conservative anti-feminist backlash al la the 21st century. Welcome to the brave “new” world of anti-feminism. Clever, but no dice.

factcheckme - August 16, 2010

Dworkin actually did address transwomen, and she has included gay men in her analyses too. Rainsinger I think pointed out in the intercourse series how dworkin bringing gay male concerns into it really seemed out of place, and like she was reaching, and that it wasn’t even on the mark like most of what she says is. I think that’s true. I think that 30 years ago when she was writing some of this stuff, for whatever reason, Dworkin decided to throw teh menz a bone. And it really does seem terribly out of place.

21. SheilaG - August 16, 2010

Hmm, I did forget about Dworkin’s commentary on gay men and transwomen FCM. Throwing a bone is what many feminists used to do back in the day. I think we have learned a lesson about this 30 some years later (one can hope). It is out of place, because we know it got us nowhere as a radical movement. Even Susan Brownmiller has said that “the aggressors have won” vis-a-vis pornography and rape, and she is absolutely right. There is more rape in porn, more sexual degrading stuff against women than ever compared to the 70s when we were protesting Deep Throat. It got worse, and then women got recruited into funfeminism. Who would have guessed that the monsters had been that clever? 5000 year old patriarchy knows what it is doing women. We have to know the odds here.

The thing is, we have so many older feminists now who know all this, who read all this, and we are still having to do 101 even with women.
We can never settle on a revealed truth and stick to it it seems. Thus the eternal returning to the illusion that men will change at all, the way Dworkin thought they would. Again, she was living with a man, so she had hope because of that. I don’t think the “Nigel” word had been invented yet.

It is so hard for women to think of born women only, to really focus on born women being the absolute # 1 of anything we talk about. The “what about the menz” is a true pitfall of a lot of women of good will. They want to believe, to paraphrase the X-Files. Where is agent Scully when you need her?🙂

22. delphyne - August 16, 2010

Dworkin ended up with a poster on her study wall “Dead men don’t rape” so I think she changed her mind down the line. All this stuff was brand new at the time, so its’ not surprising that she might have got it wrong in a couple of places.

I thought DZA asked that question about trans to shit stir. It doesn’t surprise me that he’s a man.

Mary Daly called androgyny Marilyn Monroe and John Wayne scotch-taped together, and she was sorry she’d used the term in one of her first books (encouraged by a man). Dworkin didn’t talk about androgyny again in her work as far as I know. She talked about men and she talked about women.

23. Rachel - August 16, 2010

“for example, witches were said to be able to render mens dicks invisible”

Daly points out that this is the original meaning of the word “glamor”.

factcheckme - August 16, 2010

Scully got knocked up, had the baby, gave it up for adoption, and ended the series in bed with mulder talking about hope. Since you asked. Heh.

factcheckme - August 16, 2010

I am watching the series finale literally as we speak, on my ipod.

factcheckme - August 16, 2010

Damn Rachel, that hamburger is making me insane with desire! Can I ask why your avatar is the most delicious looking burger I’ve ever seen?

24. DZA - August 16, 2010

“so, DZA, if you want to continue posting here, please remove your http: info from your signin info. thanks.”

Done.

25. DZA - August 17, 2010

delphyne: “I thought DZA asked that question about trans to shit stir. It doesn’t surprise me that he’s a man.”

I’ve been following the posts on trans issues here and at Undercover Punk, and since Woman Hating came up, I thought maybe someone may have an analysis or criticism of what (early) Dworkin said on the matter. Not stirring shit, just legitimately curious. FCM has now addressed already it by saying that she thinks Dworkin was too kind to men.

factcheckme - August 17, 2010

delphyne, do you think she got it wrong with the “mass delusion” stuff too? or, do you know if she continued to reference it? i would really like to know what she thought about that, in the end. again, i dont think she was using it to mean that men dont know what they are doing, when they harm us…but they also apparently used to wash the rotting skin off of womens bound feet and drink the wash water, so its kind of like they were out of thier fucking minds, in some very specific ways. this is really stuck in my craw actually, and its what i have continued to think about after reading it, and after writing this post.

factcheckme - August 17, 2010

not just “too kind” but also reaching very far, and trying very hard, to include gay and trans men in her discourse, even when it didnt quite fit. when i have included this material, her treatment of gay men in the intercourse series, and her concept of “mass delusions” in this one, the women here have pointed it out too. they caught it, immediately. oh yes they did. and some of them arent buying it. my readers are awethome that way!

i am still stuck on the mass delusion aspect of it myself, as i said. i think theres something there. insert pic of the neovag here (i am so sick of posting that thing!)

factcheckme - August 17, 2010

ugh. and DZA, i dont think what delphyne said required a response from you. come on now. UP has a post up right now about allowing male comments, maybe you should read it. what women probably hate most about male comments in feminist spaces is that they dont add anything to the discussion. now, ask yourself what your last comment added to the discussion? and you may or may not see what you have done here. but i am not going to address the issue again. this is not about you, and when you make it about you, you are taking away from the discussion, not adding to it.

i should have said that first.

factcheckme - August 17, 2010

damn! it only took less than a day for some male poster to come in here and start stinking the place up didnt it? ffs. sheila has said numerous times that men out themselves, every fucking time they open their mouths. and they do. whether they are male-identified or female-identified or lying about either one or both, you can always fucking tell, by the flavors they add to the stew. and this stew is starting to taste like shit, already. i can taste it, and so can every other woman in this room.

factcheckme - August 17, 2010

this kind of deserves its own post, but i dont have the patience to wait. this is a song thats very popular on the radio right now, i heard it for the first time last week and its absolutely haunted me ever since. and not in a good way. i have to say that i am legitimately disturbed.

you guys are pretty good at playing along with my experimental/experiential posts…so try this, if you want to. this will probably only work if you havent already seen it, but play the video WITHOUT WATCHING IT. just listen to it first, before you watch the images. its eminem and rhianna singing a duet. i first heard it in the car as just a song, no pictures to go along with it and it was really different. worse. way, way worse. somehow, with the images to go along with it, it makes it all seem like what hes talking about isnt that bad! WTF? when the words are fucking chilling.

factcheckme - August 17, 2010
26. sonia - August 17, 2010

ugh, not this fucking vid again. Fuck you, Eminem.

THAT said🙂, Sheila- yeah, I have always thought that Dworkin’s personal life greatly influenced a lot of her perspective, which of course it will. She was heavily personally traumatized by men too, which seems like why her books are so ptsd-y. I’m not saying anything against her work, it’s one of my favorites, but if I want to relax, I can’t read her, whereas Daly makes me feel warm and safe and cuddly even while she’s slapping down the patriarchy. I think you’re right, it is because of the female identification and bonding she had going on personally. Interesting too, that while Dworkin may have had more hope for humanity, Daly probably had less and was way happier..

27. sonia - August 17, 2010

By the way, when that scene happens in real life, he doesn’t punch *the wall NEXT TO your head.*

Just saying.

28. sonia - August 17, 2010

I mean, why dont’ they fucking call this video “women really enjoy domestic violence so next time you’re pissed off, go ahead and hit your girlfriend.” and then Megan Fox could come on at the end and go “I’m Megan Fox and I approve this message.” and Chris Brown could pop up behind her shoulder and grin and nod and they could smile and fist bump each other.

I was googling something the other day that started with “is it illegal” and guess what the seventh most common google search is that starts with those 3 words?

“is it illegal to hit a girl”

do you know how many people have to enter that for it to be google’s #7 search for that phrase?

give it a minute.

shutting up now.

29. berryblade - August 17, 2010

I think the line about tying her to the bed and burning the house down disturbed me the most. Eminem pisses me off (heard a song of his a few weeks ago that was about plying a fifteen year old with booze and raping her) because he thinks he’s being so edgy and shocking, when really he’s just regurgitating the same old boring shit. I couldn’t even watch the video.

factcheckme - August 17, 2010

I think the line about tying her to the bed and burning the house down disturbed me the most.

YES, absolutely. me too. and that doesnt come until the end of the song, but shes been saying “sit there and watch me burn; its ok, because i like the way it hurts” the whole fucking time. then we realize that its LITERAL, and that she really wants him to murder her. this is a domestic abusers wet dream. and not just about the violence (although thats obviously the whole point of the song and the vid too) but she also likes his LIES. i dont know if any of you have ever been in a relationship with an addict or a compulsive liar, but i have, and its the lies that make you crazy, absolutely batshit crazy, probably more so than anything else. and here we have a womans voice the whole time saying not only that she likes him lying to her, but that she LOVES it! women love crazy-making too! oh yeah bring on the prozac and the funny farm, cause we LOOOOOVE that the most.

i didnt even know it was rhianna singing the female part, until i looked up the video. and THAT added a whole new dimension of fucked up-ness to it. i dont know why they used megan fox and the little dude from the hobbit (is that him??) why not just have rhianna and chris brown play the abusive couple. now that would be hawt. of course, rhianna is taking some shit for participating in this, because she is supposed to be “taking a hard line” against domestic violence now. which apparently means that DV victims cant make a living in the music industry anymore, but domestic ABUSERS can. oh the shit just keeps going and going on this one doesnt it? and i havent even gotten to the VIDEO aspect of it yet, not really.

did anyone hear this as a song first, before you saw the video? and did you have different reactions to the song without the video, as opposed to playing the audio and video at the same time? because i did. the song, without the images, was fucking haunting. the womans voice saying she LOVES it, that its all okay, even him murdering her was okay with her fucking ripped me to my core. it really did. but when i watched the video…well it was all very sexy wasnt it? YAY PIV! yay volatile relationships! yay skinny white kids. yay playing house. and…well the GUY is on fire, in the end. yes, HE is being burned alive by his…passion? while she is being tied to a bed and burned alive, for real. mens emotional pain inflicted on themselves through their own crazy-making obsessiveness and violence, is the same thing as womens physical pain, inflicted on women by men. its JUST AS BAD. it hurts JUST AS MUCH. oh sure it does.

damn this really got to me.

30. SheilaG - August 17, 2010

If this same film had been made about Palestinians and Israelis, I think they would call it hate video.

factcheckme - August 17, 2010

BTW, I’m a complete ass for saying “abusive couple.”

31. SheilaG - August 17, 2010

Sonia you had some interesting points about Daly and Dworkin.
Daly was very honest to women — there was no point with men, they were too far gone, and that women needed to rediscover their own land. Her separatism was dynamic and wonderful, and also very optimistic. She completely and utterly believed in women, and I think many women of her generation 1920s and 1930s were visionary that way.

She was a very happy optimistic woman who achieved her dreams and then some. That a woman of 1928 could absolutely reject all hetero indoctrination, and not fall for the marriage trap or even any sexual connection with men whatsoever speaks to a huge mind, someone who could resist the patriarchy and pirate back booty for women to destroy it.

I think that’s why I feel the closest to her of all the radical feminists, and why when I apply her philosophy step-by-step, I actually get spectacular results.

I love Dworkin, she’s right on, but I just don’t relate to liberal attitude toward men. She was heroic in trying to get laws passed, which Daly didn’t do, and I think battered women in particular owe her a debt.

Daly was about transcendant revolution, changing the entire planet, and believe reform was impossible. Dworkin was a reformist.

factcheckme - August 17, 2010

In case anyone is wondering, that sound you just heard was every single fun-fem and third wave man’s head exploding, at the same time. Dworkin was too liberal (or perhaps was at one point and became less so over time?) in her attitude about men! Love it!

32. sonia - August 18, 2010

LOLz. I guess we all just kind of ROCK uncontrollably around here.

“She was a very happy optimistic woman who achieved her dreams and then some. That a woman of 1928 could absolutely reject all hetero indoctrination, and not fall for the marriage trap or even any sexual connection with men whatsoever speaks to a huge mind, someone who could resist the patriarchy and pirate back booty for women to destroy it.”

True. I love Dworkin too, but for me this is the most amazing thing about Daly. I don’t want to enter into critical territory of PIV-having women, but I wonder if she just never incurred some of the trauma that goes with that. Not saying that was the whole package, but I have wondered if that was a part of it. I know PIV has damaged me, I’d never speak for anyone else, but I know it’s had a psychic effect on me that I’m still working to release.

In any case, this paragraph is right on. she really was the most woman identified writer I have ever read. Like, if the revolution ever had come and you had to get in someone’s camp I would have jumped in my hoopty and driven to Boston and deposited myself on her doorstep. Or something.

33. SheilaG - August 18, 2010

Dworkin was a liberal, and Daly was a radical. Again, it comes down to women who where sexually free of men and those who had penis contamination. Simplistic yes, but who wants to debate the basics here?

factcheckme - August 18, 2010

Sheila, I really object to this characterization of straight women’s trauma-bonding with men they’ve had piv with, as “penis contamination.” I really do. I have a whole post up about that in fact. It’s in the sidebar.

factcheckme - August 18, 2010

See “trauma bonding.”

34. sonia - August 18, 2010

that’s what I was trying to broach without going THERE. There has to be a way to talk about the trauma that PIV induces without dogging out women who have it. Saying that it’s contaminating is sooo misogynist. Saying it’s traumatic, you can still imply compassion.

35. delphyne - August 18, 2010

SheilaG on Andrea Dworkin:

“Dworkin was a liberal, and Daly was a radical. Again, it comes down to women who where sexually free of men and those who had penis contamination.”

Mary Daly on Andrea Dworkin:

“The prophet Andrea Dworkin”

Firstly you cannot describe Dworkin as not a radical when she deconstructed the whole institution of intercourse and what it meant for women and for our freedom, and at the same time bringing the wrath of the patriarchy down on her head. Secondly, is it really necessary to set the two against each other? They were both geniuses, they both offered everything to women (the truth about men and the patriarchy and the route to our freedom) . Thirdly, this contamination thingie keeps coming up – and I’m sure I’ve seen Dworkin on the receiving end of similar before. Maybe the real problem is that her work is “contaminated by the penis”, in other words she wrote about the harm men have wreaked on women with their penises, and some people find that hard to deal with for whatever reason, their own trauma included.

But to say that “contamination by the penis” stops a woman being a radical is just not true. I think maybe the difference between Daly and Dworkin’s work was that Daly was a philosopher and Dworkin was a writer at heart. Dworkin’s world was literature and its meanings, Daly’s world was philosophy and thought. Philosophy gives you the tools to get right to the bottom of things, which is why there is such a taboo on women being philosophers as Daly herself pointed out. Mary Daly became a philosopher, got to the bottom of things, and then got right out the other side.

36. delphyne - August 18, 2010

FCM I don’t know if she was wrong about the mass delusion, or whether she used it again in her work. If she did she probably didn’t say it in the same terms.

I’d say men have split minds – they know this stuff is wrong but at the same time they create a mass fantasy for them all to share, which they can refer back to in order to justify themselves about what they do to women. Then again, maybe I’m wrong, maybe they know the whole thing is a lie and they are fully aware all the time of the harm they are doing, and it’s us women hoping on some level that they don’t really mean it which is why we imagine delusions on their part.

37. SheilaG - August 18, 2010

Yeah, I guess I will say that Dworkin and Daly belong together, but I don’t see the desire to have men learn this stuff as having value, because they aren’t going to do it. In that sense, I didn’t see Dworkin as quite as visionary as Mary Daly, who was inventing feminist philosophy. Both women were uncovering the patriarchy and revealing it to women.

And yes, men know exactly what they are doing and continue doing it.
As long as women keep having sex with men, keep bearing children, and keep marrying men I don’t see much hope for change here. Women want to believe all kinds of things about men that are not true, and men revel in telling outright lies to women, and they brag about this all the time.

38. SheilaG - August 18, 2010

I just don’t see men as living in delusion, I believe their actions are calculated and self-serving. They have no interest in women as real human beings, and the sooner all women get this one point, the better off we’ll all be.

39. FemmeForever - August 18, 2010

Preach it. She She.

factcheckme - August 18, 2010

Thanks delphyne.

40. sonia - August 19, 2010

I didn’t see us as putting them against each other but being interested in what different radfems have said over time about whether men can understand and come around. Obvs Dworkin kicked ass in every single direction🙂

41. SheilaG - August 19, 2010

Dworkin took no prisoners; she was realistic in many ways. But I still think her fatal flaw was a belief that the oppressors were capable of changing and of humanity. 25 some years after woman hating was written, I see clear evidense that men have actually become more toxic, more demented, and more oppressive to women worldwide.

As long as this female illusion of “men will change” continues, slavery will be permanent for women. And, after all the evidense out there, I am at a loss as to what will wake women up worldwide to real action — half the human race, still waiting for something that is never ever going to happen. That is truly scary. I guess that’s why Daly is so much more powerful to me, because I think of all the radical feminist writers out there, she knew this, she had a larger vision than all of them. You know, she died back in January, and I still really really miss her living voice.

factcheckme - August 19, 2010

do you think dworkin really thought that men could get feminism, and that they could change who and how they are on a deep level? or did she only think it was possible for them to stop raping us? granted, if rape ended, everything would change on a deep level, and it would take a significant shift for men to stop perpetrating rape…but behavior modification is really a pretty superficial change, and doesnt require as much work or frankly intelligence as “getting” feminism for example. the doodbros prove they can modify thier behavior every day, when they refrain from farting in public, and they dont drop the n-bomb when speaking with black MEN, even though they are all racist assholes too.

anyone? i dont want to mischaracterize dworkins “hope” for men, or exaggerate it. she spoke to men about rape, she told them look, women dont give a flying fuck if you “feel your feelings” or any of that new age shit, we just want you to stop raping us. did she really think men as a group would “get” radical feminism? because thats not the same thing, not by a long shot.

as an aside, her long-term partner wrote a book about masculinities, i dont remember the name. and i have absolutely no interest in reading it, at all.

factcheckme - August 19, 2010

and it does seem like men are getting worse, doesnt it? i noted in the what about teh menz thread that they seem to hate their kids even more now than they ever did…but i wonder too if technology is just revealing whats been there the whole time, and/or the groupthink mentality is so strong when men get together online in an anonymous setting that things just escalate when they are discussing HOW MUCH THEY HATE THIER OWN CHILDREN, how much they want to literally kill and maim their exes, on child support threads for example is where this comes out and its so revealing, it really is. and delphyne (i think?) has mentioned here before how it seems like internet porn has revealed mens true colors in many ways, and now we all see what they have been thinking the whole time, its come to life for the rest of us and its almost unbelievably awful.

are they getting worse? or are they just not bothering to hide it anymore? guess it would be difficult to know.

42. FemmeForever - August 19, 2010

it does seem like men are getting worse, doesnt it?

FCM, there is a recent book about this cultural phenomenon. It’s a cultural/media analysis called “Hating Women” by Rabbi S. Boteach. The first half of the book is right on but then I had to stop reading because after delineating all the blatant hating in our culture he then switches gears in the second half to mostly blame women for the problem. But before that it was like the book I wanted to write.

factcheckme - August 19, 2010

That’s really aggravating when a book takes a dump like that isn’t it? Lemme guess, its feminists fault for making women so uppity, so men can no longer put us on a pedastal like they used to? Please. They never even did that, or at least it was never a bar to them raping abusing and murdering us, was it?

43. Level Best - August 19, 2010

“when men get together online in an anonymous setting that things just escalate when they are discussing HOW MUCH THEY HATE THIER OWN CHILDREN, how much they want to literally kill and maim their exes”

FemmeForever, I had heard that about Boteach’s book, so I didn’t read it. I am excited about a book I just received, Marilee Strong’s Erased: Missing Women, Murdered Wives. I haven’t started it yet, from what I’ve seen about the book, Strong does some analysis about men who feel entitled to obliterate their wives. According to Publishers Weekly, “In her exhaustively researched account of the Scott Peterson trial and similar cases, journalist Strong (A Bright Red Scream) makes a convincing case that there is a growing number of men—whom she calls eraser killers—who murder their wives or girlfriends with premeditation and dispose of the body in an attempt to make both the crime and the victim disappear. They kill, says Strong, because the woman no longer serves any ‘purpose’ in the man’s emotionally desolate world, or because he sees her as an obstacle to a life he fantasizes for himself. “

44. Level Best - August 19, 2010

And “emotionally desolate” goes back to the phenomenon of male “zero-ness.”

factcheckme - August 19, 2010

i am glad that people are finally using words that mean something, when talking about this stuff levelbest. like “obliterate.” that is such a great word, unlike the misnomers we are accustomed to, like “family violence” or “abusive relationships” or any of it. loretta mentioned several times the term “family annihilators” used for men who murder their entire families, when the news and every single other outlet uses words and phrases like “tragedy” or “nice guy who snapped” when this happens. but thats NOT what happened. even “murder-suicide” doesnt convey the reality of a situation, when a man murders his entire family, even babies and toddlers and disabled children, even fighting and overpowering teenaged children who are old enough to try to defend themselves, and then offs himself so he doesnt have to go to fucking prison for what he did.

that sounds like a great book!

45. Level Best - August 19, 2010

Loretta of Newsvine? She’s a peach, and “family annihilators” is the truth about these men. Monsters. I just wish more people would tell the truth, you know? I suspect some writers/bloggers see what’s going on and comfortably hide behind our culture goggles in their reportage, because if they told the truth they’d not be as popular (hah! I had typed “poopular,” which is pretty much what I think the apologists are!).

I hope the Marilee Strong book will be good. I’m trying to actually FINISH a book before starting another one, so I can reduce the height of the wobbly stack on my nightstand. I also hope the book sells, just so a conversation can be started among the general population about this phenomenon. But I’m afraid too many people are living in their own private Idaho’s…

factcheckme - August 19, 2010

yes, loretta tells it like it is. we met on newsvine and took on the liberal dickwads essentially single-handedly (often together) for about a year. now shes doing it alone, after i left cause i couldnt take it anymore! she doesnt come around in the comments section as much lately, but i think shes still reading. so “hi loretta!” and “drop a link to your family annihilators articles, if you want!”

factcheckme - August 19, 2010

ps. i have a new post up. enjoy.

46. FemmeForever - August 19, 2010

Level Best, every time I hear another one of those stories in the media they make me twitch with rage. I’ve been thinking a lot lately about Laci Petersen and how she must’ve been the happiest she’d ever been. She had everything she always wanted. A cute husband she adored and a baby on the way. I keep thinking about how confused she must have been when he was murdering her. Her last thought must have been, how can the person I love most in the world be murdering me and our child? It’s crushingly sad.

The other case that had me fit to be tied was that one where the husband was married to a med student?, I think, or anyway a brilliant up and coming professional who had her whole life and career ahead of her. He had won her by concocting a totally fraudulent identity/education for himself. When she discovered that he was a fraud, he murdered her because he couldn’t live with her knowing his zeroness. A perfectly exceptional, sacred life snuffed out because a loser couldn’t face the reality of his nothingness. Every time I think about it I want to punch something.

47. FemmeForever - August 19, 2010

Second case was Lori Hacking.

48. Mary Sunshine - August 20, 2010

This thread is a treasure. Just sayin’. 😀

factcheckme - August 20, 2010

Ff, I have thought about that too, what their last thoughts must have been. It’s just god awful, it really is.

49. Rachel - August 22, 2010

I was craving a cheeseburger the day I chose my avatar. Now that you reminded me of that Eminem video, I’m craving a cocktail. My sister made me watch that the day I got back from MichFest and I was like, “Gee, thanks. I’d almost forgotten heterosexuality existed.”

I still have the eulogy that Daly wrote about Dworkin for The Boston Globe, in which she praises Dworkin’s courage and “Elemental Feminist Genius”. She certainly wouldn’t call Dworkin a liberal, and neither would I.

50. advertising, fairy tales and pornography | anti social butterfly - August 26, 2010

[…] The message however, had barely shifted. Womyn are inheritly evil, stubborn, selfish, whores, only worth their physical embodiment and ultimately they are best kept dead, or as close to death as possible. The only value womyn are […]


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