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Sorry, Fun-Fems, But Wearing High Heels Is Totally Ableist October 7, 2010

Posted by FCM in feminisms, health, pop culture, rape, sorry!, thats mean, trans.
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podiatry snuff film

this pic just never gets old.  okay, yes it does.  but its not my fault that its relevant to almost everything i talk about.  seriously.  i just work here.

i think it was over on the footbinding thread that i was being all ableist.  actually, i do it a lot.  i did it on the developmentally disabled rapists thread too.  i am shameless when it comes to being ableist, mostly because i dont think “ableism” exists.  not really.  or rather, i dont think that possibly offending minority men is ever a good enough reason not to discuss something that primarily affects women, and not men.  like…footbinding, and developmentally disabled rapists.  so i talk about them.  get over it.

not everyone takes that tack though, and they do care about it.  and its to those people i am currently speaking.  or…speaking about, behind their backs. thats probably more accurate.  although my stats are, like, sky-high and have been for some time, ever since a certain candyass reading-comprehension challenged male womens studies professor linked here about a dozen times, and some of his readers actually followed the links, despite his assertions that all my work was precisely and accurately summed up over at his place.  and then those readers stayed.  interesting!  but i digress.

see, fun-fems think that “ableism” is a problem, and they try to avoid it at all costs.  apparently, they frequently feel like they are oppressing each other with their gobs and gobs of (female?) privilege or something, and they bandy many such made-up terms about actually, that have something to do with “privilege” but they arent really sure what, just someone called someone out on it once and now its kinda like leprosy or something.  OOPS!  i said leprosy.  was that ableist?  oh well!  luckily, i dont care about being ableist.  not really.  but the fun-fems do.  and i think theres something they seriously need to consider.

see, i think its pretty obvious that wearing high heeled shoes is ableist.  sorry!  but it is.  teetering around on sky-high heels that are thoroughly disabling in the moment, making you an easy target for predators and making even the most innocent looking stretch of sidewalk your worst enemy is dangerous, and could get you seriously hurt.  thats why its stupid.  but its ableist because you get to take them off, when its not fun anymore.  okay?  its ableist because differently-abled people (notice the gender-neutrality!) are legitimately confounded by innocent-looking stretches of sidewalk all the time.  they are actually, in real life, limited or prevented from doing things that they want and need to do, by things like…high curbs.  uneven pavement.  garbage.

and when you wear high heels, so are you.  but you think its fun.  and if it ever becomes not-fun, you can just take off your shoes.  viola!  but not everyone can.  and this is kind of a problem, to anyone who actually believes that being ableist is wrong.  in fact, this kind of even offends me, and i barely even care about it.

and of course, high-heels are pretty much guaranteed to literally cripple you at some point, where you will need surgery to correct the damage, or will just have to live with being disabled.  by your own doing.  by your own choice.  to teeter around on disabling footwear for years, decades even, being fucking ableist every time you do, and culminating in the most ableist event of all: permanently crippling yourself, when you had the choice not to.  woo-hoo!  now thats good ableism.

when some people were born with real, actual physical challenges, and have to struggle every fucking day just to get out the door and down the street.  or, you know, they cant.  and when some others were injured or took ill somewhere along the way, and their health and livelihoods were stolen from them by something they couldnt control.

you can control it, and you are choosing to disable yourself, for fun, AND you claim to care about such things.  why is any of this okay with you?  this is a serious question.

from there, i guess i would include unnecessary surgeries, including plastic surgery and sex-reassignment surgery too.  i mean really.  its like some people are so interested in faking their way through life, that they forget what life is about.  and one thing life is about is risk.  every day you are alive is another day that something seriously bad could happen to you.  you might get sick.  you might get injured.  you might need necessary surgery, to correct something that has gone wrong with you.

because while every “elective” surgery you have could kill you, it doesnt mean that you wont also need necessary surgery too, down the line.  one of each, and you are doubling your chances of complications.  one of each, and you are doubling your chances of dying under anesthesia, or from a blood clot, or an infection, or medical malpractice, or any number of things that can go wrong with any surgery.  and…you dont always die.  what more frequently happens, actually, is that you end up living a good long time afterwards, with the disabling effects of surgical complications that dont actually kill you.  and you did it on purpose.

also ableist!  that is all.

Comments

1. berryblade - October 7, 2010

I think it was over at dirt’s blog where she had written about self-loathing women (FTM) and “bottom surgery” aka the creation of an artificial phallus and how often it rots off/goes gangrenous/etc, not to mention, a friend sent me a link the other day about MTF high-price self mutilation and how now they actually make part of the neo-vagina with the colon wall.

TBQH I’ve never gotten this whole “abelist” crap, I had someone “call me out” on using words like stupid and lame and that’s exactly the first two words that sprang to mind.

Like Skeptifem mentioned, what about all teh menz born without their dicks? Haha.

2. Undercover Punk - October 7, 2010

Hell YES. I got in trouble one time (yes, again!) on a thread @ Sociological Images that discussed Lady Gaga’s Paparazzi video. At least, I think that’s the one. Anyways, I said that NO ONE who was truly disabled could wear high heels like LG and that it was a blatant misrepresentation of disabilities. Not edgy. And not in any way making a meaningful political statement about disability visibility. Duh. A few people were like, but my SISTER is in a wheelchair and she wears high heels. Oh, shut up! She can’t WALK in them, though. That’s the point.

And I need to tribute Miska here, for the making the distinction between different KINDS of dis-abilities. I used to represent claimants in Social Security disability cases here in the US. There were SO MANY different kinds! Some you could see, some you couldn’t. These people are NOT the SAME. So using one overarching term– “ableist”– to describe their “class” just doesn’t work. At all.

Yes, high heels cause ACTUAL PHYSICAL DAMAGE to women and limit ambulation ON PURPOSE. It completely trivializes the experiences of people with *unwanted* physical limitations. But somehow it’s OK because it’s SO normal and society just LOVES women in high heels.

factcheckme - October 7, 2010

the other day, i saw a woman wearing a full-leg brace on one leg, walking with a cane, and on the other foot: a high heel. she was obviously straining, and her one “good” leg looked like it was having an absolutley miserable time of it and wasnt going to take much more. can you imagine? i wondered what the living fuck she was thinking, and why didnt she just put on a tennis shoe on her ONE GOOD LEG. then i wondered if she even HAD any flat or athletic shoes. or perhaps her calf muscle and tendons had shortened to the point that she couldnt even wear flats anymore, which is extremely common. this woman was in a bad way, and absolutely going to have ZERO good legs very soon. i couldnt believe what i was seeing.

then i saw almost the same thing on another woman a few days later. ugh.

3. kristina - October 7, 2010

There was actually a show on how the normal practices of women like wearing high heels…ha ha I typed hells at first…was actually to APPEAR disabled and an easy target…. and lipstick was to mimic how the lips get flush during arousal, and blush to mimic the flush of cheeks during attraction…no wonder our society is over sexed, we constantly think of women in a state of arousal… it’s funny how it also correlates with the women that are considered attractive…i.e. one who is always willing to fuck.

factcheckme - October 7, 2010

yes, i was going to say something about how PIV-pos is always primary, and all the other causes the fun-fems pretend to care about always take a back seat (heh) to PIV. but the post was getting too long as it was. but YES, PIV-pos takes center stage to everything else doesnt it? if its ableist AND piv-pos, like oh say HIGH HEELS then the heels win out. if its PIV-pos and classist, like oh say SPENDING DISCRETIONARY INCOME ON FUCKABILITY ACCESSORIES, then the accessories win out. PIV-pos in itself is ableist, AND discriminates against teh poor menz, because even they get tired of it eventually and their dicks dont work anymore, or they have spinal cord injuries etc. and they have to take viagra, an elective pharmaceutical that can KILL YOU. (oh teh poor dears, they have to take a risk in order to put women at risk through PIV). oh well! the PIV-pos wins out AGAIN. even when it hurts teh poor mens.

completely ignoring how PIV-pos harms women of course. but thats kind of beside the point of fun-feminism. PIV-pos does active harm to the other things they SAY they care about…and this isnt a problem for them, at all. what a surprise!

4. berryblade - October 7, 2010

Yes, high heels cause ACTUAL PHYSICAL DAMAGE to women and limit ambulation ON PURPOSE. It completely trivializes the experiences of people with *unwanted* physical limitations. But somehow it’s OK because it’s SO normal and society just LOVES women in high heels.

Yes! It’s because patriarchy has warped people into thinking that a prone womon = sexy womon, and I think it was Dworkin who mentioned that womyn have been deemed unsuitable for physical activity and have had their clothing adjusted to reduce that ability accordingly.

then i wondered if she even HAD any flat or athletic shoes.

Probably not sadly. It seems many middle-upper class white western womyn seem to go their entire lives without wearing any comfortable + practical footwear.

Kristina,

Have you read Beauty & Misogyny by Sheila Jeffreys? She talks about how a lot of these practices originate in prostitution hence the faking desire/arousal thing that’s transfered into our increasingly porno-tastic culture.

5. kristina - October 7, 2010

I have absolutely no money to get the book…and haven’t accessed a library locally yet… it’s really not that I don’t want to read it, but am very limited to find the resources…I’ve tried torrents, but technology being male dominated it’s hard to find…actually impossible…I’ve tried… there are absolutely NO feminist books on torrent sites, and I would feel bad not paying for it anyway…I don’t think my local library carries it anyway…they have a feature to check for the books online, but it’s not listed.

6. kristina - October 7, 2010

I’m trying so hard to see the best in men, but lately all I hear are the loudest voices…the ones that say hey dude…you’re having a tough time…go to a strip club…I recently got into an argument on facebook in where I said well gee if strippers are the answer to everything why aren’t they treated better and have better rights? I basically got a response saying my husband was a bitch and cries a lot…how that had anything to do with strip clubs is beyond me…

7. berryblade - October 7, 2010

I’d be willing to scan a bit of it for you if you like🙂

8. kristina - October 7, 2010

I would love that!

9. berryblade - October 7, 2010

Cool bananas, I’ll try and do it tomorrow and post it on my site as a PDF file or something. I’ll try and stick to the parts that are relevant to this thread/FCM’s writing.

factcheckme - October 7, 2010

if you are actually TRYING (straining?) to “see the good in men” and even you are starting to realize there isnt any…or that there is so little that its barely even worth trying so hard…well then thats saying something isnt it? maybe someday you will even stop trying to give them the benefit of the doubt, and you will see what the world looks like from there. its not pretty, but at least you dont have to give yourself hemorrhoids from the straining. seriously.

10. berryblade - October 7, 2010

Agreed FCM, kristina, if you don’t have expectations of men, you can’t be disappointed, that’s one the best points of feminism – centring your energies around womyn and not having to “try” and see the “good” in men.

11. kristina - October 7, 2010

Thanks berryblade!

Yeah FCM…I am getting tired of the straining…I really just fear alienating my husband whom the majority of the time isn’t that kind of dickhead…he kind of understands…he says I hate men, just not him…which is kind of a cognitive dissonance going on there… it’s weird but the last thing I want is a divorce, one in which I would have to file because he says no matter how tough it gets he wants to stay with me…which can be interpreted many ways…I’m putting stuff out there for you guys to read and the last thing I want is to be told what I should do…that is what I honestly fear, that I would be told I need to leave him…while he’s not a walk in the park, he’s not a dick…and adding to the mountain of problems of everyday life would be tough as shit.

factcheckme - October 7, 2010

i cant believe i even have to say this, kristina, but you have alluded to it about sixteen thousand times now, both here and other places. i am not telling women what to do here. i know good and damn well what the stakes are, for women, if they come to these conclusions on thier own, and decide to make changes. and i know good and goodamned well that the shit WILL hit the fan, and that only a very lucky and privileged woman is even in the position to do any of this, in the first place. and thats when THEY do it, on their own. i absolutely will not be responsible for telling anyone to take on these very severe consequences. thats up to everyone here, to decide on their own.

the only ones who are telling anyone what to do, in point of fact, are the fucking sex-pozzies, who have an agenda OTHER THAN telling women the fucking truth. hence the name “sex-positive.” thats their starting point, and they wont let anything get in the way of their clearly stated agenda. i dont know why thats not completely fucking obvious to everyone, but there it is. its clear as fucking day. do what you will.

12. kristina - October 7, 2010

Okay lol…I get it now… I guess it’s just something I’m used to…sadly

factcheckme - October 7, 2010

imagine what the fucking sex-pozzies (and teh menz) must be thinking, when they hear us talking about the “very severe consequences” of women, to giving up PIV. does it even begin to scratch the surface of their idiotic rhetoric? does it make them think about womens “agency” at all? and…has any of the stuff about the consequences to women of NOT giving up PIV (ie. HAVING PIV) sunk in with them, at all?

if it has, i can only imagine that it would have a severe boner-killing affect. i mean, one can only imagine, and hope, that this would be some kind of a turn off. i know, i am probably WAY too optomistic. but the fact of the matter is that there are literally hundreds of readers here now, that werent here before. and they arent commenting, and they arent linking. to me, this suggests that they MIGHT actually be reading. what, if anything, are they thinking? inquiring minds want to know. kind of.

13. kristina - October 7, 2010

I guess I’m case and point…my mind is literally fucked because of the mere existence of PIV…sounds mind blowing if you don’t connect the dots.

14. Sargassosea - October 7, 2010

“A few people were like, but my SISTER is in a wheelchair and she wears high heels. Oh, shut up! She can’t WALK in them, though. That’s the point.”

That was just funny, UP. Thanks! (btw – trying to catch up on your earlier related post!)

“the other day, i saw a woman wearing a full-leg brace on one leg, walking with a cane, and on the other foot: a high heel.”

Funny (but not really) too! Who says we’re humorless?

Seriously though I have scoliosis which physically limits me in all kinds of ways, so yeah, heels (and bags) would be totally “ableist” from my point of view… if I played that game. Luckily I don’t and would like to promote the Dworkin uniform as an excellent choice of dress – it is utilitarian (pockets!) and comfortable (beer belly!) – shoes/boots are optional of course🙂

15. sonia - October 7, 2010

Snarky!!😉 love love love.

Sigh. I’m wearing heels right now. And a draped skirt. I have NOTHING to say for myself.

However, I’m loving how you used something you don’t even believe in to talk some smack on funfems.

16. sonia - October 7, 2010

@UP:

Dude, there needs to be a whole blog about Lady Gaga and what her statements mean to the feminist world. How she wore that fucking meat dress to the VMAs and then tried to make it a feminist statement. Did anyone else see that? of course you did, it was on Ellen and every tv show on the planet. It sucks that she does shit like that, and also that even though she speaks up for everyone (read=gay men) she won’t say anything real or relevant or whip a braincell out about women.

ah, the empowered generation.

factcheckme - October 7, 2010

Are you wearing any pants sonia? Or just a long shirt and heels? Better be careful, hugos probably around here somewhere, and getting a woody.

Also, they really do make it too easy don’t they? I mean really. Any noob can point out an internal inconsistency. And today, I AM THAT NOOB.

17. sonia - October 7, 2010

LOLz. oh the work attire. then at 7pm I turn into the scrubbiest hippie on the face of earth.. thanks for that hugo visual, I really will be anti-orgasm for a couple days now😉

factcheckme - October 7, 2010

ACTUALLY, I read an interview with lady gaga where she said she doesn’t have piv, because it feels like men are stealing her creativity through her vagina. Google it. I’ll post the link later.

18. Level Best - October 7, 2010

“[I]magine what. . .sex-pozzies (and teh menz) must be thinking, when they hear us talking about the ‘very severe consequences’ of women, to giving up PIV. does it even begin to scratch the surface of their idiotic rhetoric? does it make them think about womens ‘agency’ at all?”–fcm

I can’t speak for the pozzies, assuming they’re female sex pozzies,but for some men the thought of women homeless and hungry and vulnerable because of giving up PIV and getting pitched out would be a big turn on. This would help them feel quite powerful, like they’re holding women’s well-being in their hands,and quite aroused. I say this because I’ve read about how many john’s will gravitate to the desperate, scraggly, addicted prostitues because they feel very powerful in contrast to them and are sexually stimulated by knowing these women HAVE TO do what men say.

I don’t think women will be able to be free and safe except in the very unlikely event that men become a very small proportion of the world’s population. As in maybe going extinct. Any radfem mad scientists out there working on a formula?

factcheckme - October 7, 2010

Omg, you said a “draped SKIRT.” reading comprehension fail! Sorry. Perhaps the woody was mine.

19. Level Best - October 7, 2010

(Avidly anticipating wild-eyed, terrified objections to my last comment, as if the majority of folks honestly think that one working class woman in the armpit of America can somehow MAKE IT BE by making the dispirited little joke. Sigh.)

20. sonia - October 7, 2010

I don’t want to over-comment here, but just wanted to acknowledge this:

“I really just fear alienating my husband whom the majority of the time isn’t that kind of dickhead…he kind of understands”

and how fucking hard that is. And how hard it is to combat those mental effects of PIV, even when it’s good in other ways. I just want you to know you’re heard and understood, kristina.

21. Level Best - October 7, 2010

“see, fun-fems think that “ableism” is a problem, and they try to avoid it at all costs. apparently, they frequently feel like they are oppressing each other with their gobs and gobs of (female?) privilege or something”–fcm

That would be CIS-SEXUAL PRIVILEGE for $1000, Alex.

22. Undercover Punk - October 7, 2010

Hey berryblade, if you do scan the book or have text sections, I’d love to cross-post them at Feminist Reading Group.🙂

@Sargassosea, when those people were like: but, but, but, but, I have an EXCEPTION!! I was inspired to write an entire to post about the fallacy of the “exceptionalism” argument. It’s a CLASSIC funfem/PIV-pos strategy to suggest that because there are a FEW outliers, that the entire generalization is WRONG. No, there are just a few outliers. There are ALWAYS outliers. It doesn’t mean that men, in general, aren’t huge PIGS. Or that the sky, in general, isn’t blue. You get the point.

@kristina, if your husband is tolerable, no one is going to tell you to leave him. Not here. But also don’t hurt yourself trying to find the good in men. It’s a HUGE waste of energy. And it creates my least favorite thing EVER: misplaced gratitude.

23. joy - October 7, 2010

“I read an interview with lady gaga where she said she doesn’t have piv, because it feels like men are stealing her creativity through her vagina.”

Oh my god holy shit fucking whoa!

That is actually one of the things that turned me off of PIV way before I stopped even, you know. Having PIV.

I could write a whole fucking BOOK about it. In fact, due to a recent experience (not PIV, but a loss of deserved opportunity just because I don’t have PIV) I even can’t, because I would fucking cry and not even be able to articulate it.

Who knew Lady Gaga would actually articulate what I can’t. Guess I can retire now …

factcheckme - October 7, 2010

yes to the cis-priv level best. yes, exactly. but you didnt ask it in the form of a question!

factcheckme - October 7, 2010

Lady Gaga tells Vanity Fair contributing editor Lisa Robinson that she tries to avoid having sex because she is afraid of depleting her creative energy—“I have this weird thing that if I sleep with someone they’re going to take my creativity from me through my vagina.”

She also says that she doesn’t trust anybody and doesn’t know if she ever will. Gaga tells Robinson, “I’m perpetually lonely. I’m lonely when I’m in relationships. It’s my condition as an artist.” Regarding men, she says, “I’m drawn to bad romances. And my song [“Bad Romance”] is about whether I go after those [sort of relationships] or if they find me. I’m quite celibate now; I don’t really get time to meet anyone.”

http://www.vanityfair.com/online/daily/2010/08/lady-gaga-september-issue.html

i dont remember if she elaborates, or even if i read the actual interview now that i think about it. but loretta sent me this as an FYI when it first came out. i guess LG took some shit for her anti-PIV views. what a shock! how dare she!!!11!1

24. joy - October 7, 2010

Wow. Okay. LG put it … much more crazily than I, but still! Nice!

I always feel like men gravitate towards me because they feel I have something they can steal. Something they can leech off of.

Sometimes they underestimate me, think I’m stupid, and then whoa. I knock them the fuck out and threaten them. Which is when they turn on me.

But prior that turning … they really want to just grind me down. In all senses of the word grind. Like that freaky Perfume movie with Ben Whishaw (who I think is adorable to look at and a good actor even though he’s probably a dickhead like most men) — they want to steal something vital about me, some essence, some talent that they lack.

This relates back to high heels and beauty bullshit. Keep us hobbled physically and financially, and it’s easier to hobble us mentally, steal our minds for their own uses.

Look at all the women whose work has been reappropriated or even outright stolen by men (usually their husbands).
Some people say, and I believe it based upon their evidence and my own, that Zelda Fitzgerald wrote The Great Gatsby and F. Scott stole it.
Likewise with Joan Kerouac and parts of, if not most of, On The Road.

Zelda Fitzgerald got so beaten down that she wound up institutionalized and died of smoke inhalation because she didn’t even give enough of a damn to get out of bed when the building caught fire.
Joan Kerouac had Jack’s baby without his support, and died destitute with almost none of her works published under her own name.

These are only two of the fucking THOUSANDS. If not MILLIONS.

Lady Gaga is wise to avoid PIV, no matter what weird justifications she spins for it. Just for her own sake as a human being.

25. joy - October 7, 2010

” I knock them the fuck out and threaten them. Which is when they turn on me.”

By which I mean, surprise them with my creativity and intelligence. Which often outshines their own.

This is typically before any actual physical threatening or knocking out that I need to do, to the ones who want to get their claws in and hang on until, I think they think, I’ll collapse like an elephant under siege by lions.

Heh. When I’ve mentioned this elsewhere, Isabel (the troll I’ve mentioned, dunno if she’s ever showed up here) told me I was essentially delusional and had pride issues. I think it’s the opposite. Look at all the supposedly great works of “art” out there, and tell me almost any given woman couldn’t do better. It’s not rocket science, or even far-fetched.

26. sonia - October 7, 2010

yeah that just blew my entire mind and changed my opinions of LG as well as being the most profound feminist statement I’ve ever heard through the mainstream media. what the actual fuck.

27. mscitrus - October 7, 2010

On the post:

I think you had said a little sentence on this in a comment on some thread a while ago-I hoped you would expand on it. Yay! Since you said that I’ve been offended by heels as well. I agree with this post so much.

That is a pretty rad comment from Lady Gaga, wow. But do we get to call lady gaga a misandrist prude or a creationist now?

@Kristina

“Yeah FCM…I am getting tired of the straining…I really just fear alienating my husband whom the majority of the time isn’t that kind of dickhead…he kind of understands…he says I hate men, just not him…which is kind of a cognitive dissonance going on there…”

I understand that feeling-I strained to see good in men in my last relationship so badly. Somehow, despite me sucking his dick every weekend, he snapped that I “hated men” because I said Obama was a wimp and a jerk for keeping that speech writer who “jokingly” groped the Hilary cutout. I’ve come to see you’ll most likely be called a man-hater if you criticize the way a man/men treat women at all.

“I’m putting stuff out there for you guys to read and the last thing I want is to be told what I should do…that is what I honestly fear, that I would be told I need to leave him…”

I dun think anyone here wants to tell you or any other woman what to do. The only people who really get told to do stuff by radfems are men, and then we just wish they’d stop raping and otherwise endangering women.

“while he’s not a walk in the park, he’s not a dick…and adding to the mountain of problems of everyday life would be tough as shit.”

I understand this. Things with my nigel have gradually gotten better, because a lot of the “little” things dudes do in relationships or just in general we’ve talked about. Like, as an example, one thing I’ve noticed men do, is when you point out that you’ve always been the one to do xyz and that’s unfair, they’ll argue back that they did xyz one time or twice. (This typically happens right after you complain about them NOT doing xyz; then they do it once and drop it.) For example, like UP said, the over gratefulness towards men who are decent. My lover knows he doesn’t deserve praise for not watching porn, not complaining about not getting intercourse or sex, etc. I still thank him even tho I know I shouldn’t because of female conditioning, and he tries to remind me not to thank him when I do, instead of just sucking it up.

factcheckme - October 7, 2010

yeah right? i have never, and i mean NEVER heard anything PIV-critical like that in the mainstream media, and never anything from anyone who is supposed to be a total sex kitten like gaga. imagine madonna saying something like that, ever. you just cant. it also didnt exactly make the news. it was very quickly silenced, after she got a little bit of obligatory shit for it.

factcheckme - October 7, 2010

That is a pretty rad comment from Lady Gaga, wow. But do we get to call lady gaga a misandrist prude or a creationist now?

i guess, both?

factcheckme - October 7, 2010

so im just thinking about that lady gaga quote, and she was really brave for saying that in a freaking interview with vanity fair wasnt she? damn. she could have so easily just not said a damn thing about it, even if she did feel that way. she could have made up some shit about how much she loves it. but she didnt. and i am 100% sure that her record label, publicist, agent, fans, EVERYONE wished like hell she hadnt said it. but she did. pretty amazing.

factcheckme - October 7, 2010

also, its pretty telling that her PIV-critical line got swept under the rug, in favor of all the ridiculous antics and other shit that can easily be read as anti-feminist, or just edgy, or trite. like the meat suit or whatever. this woman is smart, and shes staying off the cock, and shes telling people about it. too bad noones really listening to THAT.

28. mscitrus - October 7, 2010

Eep, posted my comment before it was done. Sorry! Erase the first example about men doing stuff in token amounts-I meant to change my example, not add a second. Tho what I said about men’s behaviour is still true. :X

29. kristina - October 8, 2010

Thank you so much girls!!! To think, the only problem I had in the first place was caused by me not opening up…go figure…what men do… ;P

factcheckme - October 8, 2010

actually i’d say that “opening up” to the wrong people is worse than not opening up at all. although i am sure old hugo enjoyed it. alot. just saying.

factcheckme - October 8, 2010

just, ew. and youre welcome.

30. berryblade - October 8, 2010

Sonia,

Ahh, I love what you say about Ms. Gaga, although I’m a ‘fan’ of her music (although, I use that term VERY loosely) it does seem disappointing that she only seems to give a shit about gay men + the tyrannies. Lesbians are non existent to her, unless it’s some kind of performance (I’m looking at *you* LoveGame video clip,) I’m gonna mention Otep again (just cos she’s awesome) and when she talks about homosexuality, you know she’s talking about LESBIANISM, where as I think Gaga might be more concerned about being the biggest “fag hag” + having “girly” buddies or some shit. Why so many straight womyn thought having male gay friends is good for ‘girly’ time has always been beyond me, it’s like, jesus, they don’t LIKE womyn, they admit it.

FCM,

“ACTUALLY, I read an interview with lady gaga where she said she doesn’t have piv, because it feels like men are stealing her creativity through her vagina. Google it. I’ll post the link later.”

Fuck yeah, that’s actually pretty nifty. And she might even be attempting to allude to the importance of womon’s space + creativity? Or maybe I’m just vastly over-estimating her feminist credentials.

This would help them feel quite powerful, like they’re holding women’s well-being in their hands,and quite aroused. I say this because I’ve read about how many john’s will gravitate to the desperate, scraggly, addicted prostitues because they feel very powerful in contrast to them and are sexually stimulated by knowing these women HAVE TO do what men say.

I think you are on to something here, Level Best. This instantly made me think of Ms. Aileen Wuornos (the real deal, not me) and how the first john she killed was a known notorious, violent and abusive pay-per-raper to the prostituted womyn in the area and even to the police. He must have thought when he took her into isolation, “sweet, found some ugly bi@tch, who will do what ever I want cos she’s desperate for cash” and BANG she fuckin’ showed him.

Any radfem mad scientists out there working on a formula?

Oh I have, except it’ll be more of a zed for zombpocalyspe style human-erasing than anything😉

UCP, sure thing my sweet, I’d be happy too, did you or Kristina want any section in the book in particular? Or any information in particular from it?

yeah right? i have never, and i mean NEVER heard anything PIV-critical like that in the mainstream media, and never anything from anyone who is supposed to be a total sex kitten like gaga. imagine madonna saying something like that, ever. you just cant. it also didnt exactly make the news. it was very quickly silenced, after she got a little bit of obligatory shit for it.

You have a very valid point here FCM, I’ve never heard anything so PIV critical in male-stream media as well, I know Beth Ditto is a dyke, but isn’t she Karl Lagerfeld’s muse-du-jour? It’s not like the media would ever ask Ditto about anything that wasn’t do with her being fat though.

31. Let'sGetReal - October 8, 2010

It has literally been a relief reading this blog. For the past few days I’ve been going through a lot of emotional pain in ending a relationship that initially seemed good. At some point, I did not want to have sex with him, PIV or any kind. It just messed with my head to do so. The PIV ended a while ago. I thought we could be friends and it seemed like we were for a while. He stopped the friendship because he’s going to be in another sexual relationship. I really have not been able to figure out why I was in such emotional pain at this ending. I’ve gone very, very long stretches without relationships and that’s been ok. I did not want a sexual relationship with him and I still don’t understand why I’ve been in this pain. It makes no sense.

One thing about this relationship is that he was attracted to me at a time when I had some space to do some creative work. My life was in a very good place. He moved into that space and suddenly I was doing all the work, both physical work (he moved in with me) and emotional work, tuning in to him all the time while having lots of feelings come up. I have been taught that “relationships take work” and figured it was par for the course. Also, bonding is important to me. What this did was to take me totally away from my own creative work. I kind of “forgot” it in the heat of all those passions and all the needs to be met. (I loved the Lady G remark).

So, about the heels. . . I haven’t ever worn them for decades, since when I was a teen. He did, though. Yep, he was a cross-dresser. Trying to find his feminine side he said. I always told him that the “feminine” clothes, to me, represented the subjugation of women, not what it means to be a woman. Also, he needed to understand how wretchedly women are treated, how much damage is done by the culture. He never got either point. Never! I tried and tried to explain. I also began to resent it that he never, never, never, never, never understood one minute bit what male privilege was (did I say never?). I was supposed to educate him on this one, but he never understood and just went into how much he respected, even revered women, especially strong women whenever I pointed out anything about privilege. Of course, since he would never treat women poorly, it was a non-issue. (What had happened to me prior was a non-issue).

He fucked my mind, drained me like some kind of a vampire. He seemed to care and want to be supportive, but somehow it was all about him. How come my budget, my time, my creativity suffered in a relationship with him? When it came to anything I really cared about there were diversions, very subtle. He was good at seducing me to pay attention to him, to taking care of him and his needs, sexual or not. Somehow in the relationship ending I felt like I was left on the floor writhing in pain, and not ever sure why.

I’ve been back in a creative place in the last few months, so it shouldn’t matter, plus the pain is only just in the past couple of weeks. In the last couple of days I’ve been reading and your blog absolutely turned things around for me! For one thing, I’d somehow figured that some of his behavior was from being oppressed as a man who cross-dressed and I needed to be sensitive to him and he had been through in not being accepted. Really, he was so covertly narcissistic it was unimaginable. Such BS.

Your blog made the pain I was feeling vanish. Reading it is balm. I could see that I’d skipped the PIV but had the PIH/H (heart/head) as his friend. His response to my pain, my objections: mansplanations. No more!

I’m aware that now that I’m being creative again, I seem to be attractive to many men. I totally get what Lady G said. I’m not very interested in PIV, but rarely have been. I’m also not interested in PIH/H or being a muse or any crap like that. I still don’t quite get the level of pain I felt at this ending. It’s mysterious.

factcheckme - October 8, 2010

wow! thanks. try “its the trauma bonding talking” and see if that helps. thanks for posting.

32. kristina - October 8, 2010

Berryblade…I don’t care…I’m hungry for all of it, but I wouldn’t ask that of you!

33. Let'sGetReal - October 8, 2010

Thanks, factcheckme, the “trauma bonding talking” post spoke to this. Opening up to someone who takes advantage of you while soliciting your trust is an exploitive relationship, and that seems to be what happened. By definition, male privilege is always going to do this.

Right now, I just want to stay away from men as much as possible. It’s so draining to be around them.

34. mscitrus - October 8, 2010

“He was good at seducing me to pay attention to him, to taking care of him and his needs, sexual or not. Somehow in the relationship ending I felt like I was left on the floor writhing in pain, and not ever sure why.”

God, I totally understand this. This was my last relationship entirely. I still have trouble explaining how it happened-but I ended up trying to help him with all his nonsense. I still feel hurt by all the crap with him, but like you say reading blogs like FCM’s helps.

I’m glad you’re feeling better tho. ❤ *hugs*

35. Let'sGetReal - October 8, 2010

Thanks, mscitrus.

factcheckme - October 8, 2010

with only ONE exception, out of all the men i have ever dated, INCLUDING the one i am with now, i have had to take care of them at different times, financially. and of course in every other way too. they pretend they cant do even basic things for themselves, or you know, they ARENT pretending, they really cant because they never learned, because their moms did it all and thier dads did nothing, and then they had girlfriends to help them out every step along the way. they bring home the wrong thing from the grocery store, so you will just do all the shopping from then on, BECAUSE ITS EASIER. they pay all the bills late, so YOU get the harassing phone calls and have to remind him to do it…which means that even if he does eventually pay it, it wouldve just been easier for you to do it yourself, or at least you are expending just as much energy as he is to get the job done, when it was really only a one person task, and him being there hasnt helped you out AT ALL. you have to make lists and write shit down and explain them a million times and feld phone calls about it when you send him on an errand. again, NOT HELPFUL. and then they want fucking cookies and pats on the back for “helping” or doing their share, when really all they did was complicate everything, waste both of your time, and do it wrong.

its fucking infuriating. and i am starting to think its DELIBERATE. even if its not, this is an area where radfems might just decide its not fucking worth it, just to be nice to teh menz, and give them the benefit of the doubt. if they make your life harder, instead of easier, they are OUT. can you imagine what the state of het relationships would be, if this was the standard all women used? interestingly, it would also mean no PIV, for obvious reasons.

36. Undercover Punk - October 8, 2010

I was really having trouble with that Gaga thing, but here is it:

Lady Gaga tells Vanity Fair contributing editor Lisa Robinson that she tries to avoid having sex because she is afraid of depleting her creative energy—“I have this weird thing that if I sleep with someone they’re going to take my creativity from me through my vagina.”

http://www.vanityfair.com/online/daily/2010/08/lady-gaga-september-issue.html

37. sam - October 8, 2010

The first article about Lady Gaga I read contained the following quote:

“I don’t think a lot of female pop stars embrace womanhood in that domestic, American way,” she notes. “And me singing about gasoline and car and beers and bars is very American.” It’s very Springsteen American. “I lurrrrrve Springsteen,” she purrs. “Grew up listening to Springsteen. And it’s like that sort of by-the-boardwalk mentality. Girls either don’t know about it or they think no one can relate to it or they think it’s cooler to act like men and cheat on their boyfriends and yunno.” She flaps her hands. “They’re ‘I don’t want plastic surgery! Fuck plastic surgery! And fuck cooking you dinner! I’m gonna fucking order in!’ And I’m not like that – I used to make my boyfriend dinner in my stilettos, with my underwear on. And he used to be like, ‘Baby, you’re so sexy!’ And I’d be like. ‘Have some meatballs.'”

http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2009/jan/21/lady-gaga-interview-fame

I wrote her off, then got the hook to Paparazzi in my head so I put the album on hold at the library. The music is readily danceable but some of it reeks of as much desperation as the above quote. I trimmed the worst tracks off The Fame Monster to enjoy it in rotation.

Anti-feminist vapidity launched Gaga’s star in our misogynistic culture. However, I have hope this talented young women has it in her to grab her own star now that she can exercise more creative control. I’m looking forward to hearing the next album, but she could cut out the Bad Romance “Being a celebrity is like being a sex trafficking victim” and Twitter “Thank you for believing in me little monsters! I’m your hooker” rapesexy crap.

38. sonia - October 8, 2010

We should all propaganda that shit all over our hometowns at bus stops, that quote. Just give young girls a chance to think, from someone they’ll actually listen to because of her couture Dior lace face-hijab or whatever. Shit.

39. sonia - October 8, 2010

plus dude, this is irritating me now for some reason- the very fact that the only reason LG can get away with saying shit like that is because of the degree to which she propagates the beauty mandate. If you look like Andrea Dworkin and say that shit, it never makes it to the mainstream. So you get dolled up and put on your meat dress and go down to Vanity Fair and say that shit, and they print it and you get a little grief but you go tripping along home basically still in the good dudely graces and for what? you’ve already conformed to the whole shit anyway to get your point across. now all the remains is to figure out whether to wear the five or six inch black bondage heels to your show tonight.

just fuckin saying.

40. joy - October 8, 2010

“they pretend they cant do even basic things for themselves, or you know, they ARENT pretending, they really cant because they never learned, because their moms did it all and thier dads did nothing, and then they had girlfriends to help them out every step along the way.”

I had one partner, the one who got me into PIV (and who was actually “good at it”, for what little that is worth, although I still preferred the ‘foreplay’) and gave me HPV, who couldn’t fix soup. From a can.

Yet another, the schizoid (ableist?) domestic abuser, could not work a WASHING MACHINE. Not because his mom had always done it — his mother abandoned him when he was a child. Because he refused to learn whenever anyone tried to show him.
He seriously, I kid you not! would refuse to look at the washer, and would repeat, “No, no, no, no, no,” like a child. “I’m going to fuck it up.” Yeah, dickwad, because you refuse to learn how!
When I fucked up one of his sweaters, by accident, he beat me.
If I didn’t do his laundry, he would seriously (again! really!) just wear clothes until they literally rotted off of him.

“they pay all the bills late, so YOU get the harassing phone calls and have to remind him to do it…which means that even if he does eventually pay it, it wouldve just been easier for you to do it yourself, or at least you are expending just as much energy as he is to get the job done, when it was really only a one person task, and him being there hasnt helped you out AT ALL.”

Schizoid had a philosophy: we just wouldn’t pay the bills at all! Fuck those capitalist assholes! As a front for him spending all our money on booze. Which, you know. Isn’t capitalist or anything.

“you have to make lists and write shit down and explain them a million times and feld phone calls about it when you send him on an errand. again, NOT HELPFUL.”

Asshole would do this IN REVERSE to me — beat me if I brought home the wrong thing, but pitch a hissy and call me incompetent if I ever called him to check.

“and then they want fucking cookies and pats on the back for “helping” or doing their share, when really all they did was complicate everything, waste both of your time, and do it wrong.”

“Oh, come on! I did all those things you’re complaining I didn’t do, at least HALF the time! (Even though it was always wrong.)”

Or, my favorite, “Hey, I told you going into this that I don’t [x].”

Thanks, dudes. You know, you’re right, I should have listened. And then just dropkicked all of you.

41. joy - October 8, 2010

“you’ve already conformed to the whole shit anyway to get your point across. now all the remains is to figure out whether to wear the five or six inch black bondage heels to your show tonight.

just fuckin saying.”

I agree. It’s like, yeah, Gaga, great. You don’t bone dudes (that often? any more? right now? whatever).

And … ? Now what?

Also, in my above comment, I meant that Schizoid couldn’t do laundry because he’d refused to learn how. Not that, as it looks, that he couldn’t because his mother left. Or that his mother left because he couldn’t do laundry. Or something.

42. Let'sGetReal - October 8, 2010

He wanted very detailed explicit instructions about how to do very simple things around the house. The level of detail he wanted would take way longer than doing the job itself. I was working about 50-65 hrs per week and he wasn’t working at all. He broke some things, but never replaced them, even when asked. He wasn’t good at housework, nor was he good at fixing things around the house, though I’ good at both, so I guess that worked for him. How did I get hooked into such bullshit. It really had to do with thinking I was in love with him. It turns out that wasn’t love, it was the “trauma bonding talking” thing.

I decided that I’m off men forever. Well, unless I can find one like in that song “Talking Want Ad” that Janet Smith wrote and sang during Malvina Reynolds concerts. Some of the words are

I’m lookin’ for a man to wash my clothes,
Iron my shirts, and blow my nose,
Sweep the floor and wax the kitchen
While I sit playin’ the guitar and bitchin’
Mud all over my boots
Feet up on the table
Just doin’ my thing

I’m looking for a guy who’ll cook my meals
Wash my dishes and take the peels off
my bananas with a grin
And ask me how my workday’s been
Terrible,
As always
Playin guitar is such a struggle
[one more verse here]
So if you feel you’d like to apply
Just send a photo, or come on by
And you can shine my shoes today
And if you’re lucky I’ll let you stay
And cook supper
And after you finish the dishes
I might even let you listen to me play the guitar.

There’s a verse in there about doing all this stuff so that she feels good in the morning, that’s when she makes her best music. Damn, I’d go for someone who revered me for my creative endeavors, not just some screwed up pedestal-now-let’s-do-PIV bullshit.

Well, I heard this song decades ago and it’s still in my head, so why did I put up with that BS? No more!

Too bad these good old songs of earlier feminists are out of print/publication. Just goes to show what the world thinks of the earlier feminists, replaced by the fun fems, I guess!

Really, I’m off men for good, and that’s such a relief.

43. Let'sGetReal - October 8, 2010

P.S. I did kick him out of the house after a few months of this crap, but kept on with the relationship.

44. joy - October 8, 2010

Let’sGetReal, your story sounds really familiar.

And that’s a great song! I play banjo, and I’ll try to figure out an arrangement for it so I can sing it.

Nobody’s gonna throw money in my hat when I do, but at least it will be out there.

45. MAD - October 8, 2010

FCM, please keep on going on. This is a good thing to witness.

46. Let'sGetReal - October 8, 2010

Ok, joy, I got some more info for you. The name of the album is “Virgo Rising: The Once and Future Woman.” This has some great songs on it. Here’s a link to a discussion/interview of this album. http://www.onlinefolkfestival.com/blog/2008/08/05/virgo-rising/ It has links to a bunch of women who made the album, and one of them might have some of the music they can send you. Mollie Gregory is the one who produced it. There’s also another link with Malvina Reynolds singing “No Hole In My Head” accompanied by Pete Seeger looking very young. It’s a great song, too.

Lyrics start: Everybody thinks my head’s full of nothing, wants to put his special stuff in. . . You can hear it here

http://schmaltzfactory.blogspot.com/ you have to scroll down or page search Virgo Rising to find the tune.

I think “No Hole in My Head” is fitting here, no PIH, either. . .

factcheckme - October 8, 2010

thanks MAD. i was pretty fed up when i wrote this. i mean really. the fun-fems pretend to care about things like “ableism” but its all an act isnt it? at least, insofar as “ableism” might conflict with their PIV/fuckability agenda, and i think when it comes tp high heels there clearly is a conflict, they will pick PIV/fuckability every fucking time. theres a pretty big conflict between classism and PIV/fuckability too, in that it takes MONEY to spend your way to sexxay-empowerment via fashion and an out-there accessible lifestyle. but they will choose to maintain their PIV/fuckability agenda every fucking time, even when other women cant keep up because they are POOR. or, you know, not american, or actually have real fucking problems, like being traumatized by rape and they dont WANT to be accessible to men, or have PIV at all.

what a bunch of shit.

47. yesindeed - October 9, 2010

Has anyone here seen the documentary “Century of the Self”? I saw it cited on Rage Against the Man-chine and then found it on google video. (It’s four hours, so pace yourself.) It looks at how government and big business have used psychology (particularly, Freudian ideas of the individual as a bundle of unconscious irrational desires) as a mean of social control.

One of the first examples shown is how corporations sold cigarettes to women in the 20s by marketing them as a form of liberation – “torches of freedom.” Sound familiar?

For the first half of the century, the ideas of psychoanalysis were used to promote conformity, turning the dangerous masses’ into docile consumers. Then, in the 60s and 70s, another idea began to take hold – these unconscious desires should be set free instead of being ‘repressed.’ The original proponent of this idea was an enemy of Freud’s who promoted sexual activity as the key to liberation. This episode of the documentary opens with his daughter discrediting Anna Freud on the basis of being a “virgin” and “opposed to sexuality.” Sound familiar?

After the new Left was ‘outgunned’ and ultimately fell apart in the late 60s/early 70s, there was a turn inward, and the idea that we could navel gaze our way OUT of social conditioning and find ‘autonomous power’ was born. One of the psychoanalytic institutes of the time decided to hold a “confrontation group” between black and white radicals so they could “transcend” racist socialization. (See where this is going?)

Allow me to quote the documentary:

“The black radicals saw it as an insidious attempt to destroy their power. By trying to turn them into ‘liberated individuals’, the [groups] were removing the one thing that gave them power and confidence in their struggle against racism, their collective identity as blacks.”

I literally had to pause and rewatch this part several times to let it sink in.

One former radical who had been converted by this type of therapy stated that he was no longer “moved by injustice.” The basic result? Phony liberation that takes place within the “self,” leaving the existing oppressive society unchanged and state and corporate power unchallenged.

Sex-positive fun feminism is a natural outgrowth of this. Of course the heels will win out every time!

48. yesindeed - October 9, 2010

Oh, and please, no questioning any of this. If the fun fems and queers don’t see their values (ie, their fuckability-promoting consumerist non-choices) reflected back to them at all times, then they’re being erased!

factcheckme - October 9, 2010

re lady gaga, i am thinking about all your comments. what i am mulling over at the moment, and have been for some time, is that theres a difference between being “fuckable” and actually having PIV. there are women, and always have been, who arent acheiving “fuckability” mandates, but are most definitely having PIV. dworkin mentions haggard-looking street prostitutes doing the “elephants share of the fucking” and she is right. absolutely right. “beauty” being attached in any way to fucking is some kind of a myth that seems to justify mens impulse to rape (or own) beautiful women. but they will fuck ugly women too. they will fuck just about anything, and anyone. raping and having PIV with beautiful women is only whats on the surface. the fact that they fuck ugly women too is kind of kept on the down-low. some men even allegedly feel “shame” about this. theres an axe “mens body wash” commercial that sells a concoction that will even wash away the shame of an “embarrassing” hookup. i shit you not. i will try to locate a video later.

and “beautiful” women can have PIV or not have it too. acutally they might be in a better position to NOT have it than other women are, BECAUSE they are so fuckable. which again exposes how PIV and beauty really have nothing to do with one another. lady gaga i guess being a prime example of that.

but as far as LG goes…is it important that shes being some kind of an anti-PIV role model for other women? or…is it revolutionary, in itself, that shes not having PIV in her private life, and she has reasons for that? i guess having both would be ideal. but i kind of think that ANY woman who is deliberately eschewing PIV has got it going on. if she needs to wear bondage gear for her next show…well at least she wont be suffering from a yeast infection or, you know, morning sickness, while shes doing it. a womans got to work.

49. kurukurushoujo - October 9, 2010

and “beautiful” women can have PIV or not have it too. acutally they might be in a better position to NOT have it than other women are, BECAUSE they are so fuckable. which again exposes how PIV and beauty really have nothing to do with one another. lady gaga i guess being a prime example of that.

I think you are completely right. Ugly women (and you know how easily women can become ugly) basically have to fuck to remind themselves and the world that they are actually worth anything. “Beautiful” women are just allowed to exist by virtue of their desirability (which doesn’t mean that them becoming willful virgins would be looked upon kindly but the reactions to it would probably be different). Making sure that women are in a constant state of needing approval from men pretty much guarantees that they will learn to want PIV so that male demands are always met. I can’t say that it surprises me that women making the decision to separate from men for extremely rational reasons (personal safety and happiness or political agitation) always invokes a certain amount of hysteria. Separatists for the most part so obviously don’t care about men that you have to be paranoid to see any danger in separatism whatsoever. The extent to which men really care about women can be easily deduced by the amount of irrationality and anger mentioning separatism creates.

50. Sargassosea - October 9, 2010

“but i kind of think that ANY woman who is deliberately eschewing PIV has got it going on.”

Right, because it sure isn’t the easiest thing to do even *just* in personal life. But start getting political about it and watch the sticks and stones come out.

I’ll admit to having some hope for the Lady we call Gaga – she’s a definite improvement on the Madonna model, anyway.

51. kurukurushoujo - October 9, 2010

I just realized that I was generalizing too much. Even “beautiful” women are not allowed to exist on their own terms since they are still considered public property (like every woman to certain amounts of extent). But conforming to society’s demands will always give you benefits (e.g. in the workplace).

(I should probably learn to think about topics such as this longer so that I will not turn into a serial spammer, lol.)

52. sonia - October 9, 2010

@FCM, I think the beauty mandate is more normative than PIV. there are, like, extenuating circumstances where women can claim they don’t want, need, or can’t handle the dick. However, there’s no excuse, including cancer, or disability, for not being fuckable.

what u think?

53. sonia - October 9, 2010

I meant, looking fuckable.

factcheckme - October 9, 2010

The whole fuckability thing seems more and more bizarre, the more i think about it. I mean, the thing about looking fuckable, and fuckability mandates, is that people can tell from a distance the degree to which you buy into the big p. And they assume youre having piv, even if you aren’t. Beauty might be even more normative than piv, but it has everything to do with piv, because its a marker of piv. Or its assumed to be. That’s the shit we’ve been swallowing this whole time, as a cover for men’s propensity to rape women, no matter what the women look like. It discredits unattractive rape victims and mistresses and prostitutes, is what it does.

54. rhondda - October 9, 2010

Yeah, I get this. Even if you are not the beauty,and more on the homely side as I have been told, one is supposed to be grateful that a man will fuck you. That is the insidiousness of it all. GRATEFUL! Then you look at them and wonder just what masculinity is as few of them meet any ideal.

55. Let'sGetReal - October 9, 2010

From childhood on, I never understood about people reacting to me based on how I looked. I think it was massively confusing. When I was a teen I dressed so I was attractive, but not overtly sexy. I did wear high heels for a brief time, perhaps 4-5 years. I only wore them for special events on weekends, though. As a professional woman some years later I wore pumps which had thick short heels. Even those were uncomfortable. Still, being attractive people now responded more to how I looked and dressed than ever. It was very confusing. I didn’t dress this way so they’d respond in a particular way, especially a sexual response, but rather so I didn’t look dorky. It was the way the culture told me to dress pretty much. I think that from childhood on I picked up these vibes and people seemed very strange in some fundamental way. They weren’t relating to me, to what I did, felt, or (especially) what I thought. There was a basic confusion and it’s still there. I think this confusion has been massive, bigger than I thought.

I also felt I never really understood sex. With this breakup then reading this stuff about PIV, etc. I finally do understand why it was so confusing. It’s hugely about exploitation. That feels bad to understand in personal ways, but at least it’s less confusing.

It is obscene that some people buy high heel baby shoes for girl infants. Here’s one such site. I read about it a while back, and this thread reminds me of it. http://www.heelarious.com/index.php Younger and younger children get sexualized. When I think about how confusing it was for me, I cannot imagine how it must be now. Though we may have had frilly dresses, at least they were kid clothes, not mimics of sexy adult clothes.

56. sonia - October 10, 2010

“it has everything to do with piv, because its a marker of piv. Or its assumed to be”

yeah- I think that this is the whole point of normative aesthetic fuckability. To indoctrinate young women. So even women who aren’t having PIV, like Lady Gaga and awesome single career women who care more about their bank accounts than any man (raises hand) and mtf transsexuals, it’s like- just LOOK like someone could bone you, ladies, that’s all we ask. Lady Gaga can say whatever awesome shit she wants but as long as little girls look at her and conform to the beauty mandate, they’ll turn out non-threatening as well. and yeah, I’m totally guilty of this. I do try to set an ass-kicking example with my behavior and I do know the little girls in my life know that I whup ass on numerous levels, but I also have guilt around the closet full of pencil skirts and heels. I dunno. boo hoo, I guess.

57. sonia - October 10, 2010

but it is bizarre. like you said further up, or someone said- aesthetic fuckability really has nothing to do with PIV. someone should figure that one out but it kind of makes my head spin.

factcheckme - October 10, 2010

i think that might be the subject of my next post actually. how fuckability-mandates really have nothing to do with PIV, which is completely obvious when one acknowledges how un-fuckable you can become, and how quickly, when you are FUCKED TOO MUCH. ie, haggard-looking street prostitutes, who are doing “the elephants share of the fucking” as dworkin pointed out. and who men are still fucking, no matter how bad they look, and who by definition HAVE to fuck more men in a day or an HOUR than some hottie fuckable call-girl has to fuck in a week, because the unfuckable prostitutes “fucks” are worth less, BECAUSE they are less-fuckable, BECAUSE they fuck more. or women who have had “too many children.” who got that way HOW? DUH.

seriously, there is a head-spinningness to it, which means theres something there that needs to be talked about. hopefully i will come up with something. or you know, WE will, together. which is often how things happen around here. so, thanks!

factcheckme - October 10, 2010

AAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA!!!111!!1 omg. the insane clown posse have just come out as being evangelical christians. this is too fucking much. time to put on my tinfoil hat, because i think i am just WAAAY too far inside old hugo’s head for my own good. and…”i see dead people” too.

http://an-uncommon-scold.newsvine.com/_news/2010/10/10/5265872-insane-clown-posse-claim-to-be-evangelical-christians

in case anyone missed it, i started referring to hugo and his band of merry asshats as the “insane clown posse” a few weeks ago. i even posted a couple of videos, which noone could watch because they were so awful. heh. i said the skinny one was hugo.

https://factcheckme.wordpress.com/2010/08/27/on-credibility/#comment-4911

factcheckme - October 10, 2010

from the article:

The news shook the juggalo community to its core. While some fans claimed they’d actually had an inkling, having deciphered some of the hidden messages in several songs, others said they felt deeply betrayed and outraged: they’d been innocently enjoying all those songs about chopping people up and shooting women, and it was Christian rock?

WHAA? sex-pozzie misogynist christians? impossible.

factcheckme - October 10, 2010

heres the video…ron jeremy makes a cameo. now thats good sex-pozzie christianity.

58. sonia - October 10, 2010

as if there wasn’t enough to laugh about in the ICP videos already. have you seen the ad for the 09 Gathering of the Juggalos-the one they parodied on snl? that shit makes my stomach muscles hurt. I can’t remember if you posted it or 92 did.

factcheckme - October 10, 2010

no, it wasnt me. drop a link if you want.

59. sonia - October 10, 2010

I just watched the video..nevermind. forget everything I said at UP’s place yesterday. I hate white people too.😉

60. sonia - October 10, 2010

for all you “hongry-asses” out there.

factcheckme - October 10, 2010

heres an SNL spoof of the ICP song “miracles” where they get their creationism on…this is after they “came out” i guess. heh. i dont even know why i am posting these here, they are completely unwatchable. but…its quiet here today.

factcheckme - October 10, 2010

heres the real ICP (this is the first one i posted over on the “on credibility” thread) singing a remake of “lets go all the way.” hugo and his “pro-feminist” sex-pozzie merry poon hounds’ theme song. hugo is the skinny one.

61. joy - October 10, 2010

“t’s like- just LOOK like someone could bone you, ladies, that’s all we ask.”

Brilliantly put. Seriously.

“as long as little girls look at her and conform to the beauty mandate, they’ll turn out non-threatening as well.”

I’ve honestly always kind of been mad when women who I know kick ass, get all femmy and bow to the P in any way. It’s irrational, and unfair, and whatever, and don’t take it badly Sonia! heh. I always get over it, unless they’re totally into their own oppression (which nobody here is).

I’m pretty (I guess). In a kind of “exotic” way (gag me with the white Eurocentricity, dudes). My ancestry is mostly French, I have dark hair and olive skin with blueish eyes, and men are always asking if I’m part Asian. (They looove the stereotype of submissive, girly Asian women, of course.)

It’s never got me shit. I was chubby as a little kid, and poor, and wore weird clothes, and other than the chubby part (yay socialized eating disorder!), the badassness has always outridden the pretty part to Teh Doods. It’s like they can tell, by looking at me, that I don’t do PIV. That I will bite their fucking dicks off if I get the chance.

But they want me to do PIV, of course. I get catcalls, eyed up and down, patronized, called sweetheart, barked at, even asked by random casual acquaintances why I don’t ‘show more skin.’ I would even if I was very homely. I just get it more often and (as if this was a distinction) more inappropriately, ie from my bosses when I worked and my audiences when I perform and my colleagues and my mentors and my friends.

It’s always with the weird implication (spoken aloud by one of my former partners), “You would be so pretty if you tried.”
Implicit rider: “So we could feel less threatened when we look at you and rub our boners.”

You gotta go to work, though, I know. Not even I run around in overalls or whatever. Because I don’t need to physically show up somewhere in society in order to work, I can get away with wearing what I want.

My fucking-shit-up attire is usually a skirt (they’re comfy, sometimes, and you never have to worry about splitting a seam as you vault over fences or run from cops/dudes/whatever) and, say, giant well-worn cowboy boots that have tromped on many a foot at concerts and make a really satisfying thud when I walk. Nut-stomping boots, and not in an S&M way either.
And, of course, my hairy legs stick out between the skirt (usually to my knee or lower) and the boots.

And I look mean, or at least makeupless and confident, both things which men interpret as threatening, and I sometimes smell like armpit because I don’t shave my pits or wear perfume. Armpit smell (even just salty hippie pit smell, not terrible reeking BO) is like dude repellent, it’s awesome.

I mean, I ain’t perfect either. Women have the choice of among shit sandwiches, or they can starve, so I don’t blame anyone for eating a little shit.
I still always wonder, though: I mean, being dude-repellent is fun. Why don’t more women try it?

62. Butterflywings - October 10, 2010

@UndercoverPunk – sorry, I usually agree with you, but the comment that Lady Gaga wore high heels so can’t be ‘truly’ disabled is a stupid comment. Mental illness or learning disabilities, for example, have nothing to do with the ability or not to wear high heels, but profoundly affects one’s life.
I don’t think you have the slightest conception of disability, because you are assuming all disability is to do with mobility and *that* is ableist. That you go on to say, correctly, that all the various types of disability are vastly different, is amusing precisely because it makes a nonsense of statements like ‘high heels are ableist’ and ‘someone who wears high heels isn’t truly disabled’.
I am not for a second defending high heels, which are dumbass – but FCM, they *are* slightly different from elective surgery etc., precisely because you *can* take them off. Not all heels are so difficult to walk in as you make out, either.

63. joy - October 10, 2010

Today’s comment brought to you by marihuana.

“and other than the chubby part (yay socialized eating disorder!),”

should have after it: has never changed. I’m scrawnier now, but I’m still poor and I dress funny.

And:

“I would even if I was very homely.”

should read, “I would get this treatment even if I was very homely.”

The ultimate point is: we are all hounded mercilessly to look fuckable, but it doesn’t matter if you don’t. As long as you have nothing to lose by having men avoid you (or harass you if they don’t).

And a lot of women have a lot to lose. I know that.

As far as ICP? Other than in reference to Hugo (LOL)? I don’t even … fuck those guys. They’re a powerful stench on the musical map.

factcheckme - October 10, 2010

ive only ever known one ICP fan, and he was a complete dumbass who just needed the loudest most idioticly offensive soundtrack in the background at all times, so neither of us could think. in the foreground of course was the fucking insane racket from his video games and his dumbass friends giggling like beavis and butthead.

but for some unknown reason, the hugo reference has given me the lulz, and i cant stop. its fucking hilarious. these comments brought to you by a lazy weekend in my pajamas watching the golden girls and buffy marathons. now thats good syndication. and im sick 😦

factcheckme - October 10, 2010

but FCM, they *are* slightly different from elective surgery etc., precisely because you *can* take them off. Not all heels are so difficult to walk in as you make out, either.

walking in them without falling and breaking your ass, is only one problem with heels. the other is that its very common that you will eventually need surgery, to correct the damage. google “hammertoes” for example. this could be avoided, if you just didnt wear them. i guess i couldve included just flat out uncomfortable shoes too, especially pointy ones, or ones with no support. but the fact remains that you are doing this to yourself, and then risking life-threatening surgical complications that could be avoided. in that way, its EXACTLY like elective surgery. and CHOOSING to disable yourself is ableist. the transabled are ableist. they CHOOSE to get around in fucking wheelchairs, when they are perfectly ambulatory. also completely offensive! and…quite a lot like transsexualism actually, in choosing to join the ranks of a minority group, when you dont have to. but noone wants to talk about that.

also, how is not addressing “other” non-mobility type disabilities in a post specifically about mobility-related ones, “abliest?” this is where i get very happy that i dont care about being ableist, in the first place. i never said that mobility was the only disability out there. i guess i couldve said that fun-fems who wear high heels are also ableist becuase they are being fucking dumb, when there are learning disabled people out there who are “dumb” for reals, and they cant help it. but THAT wouldve been abelist.

and…are you saying that elective surgery isnt ableist? really, what was your point? i mustve missed it?

factcheckme - October 10, 2010

and, ooh! someone commented on the actual post. heh.

64. thebewilderness - October 10, 2010

“t’s like- just LOOK like someone could bone you, ladies, that’s all we ask.”

That way when they rape you or wrestle you down and try to stick their dick in you or scream at you on the street they can say you “were asking for it” because of the way you were dressed.

I can’t figure out this argument that if you address one specific problem you have somehow magically erased all others. Talking about one thing does not disappear the rest of the world. It just doesn’t.

factcheckme - October 10, 2010

I don’t get it either bewilderness. But I think I’m starting to. I think its deliberate, and meant to overwhelm feminist discussions so that they just don’t happen, at all. People insisting that every discussion of every issue has to be inclusive of everything is an impossible demand. And accusations of being exclusive always follow, and are intended to hurt, and to silence.

65. SheilaG - October 10, 2010

Feminism gets derailed all the time, and the tactics are deliberate. Women get derailed and interrupted all the time too. Just take it one subject at a time, and come up with a strategy for ending rape, for ending oppressive clothing…

To stay on one topic, and to trace what the cause and effect is is valuable and valid. Somehow that’s not good enough for fake feminists etc.

There are two confusing lines of thought here. For me, it is confusing that women would wear clothing that would expose them to rape. But it is also an outrage that men rape at all.

Ideally, men should get their heads chopped off for raping women (you choose which head🙂, but I get fed up with women fueling the fashion industry, and then ending up in poverty buying all that stuff. We could boycotte all fashionable clothing, and like token something or other, (torturers seems too strong a word), we have women marketing this garbage all over the place… Mary Kay, clothing lines, candles… the junk women sell is endless… the in home multi-level fantasy businesses that are such rip offs.

The entire clothing industry, foot wear industry is designed to keep women poor, compliant, and male pleasing. That women can’t collectively deal with this, and get the economic attrocity of it all is beyond me. It really is.

Hope this isn’t a derail, but honestly, as a lesbian feminist, and hater of this stupid fashion stuff, I am at my wit’s end.

The main fantasy of course is that women are encouraged to waste money, because after all, the right man is going to come along to pay all the bills. I’m convinced that almost ALL straight women think this, and every now and then, Mr. Right does come along, and they give him all the economic power. They just drop everything and the man takes over. I’m not kidding, I’ve seen this happen again and again. All that independence and money management skill that women displayed before they married Mr. Man goes right out the window.

Until this fantasy ends, Mary Kay will continue to crank out the cancer causing make up, lady ga ga heels will be all the rage, women’s heavily made up faces will be everywhere. Just looking at all this makes me ill.

factcheckme - October 11, 2010

It’s absolutely the case that women spending endless and increasing amounts of money on clothing and accessories makes them more vulnerable to men financially, and therefore more vulnerable to dangerous male sexuality. Including rape, but also just standard run of the mill placing women in harms way by sticking your dicks into them PIV. Absolutely.

But the fun fems dont care about any of that. This article was actually pointing out that the heels are problematic under their own rhetoric too, but they don’t care about even the trite bullshit they pretend to care about! If it gets in the way of their piv-positive agenda, they’ll throw anything and anyone under the bus. Including all the isms that make up their entire “movement” like ableism and classism too. All they fucking care about is piv. It’s so obvious.

66. thebewilderness - October 11, 2010

“It’s absolutely the case that women spending endless and increasing amounts of money on clothing and accessories makes them more vulnerable to men financially…”

It is also absolutely the case that deviating from the dress code in this society makes us more vulnerable to men financially.

I realize that “Working Girl” was supposed to be a romantic romp, but in reality it was also about how men enforce sumptuary rules to this very day.
Those are the laws that described what class of people were allowed to wear what items of clothing so that higher class people would not accidentally treat a lower class person like a peer.

factcheckme - October 11, 2010

It is also absolutely the case that deviating from the dress code in this society makes us more vulnerable to men financially.

yes. its true. see the “babymaker in a rape culture” for more on that. it seems to me that the fuckability mandates serve to, among other things, increase your chances of becoming the property of (ie. “landing”) one man. instead of being the property of all men. which is, in many ways, the safer and more secure position isnt it? i mean, consider the haggard-looking “unfuckable” street walking prostitute. being the property of all men is probably most womens worst fucking nightmare, and with good reason. and i havent read “right wing women” yet, but this seems to be dworkins observation of right-wing womens tactics too. that they adhere to the conservative ideologies, including religiosity and marriage, so that they “legitimately” belong to one man, instead of all men, like they apparently believe liberal women do. women are trying to survive, and they are trying to play by the rules so they dont get fucking raped. ironically, appearing fuckable seems to stave of rape better than appearing unfuckable, in some pretty important ways.

BUT. theres such a thing as going overboard. and unless you really, really believe that you are going to land some seriously monied type who wont stand for anything less than the MOST plastic women with the BEST jewelry…i think most of us could spend less on fashion, and fuckability mandates. the point has been made here before that some of the highest-paid professions for women (doctors and lawyers for example) dont encourage or even allow flashy female accessories and sky-high stilettos. and most of the time…well you only really need 5 of everything to get you through the week. and most women have literally DOZENS of pairs of shoes for starters. we make less, and we spend more. see “why am i always so tired and broke?” for more on that.

67. sonia - October 11, 2010

@joy- no, it’s totally cool. I’m not dolled out 100% of the time anyway- just for work. The main reason I do it at all is because my attitude is so masculine that dudes at work need heels to deal with it, I’m aware of it, and money is #1 in my life. It ain’t right, though. But we all end up eating dude shit in some arena, and that’s mine.🙂

68. sonia - October 11, 2010

p.s. that asian submission fetish from random dudes would drive me NUTS. like, what’s up- did you miss your flight to Bangkok, motherfucker? fuck OFF.

69. joy - October 11, 2010

“@joy- no, it’s totally cool. I’m not dolled out 100% of the time anyway- just for work. The main reason I do it at all is because my attitude is so masculine that dudes at work need heels to deal with it, I’m aware of it, and money is #1 in my life. It ain’t right, though. But we all end up eating dude shit in some arena, and that’s mine. ”

Haha, yeah, definitely. And that’s way cool. I didn’t mean you personally: you just mentioned being a role model, and wondered how young women felt, etc. While I can’t speak for all of them (us?) I thought I’d give an example — it’s cool if a kick-ass lady -has- to counter her badassness with heels etc., but I wish they didn’t have to.

My anger is directed at dudes and the system. Just, to a lesser degree of what Sheila said: I kind of wish more women would get on board the “balls-out badass” wagon and see what the dudes have to say about that.

They might rape us … well, yeah, they already do.
They might beat us … well, yeah …
and on and on and on.

As a person who has been both “pretty” (to a degree — in the hipster sense, not the plasticified sense) and “badass,” I can say for certain that there is little difference in the way I was treated. Just this way, I feel better about myself as a human being, I am more authentic, and it allows me to be “badder ass” (if you will).

Again, not directed exactly at you, Sonia, just at women in general. “Come on, join me on the dark side! It’s way better over here. You won’t miss anything, I promise.”

And yeah, the Asian thing is … horrific. When I was performing, I averaged one weird comment per week. Since I played one or two shows a week … it was like once a show. And sometimes if I was in a bar, too.

Better yet, dudes also have a French fetish, so if I laughed and said, no, douchebag, I’m French, they’d rub their boners in an entirely different way. “Is that why you don’t shave your pits?! Sexxxay …”

So now, if it comes up, I settle for laughing at them and saying nothing. I wonder sometime if I should call them out on their racism and tell them to eat dicks, but just laughing in their faces generally suffices.

70. thebewilderness - October 11, 2010

I think it is Stockholm syndromish.
From childhood we are conditioned to think that all girls_____________ fill in the blank.
Criticism and ostracism is the price of rebellion. I guess in some cases parents start considering sex change operations these days if children do not conform.
Our seeking behavior is directed to shopping for adornments instead of any of the more productive directions that are possible.
No big surprise if a lot of women learn to enjoy spending their competitive energy as well as their seeking energy on personal adornment.
Let’s face it. If you can learn to enjoy PIV you can learn to enjoy wasting money on body maintenance and decoration. You get the same enormous load of disapproval no matter what you do.

I like to play dress up as much as the next kid. It becomes a chore when you have to do it every day.
Leave it to the stinkin’ patriarchy to make it mandatory and take the fun out of it.

I think I have bumbled way off topic now. Sorry.

71. SheilaG - October 11, 2010

Good point FCM about doctors, lawyers etc. Women in those professions do not have to wear all that ridiculous stuff. In fact, I usually can tell an attorney or a doctor immediately, because she actually looks real. Finance is similar. Just stick with conservative well cut, crisp–five of each, and you’re done.

The amount of money saved each year is astronomical. It’s how I afforded a downpayment on a house, and funding a retirement plan with 25% of gross income… not 10%, but 25% or more. So not only are straight women conned into spending unheard amounts of money on make-up, clothing, jewelry, but they are completely unaware that they are saving pennies, when they should be saving dollars.

Straight women friends are often surprised at my behavior… they are dying to go to some store or estate sale… so I’ll go along. I don’t like shopping, but sometimes friends just get so excited. I have no desire to buy anything at all. And this perplexes them. My income is decent, but I know I can’t afford this stuff. It will destroy a long term plan. To not buy can shock women whose very identity is built on looks and things.

The economic implictions of women waking up to the theft of their resources by the hideous fashion industry would fund a real revolution. Women could simply stop shopping! The economy would shut down. It would be a revelation.

What is painful is seeing women from working class backgrounds who are smart, and hardworking, clever at business, and yet, they still waste money on make-up they can’t afford. And they aren’t even married to men or male pleasing necessarily, they just fear a face with no mask on it.

The income doesn’t equate the artificiality, because again, women in the professions by and large don’t dress like this.

To see the income gap, and to see the shopping is painful. It makes me know that that woman is going to be stuck in an apartment for life. That’s how serious this stuff is economically over a 20-25 year period of time.

factcheckme - October 11, 2010

just wanted to add that the doctor/lawyer stuff is mostly for the young uns here, who still have “potential.” heh. the older folks here have already made those beds, and are now laying in them. the fact of the matter is, that the less you make, the more you spend on being fuckable, and the more important it is that you land a man. at the very least, we all have to be fuckable enough to get hired in whatever field we find ourselves in. and then be pleasing to your male bosses and male customers, clients etc, when we all know that almost all men watch fucking porn. so we know what they generally find “pleasing” when it comes to women. and its fucking horrifying. it really is.

most women need help, and we arent sticking together and building households of single straight women for the most part, even when it would be in our (and our mothers) best interest to do so. the absolutely hateful language aimed at women who do try to take care of themselves and each other, in the absence of men and dangerous male sexuality (spinster, hag, dyke, crazy cat lady etc) is enough to make us not want to do it. fear of this kind of naming kept me from considering this kind of life. it seems pretty clear to me now that fear of this kind of hateful stigma and naming is what made my mother throw me out of the house as soon as i turned 18, and made her serially date assholes ever since, determined to find someone to marry. and of course, she eventually found one. instead of providing a safe place for my sister and myself, and herself to grow old in, together.

and she fucking knew better too. when she left my dad, he told her that he hoped we all died. once he no longer had access to her cunt, he wished her, and his three kids all dead. and the fear of NAMING, and the fear of BEING a spinster, and her daughters being spinsters, made her ingore everything she knew about men, and partnering with men, and depending on them for anything. and it made her ignore everything she knew about dangerous male sexuality too. when she ended up with three kids she didnt even want, and when cutting off an abusive partner made him wish her DEAD. duh.

factcheckme - October 11, 2010

regarding recreational shopping…yes. the world looks very different when you are only buying what you need. it really does. and i have been fucking poor my entire adult life. i never made more than 10k a year until i got my first real job in my thirties. and even with almost no income, you still recreationally shop, even if its just garage sales and goodwill. i had always, ALWAYS bought into that, ever since i was a teenager, and the girls started socializing by “going shopping.”

it makes a HUGE difference when you start making lists. as ridiculous as it sounds, i learned this from a relatively wealthy woman i met, and it works. only buy things that you really need, that will use all the time, and that will make your life better or easier in some way. if you already have 6 of something, a 7th wont really fit that bill. its called “diminishing returns” and its kind of where a consumerist lifestyle ends up. you spend X for one, and its worth it. but the more you have, the less each one is really worth to you, but you are still paying full price. its a fucking trap, is what it is.

72. joy - October 11, 2010

“most women need help, and we arent sticking together and building households of single straight women for the most part, even when it would be in our (and our mothers) best interest to do so”

Agreed! Even the ‘women’s only’ houses I’ve lived in have been … women who were actively involved with partners and/or dating around, women who would move out to be with their partners, women who would side with their partners over other women, even stab other women in the back on behalf of their partners.

Again, these are the supposedly forward-thinking, punk rock, “third wave” type of people who don’t watch TV, are activists, etc.

And my mother is the same way, she keeps getting excited about me forming a “permanent, steady relationship,” rather than focusing on how we can help each other. All the competition among women, even and especially between mothers and daughters, is probably the saddest and most confusing thing I can think of.

“only buy things that you really need, that will use all the time, and that will make your life better or easier in some way. if you already have 6 of something, a 7th wont really fit that bill.”

It’s so true. I never really got into shopping the way the mainstream does it, because I was dedicated to “not being like a girl” (ages 7-17), against capitalism/consumerism (ages 19-present), and poor (since birth). Now it just seems extremely vacant and pointless. If I need something, I go to a secondhand store. I was in a “brand-new stuff” store today for the first time in months, and it struck me as a horrible waste of time.

But probably because of the deprivation of my childhood (I got new, meaning different, things once every six months, and only maybe 5 things – say, 2 shirts, a sweater, 2 pairs of pants – at a time; the kids at school always called me ‘Hand Me Down’), and then lost all of my possessions on two different occasions (once when my mother’s house got sold at sheriff’s sale and everything went into the dumpster, once when my ex-partner burned or took all my shit), I got into a bad habit. Like FCM says, recreational secondhand shopping.

Clothing, for me, is one of those things that I do to feel less shitty, and because until last year, what I spent on clothing my ex would have stolen from me anyway. It’s all vintage, from thrift stores and such, so I can avoid either wearing something revealing or getting targeted for being “mannish” (people, including hipsters, usually just think I’m weird), but there’s like 100 pieces in my collection.
That, to me, is quite large — Although I understand it’s less than a third, even less than a quarter, of what a lot of women have.
And most women don’t have a price cap of $30, usually $10, per item like I do either. I’ve spent maybe $3000 on the past two years, some women spend that PER MONTH.

I dig my 1800s petticoat, 1960s marching band dress, and all the other weird items I’ve accumulated (and wear). But it’s ridiculous shit. No duplicates (I only have one 1800s petticoat, for example), but it’s still ridiculous and I could still get by on half or less.

My marching band dress be damned: Reducing one’s needs, and thus purchases and consumption, down to the basics (and then, to go a step further, to see if you can buy those things secondhand) is one of the first steps towards liberation, from men or consumerism or capitalism.

Funny how those three things tend to go together, too.

73. joy - October 11, 2010

Footnote to my comment: I’ve been traveling for a month and a half, and my duffel bag contains basically two pairs of (sensible, ass-kicking) shoes, two cardigans, two tee shirts, two skirts, a pair of jeans, a flannel button-down, and some socks and underwear.

I have with me, and have always only had, one cup, one bowl, and two spoons. Other than a stuffed toy I use as a pillow and some books (most about radical feminism, one about horseback riding), and my phone, I have few other possessions.

It’s a big wake-up call about what one really “needs.”

factcheckme - October 11, 2010

re competition…when i first went away to college and came back for a visit, my mom had some douchebag ready to move into her house. my brother and sister couldnt stand him. and he was a fine specimen too: a couple of months after he and my mom got serious, his “last” girlfriend have birth to his child. he was an unemployed jazz musician in his 50s. anyway, since i was “officially” out of the house, when i came to visit, she made me put $5 on the dining room table, or i couldnt eat dinner with them. douchebag, of course, ate for free. i was absolutely ENRAGED at this at the time, and i still am! who the fuck did he think he was, and why was my mother treating him better than she treated me? and where was i supposed to get $5? fucking shit woman. they were engaged for awhile, and had the whole wedding planned, and it only ended because they went on a “honeymoon” before the wedding, because for some reason that was they way it worked out, and while they were on the trip he used HER CREDIT CARD to pay his back-taxes!! hello! the guy she eventually married was just as big a loser, if not actually WORSE than that guy was. and once again, he moved into HER house. while my sister and i were thrown to the curb BY HER, to fend for ourselves.

factcheckme - October 11, 2010

also, has anyone watched “bewitched” as an adult, and noticed the mother-in-law character actually is the best and most sympathetic character on the show? endora rocks! i always thought she was too hard on “dum-dum” and thats what we were all supposed to think. but in reality, she just loved her daughter and saw (very accurately) that he wasnt good enough for her, at all. these days though it might be the opposite: mothers are re-marrying complete assholes and losers, because its “better than being alone”, and daughters are disapproving of it. its not just me.

74. SheilaG - October 11, 2010

Very good advice on shopping FCM, and I absolutely subscribe to the list theory. I also do 12 month averages of expenses, to make sure I am on target.
A 12 month average of all grocery expenses will tell you what you’re used to. So if you want to cut back, then changes need to be made. Same thing with gas for the car.

Even when I was a kid, I just wasn’t into shopping, and my Mom had to make a fuss to get me to the clothing store. I was always ill at ease in those places, no surprise now, butch lesbian that I am that I really hate women’s clothes and how they look. But more important, I hate straight women’s clothing stores, fashion departments, hair salons etc. Hate them!!! Probably a kind of weird classism in me, since women in hair salons are working class, and drive me nuts with the heavily made up faces and nails.

Women could be so much better off going in together, getting a four to five bedroom home, sharing the mortgage. Four to five women units would create luxury in this day and age.

And all this doesn’t happen because of PIV and boyfriends… think of a rivival of the spinster in public life…

75. veganprimate - October 11, 2010

I know this is off-topic, but I notice a lot of comments re Lady Gaga. People are referring to this person as a woman. I was under the impression that Lady Gaga is a man. I’ve googled pics and it’s quite obvious to me. So, no one can take his creativity through his vagina, cuz he ain’t got one!

76. Eve's Daughter - October 12, 2010

FWIW, most young female attorneys seem to think we need to spend _more_ money on accessories and clothing than the average working woman, because being a litigator is essentially a “sales” position with the attorney as the product.

Check out http://www.corporette.com sometime if you want to see the crazy, crazy shit that many professional women (especially attorneys) spend their time worrying about re: fashion.

I manage to avoid the vast majority of the BS by working for the federal government in a non-litigation position, but I still get occasional flak for avoiding make-up and heels. Heels, expensive make-up, ridiculously priced clothing, “shaping” underwear like spanx, high-priced jewelry, professionally done nails and hair, etc., are considered de riguer for women in the legal profession. Career services offices in many law schools will even give female law students “pointers” on how to “dress for success” for job interviews and whatnot.

Personally, I wouldn’t recommend young feminists go into the law unless they’re willing to do something creative with their law degree or are willing to take the fight to the mats. The amount of sexism in the field is breathtaking, and most women don’t support each other.

factcheckme - October 12, 2010

Whoa! LOL. Actually I have heard that, but I don’t think its true. Isn’t she just some loner type from the Bronx? There was something in the news awhile back where she visited her old high school and gave it the finger or something. There must be yearbook pictures. Maybe I will Google her too.

factcheckme - October 12, 2010

Welp eves daughter…guess that just leaves doctors then. Heh. Hope the young uns don’t mind blood!

77. Undercover Punk - October 12, 2010

@what Eve’s Daughter said: I concur. The entire legal profession is predicated on hierarchies– between counsel and client, between lawyers and judges, and between lawyers themselves. It’s absolutely intolerable, as far as I’m concerned. I live and went to school in Boston, a very progressive town, and my law school’s Career Offices advised women to wear SKIRTS to interviews “because some men still don’t like to see women in pants.” Oh yes, this was For Real. The Old Boys’ Club is alive a kicking in the legal profession. Dominating it, really.

factcheckme - October 12, 2010

i accept what you and eve are saying about the legal profession UP. of course its still male-dominated. of course the men are still pigs. but the thing is that skirts dont COST anymore than pants do, really. thats what im talking about. and 5 skirt-suits will get you through the week. even if you buy $1000 suits, thats less money than most women spend in a year buying seperates, and suits last years and years. assuming you stay the same size of course, which truthfully IS an issue. and dry cleaning is an issue too. but its the seperates and mix-and-match thing that really drains the bank. and also shares the same problems of sizing and dry cleaning for the most part. also, fake nails and flashy jewlery are right out arent they? i mean really. conservatism rules. no female attorney i have ever met looks like one of the real houswives of atlanta.

78. sonia - October 12, 2010

I always thought Endora kicked ass and that they had great solidarity. I still think some covert feminist witch was working on that set.

79. sonia - October 12, 2010

re: Lady Gaga- she went to private school on the Upper East Side. She’s internet wealth-spawn and she does have ovaries.

80. sonia - October 12, 2010

“Women could be so much better off going in together, getting a four to five bedroom home, sharing the mortgage. Four to five women units would create luxury in this day and age.”

Brilliant.

81. SheilaG - October 12, 2010

If women make 77 cents on the dollar to men, then the whole idea of what we buy must be examined. The world might not be as we imagine it.

Every lesbian with a professional degree should go out and use it to the max. A law degree is a great resource not to be wasted. I don’t care how idiotic male dominated worlds are, I’m there to help women, and I want the tools to do it in concrete ways. Whether it is good divorce attorneys, wills trusts etc., child support, dead beat dads… women need advocates.

If we have educations, we are obligated to use them to advance women everywhere in everyway. I believe it is my duty to do this.

82. rhondda - October 13, 2010

Well, Sheila, I hate to tell you this, but most female lawyers are indoctrinated to the male legal system and can do nothing about it. Maybe some like Catherine MacKinnon or supreme court judges can, but the everyday women lawyer is bound by the oath and bound by legal presidence. It is a joke to think that a female lawyer can change anything. She has to go by the law and the law is made by patriarchy. Some things can be changed, but it is not lawyers who do it who deal with everyday legal issues. It is the ones who get into government who can, but they are so indoctrinated and given rewards by patriarchy that they forget. I have seen it over and over again.

83. SheilaG - October 13, 2010

If you were raped by a man, who would you prefer to fight your battle against that animal in court?
A feminist attorney or a man? I rest my case🙂

84. Undercover Punk - October 13, 2010

Thank you, Rhondda. I agree.

Sheila, I understand where you’re coming from, but the legal profession is extremely demanding–they basically HAZE new attorneys with 80 hour work weeks and $35K salaries DESPITE the $100K in loans– and ultimately SUCK THE LIFE from you. I have never felt so horrible or utterly depressed as I did when I worked in a law firm. I had NOTHING left to give. The amount of justice that any individual can effect within the system is very limited. Believe me, there were plenty of cases that *deserved* to be won but simply couldn’t be. And the amount of SHIT you have to eat WITH A SMILE just isn’t worth it.😦

85. Undercover Punk - October 13, 2010

Also, I HATE suits. Bad association.

86. SheilaG - October 13, 2010

Oy


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