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Sexual Intelligence? February 19, 2011

Posted by FCM in books!, feminisms, gender roles, PIV, politics.
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i am currently reading dworkin’s “right-wing women” and as usual, she cuts right to the chase.  front and center is the issue of intelligence, which is what right-wing women are most often said to be lacking, and it is this particular alleged “lack” for which right-wing women are most ridiculed and hated.  right?  damn.  dworkin really knew how to strip away the bullshit didnt she?  it just amazes me, every time.

regarding the issue of intelligence, and womens intelligence generally, dworkin dissects the politics of it.  specifically, that the male-defined concepts of “woman” and “intelligence” are contradictory, by design.  this is often the case of course.  when comparing the qualities of a “good woman” with those of a “good human” women always seem to come up short.  regarding intelligence:

if you are female, rather than male, you are less likely to display or indeed develop what is widely known as “intelligence”.  and the “better woman” you are, the more those effects are exaggerated.  because not only is it unladylike to display what you know even when you know it, most women across time and place have been unable to cultivate knowing, being sequestered as women are from the larger world, and relegated to the “female” parts of it.  so that, while some women may become educated, very few are ever really free to go to the ends of their thoughts.  or to possess what dworkin calls a “creative intelligence” or what mary daly invoked with her 5th cause extrapolation–to jump off the cliff, and fall how you fall, and land where you land, and to be surprised and amazed at what you find there:

even if you are somehow able to exercise a degree of creative intelligence, you arent a good woman, or even a real woman, at all.  which is especially evident if you arent currently being regularly fucked by a man, without charging him for it.

now, i think we can all grasp the concept of “intelligence” as well as the politics of it.  this isnt exactly news: men have always defined “positive qualities” (including intelligence) to benefit themselves, based on characterisitcs that they know believe themselves to have, and that are within their ability to develop. 

but women also are not expected to have any sexual intelligence, and dworkin postulates that there is, in fact, such a thing.  and surely she is right: if “sexuality” is anywhere near as important as its made out to be, then by definition, there are things there that are worth knowing.  arent there?  but women arent allowed to explore that either.  just like every other area of knowledge, womens knowledge of sexuality is limited to their personal experience of it, being relegated as they are to a tiny portion of it, to the female-part of it, as objects used, for it.  and disallowed to explore further.  disallowed any real understanding of it, or forced to disown and deny what they do understand about it:

see?  none of us are supposed to address sexuality, that way.  we are supposed to do it, but not theorize about it.  to do it, is to be liberated about it.  to theorize about it is to be a dried up old hag of a sexless prude.  well which one is it?  are there things there worth knowing, or not?  is sex important, or isnt it?

welp…not surprisingly, it looks like it is, in fact, important.  so much so that embracing and cultivating actual sexual knowing might just be the source of womens liberation, from men.  both a revolution of thought, and a revolution of action:

but most women arent going there.  either they cannot, being unable to nurture and cultivate real sexual knowing; or they must disavow what they know, because the knowledge is too revolutionary.  this is what it means, to be female, under patriarchy.  this is the shared experience of women as a sexual class, around the world.  even as the fun-fems deny there is any such thing as “woman,” intelligence is a political issue, and women are denied it.  and sexual intelligence is most obviously and painfully beyond our reach, as members of the sex-class, being forced to endure PIV-centric sexuality, as defined by men. 

of course, even as women make profound concessions with both our intellectual integrity and our actual knowing to survive, the ability to survive as a woman under patriarchy does not measure very high on the intelligence-scale.  the one made by men, to serve themselves.  nope!  that particular skill-set just doesnt register, at all. 

and with that, dworkin puts the caricature of the stupid right-wing woman to bed.  intelligence is a non-issue.  because by any meaningful scale, all women are fucking stupid.  you know, or none of us are.

but what she also does here is call attention to “sexual intelligence” in a way that i am hoping might actually get through to someone who needs to hear it.  i mean really.  what feminist doesnt get that knowledge, and the making of it and the way its distributed, is largely political?


1. FCM - February 19, 2011

ok this went live before it was ready, sorry bout that! its ready now. i really only changed the end.

“right wing women” is more political than the other books i have recently read, and it occured to me that it might be a style and a topic that the fun-fems can actually relate to. being well-versed in teh liberal dickwad politicking of course, as the more outspoken of them obviously are.

and i know that some of them are here reading. my stats have doubled since i wrote about jessica valenti. dare i hope that some of this actually gets through??

2. FAB Libber - February 19, 2011

the model exists to entice counterfeit female sexual revolutionaries, gullible liberal girls and to serve the men who enjoy them

Sounds like a precise description of 3rd wave.

Will the message ever get through that fucking your way to empowerment (on men’s terms) is the elephant in the room?

3. Sargassosea - February 20, 2011

Sexual intelligence?

Absolutely and I think there may only be a *handful* of women who have discovered and practiced it, especially in the pomo era.. As for me, I rank myself as an Intermediate in the discovery phase and Pre-Pubescent in the practice phase. It’s not easy to claw through all of the propaganda and conditioning to forge a space for yourself ONLY.

I think it is dependant on being very, very intimate with yourself first. And, of course, I don’t use “intimacy” as a useless euphemism for PIV or anything *sexual* at all. I’m talking about REAL intimacy; a deep understanding of one’s self and how that self fits into the (sexual) world that surrounds us. Again, it’s not an easy exercise to undertake.

4. Sargassosea - February 20, 2011

that’s dependEnt 🙂

5. joy - February 20, 2011

This is exactly what I wanted to read today.

I’ve been working on a book project for two years. My collaborator burned out, but this is what is left of it, in blog form:


I’m adding to it as I feel capable of doing so. It relates to this topic. Companion pieces: Women and Madness (Phyllis Chesler) and How To Suppress Women’s Writing (Joanna Russ).

6. rhondda - February 20, 2011

I hope you have lots of readers from fun fems fcm. In fact, I would say that their lives depend upon waking up to the consequences of such a view. The hard part is letting go of the ‘fun’ part or what one thought was fun because everyone else said it was.
Dworkin is an amazing writer and she has been so maligned, even by so-called allies. (I say ‘is’ even though she is dead because I believe she lives on in her works and can still touch lives.)

7. justpassingthrough - February 20, 2011

This post is absolutely brilliant and timely. I love how sexual intelligence is clearly delineated from pornographic sex, or male-pleasing performance sex. Somehow I’ve always had sexual intelligence, long before I understood that I was boldly defying my designated role of enthusiastic cum receptacle. It’s a no wonder that past sexual partners were invariably disappointed with me, and I with them. I had a sexual vision I stayed true to, sexual values that were meaningful to me, boundaries no man in his right mind dared to cross (I did not take kindly to manipulation in any form). I was fully in possession of my sexuality and what resulted was endless frustration, anxiety and discouragement. I had no idea why until after I discovered feminism. Men don’t want women with sexual intelligence, they want a living, programmable RealDoll.

Good Maud, I hate men.

FCM - February 20, 2011

love, love, love dworkin. every time i start a new book of hers, i am amazed at her clarity, and the fearlessness and truth of her vision and her voice. its amazing, every single time. its so obvious that the widespread hatred for her was rooted in the desire to destroy her work.

FCM - February 20, 2011

the desire AND NECESSITY to destroy her work. but guess what? its still there.

8. zeph - February 20, 2011

“just like every other area of knowledge, womens knowledge of sexuality is limited to their personal experience of it, being relegated as they are to a tiny portion of it, to the female-part of it, as objects used, for it.  and disallowed to explore further.  disallowed any real understanding of it, or forced to disown and deny what they do understand about it:”

Very interesting, I think one of the reasons men are able to keep us silent, even among ourselves, is because we are allowed to draw status from our relationships to them. When we discuss the reality of sex! Where does that leave the status of wives, favoured mistresses and live in girlfriends? When we know what those positions demand, from the majority of women.
It also affects the narrative status we afford ourselves when we regard our own pasts. If we see the truth about male desire, we have to abandon all our stored sense of prestige based on our personal interactions with men. Since we have been forced to invest so much of our lives in pursuit of this prestige, this process becomes agonising, requiring an almost complete negation of the selves we have come to believe we are, in order to accomplish it. Hence the stringency with which we control each others voices in reference to men and sex, even here on the feminist blogsphere.

I think it might be powerful in a group setting; to consign to the great rubbish heap of life, all status and sense of specialness men have induced in us, in order to manipulate us to abandon ourselves and each other. Women are special amazing people in millions of different ways we do not need to have these qualities conferred upon us. They can keep their smoking brand of patriarchal approval, and the gaudy trophies they award wild women when they have, literally, broken them in.

This relates to another big problem that remains within the women’s movement; due to constant brainwashing from literature, movies, patriarchal religions, etc. Many feminists are still, at heart, het-couple-ists., and there is no way out for women as a whole, through that door.

9. SheilaG - February 20, 2011

het couple-ists — what a great word.

And the idea that women somehow are stuck in their own experience of sex speaks volumes, because we haven’t had enough time to develop a sexual ideology, philosophy… a philosophical understanding is crucial…it’s why they tried to destroy both Dworkin and Daly. It’s why they continue to mislabel Daly every chance they get, why MTFs are out to destroy her work.

Have a sexual ideology, tell the radical truth that perhaps almost all women worldwide get nothing out of PIV, that there is no sexual satisfaction in this for the majority of women, and that all women seem to cover this up. They cover up the derivative status they get from men, and like an addiction, it is empty and not real.

I think this must be horrifying for older heterosexual women… the realization that your youth was utterly wasted, that the sexualization of your bodies was programmed by male idiots, that that culture took its toll. It’s rather like people who were in cults and got out of them, and the rest of the world that was not in the cult has a hard time understanding cult mind control, which is what sex with men actually is.

It’s why lesbians are such a threat, and why the world is so threatened by female only spaces, and hense patriarchy invents the trans invasion. No accident at all since the trans invasion was created by male western medicine… just in time to derail lesbian nation, which was really gaining traction…. bring on lesbian marriage, so that you can corral lesbian nation into hetero imitative institutions, use up lesbian life caring for kids, keep them on the hetero train… don’t dare leave women to their own devices without men, without children thinking of a philosophy that would so liberate women worldwide, it would take our breath away… imagine an uprising of women worldwide that could happen overnight?

10. FAB Libber - February 20, 2011

Hence the stringency with which we control each others voices in reference to men and sex

Yes, for the longest time, sex (as in PIV) was something “we didn’t talk about” for the older generations. However, this “don’t talk about it” I think was only reserved for women (so they could not put 2 & 2 together), whereas I think men have always talked about it among themselves.

Even though women are allowed to talk about it now, it is not an honest conversation that is allowed, it is only the male narrative allowed.

I think this must be horrifying for older heterosexual women… the realization that your youth was utterly wasted, that the sexualization of your bodies was programmed by male idiots, that that culture took its toll.

Many do wake up in later life, and there are quite a number of later-lesbians post 40. The het-grooming is indeed all pervasive, hard to avoid, and hard to fully de-programme from. I would call it the Cult of Men, not even the Cult of Heterosexuality, because there is no room for women to express themselves within the cult.

11. FAB Libber - February 20, 2011

so that you can corral lesbian nation into hetero imitative institutions

Speaking of which, yes, the government already interfere with lesbian couples.

I have never known the courts to forbid a man to move away for work/other reasons.

12. rhondda - February 20, 2011

Well, Sheila, as an older woman, I will say that there are moments of horror, but the realization is not so much a wasted youth as a lifetime of experiences to draw upon. As Daly pointed out, this is the earthquake moment and usually happens when one is alone. It becomes self hate to say a ‘wasted youth’ I sort of was a fun feminist in the 70’s. But like others found the men to actually be wanting. I had no group of women and those I knew were getting married. Marriage too was something else than the fairy tale. A good thing to know. But the real sense that I have now is a coming home to myself and a completely different understanding of just who I am. Men usually fall off the cliff into nihilism. Women don’t. What dies is that false self one has created just to survive. Like the snake shedding its skin, it is a process and no one can do it for you, but golly there are women who have done it and can help like rad fems.

FCM - February 20, 2011

wait…the fun fems do get that intelligence is a political issue, right? i mean, i am sure they have all heard and accepted by now that IQ tests and “the bell curve” are racist. will they be able to put 2 + 2 together here, and realize that everything they “know” about heterosexual sex is from the perspective of a sexual OBJECT…and that anything they have figured out on their own from the perspective of a born-woman doesnt matter (to anyone besides us evol radicals they hate)?

FCM - February 20, 2011

dworkin was a hopeless optimist too. not that many people acknowledge it.

13. rhondda - February 20, 2011

You are raising the bar very high there fcm. Political? Isn’t that when you place an x every so often for some dude to tell you how to live? The personal is political? Doesn’t that mean I should get whatever I want just because I want it? Don’t you just love pomo? It’s so easy.

FCM - February 20, 2011

yeah i know rhondda. there is just such an easy correlation here, i think even a baby feminist could understand it, especially since they already get the IQ stuff (anyone who doesnt get the IQ stuff has to turn in their feminist and/or liberal credentials IMMEDIATELY!) this is a liberal favorite. put one foot on front of the other people. its easy!

FCM - February 20, 2011

they like easy right?

14. rhondda - February 20, 2011

I just want to say that I have found a new bible. It is called Radically Speaking: feminism reclaimed. It’s edited by Diane Bell and Renate Klein. I am in heaven. It’s mine too. All mine.

15. Sargassosea - February 20, 2011

The Dworkin rocks! Especially with Right Wing Women; it’s one of my all time favorite reads.

Sometimes I feel sorry for her, what an optimist she is (she DOES live on!). But she’s right of course. There’s always hope but only if we keep slogging away at it. I’m pretty convinced that I won’t see the Revolution and that’s okay because I actually care about women I will never know; I want THEM to reach the land we’ve promised them.

And I continue to slog away because I too believe that women WILL be free.

16. SheilaG - February 20, 2011

Hey Rhondda, I like your image of a snake shedding it’skin as a metaphore for straight women waking up later in life. That makes me feel happier somehow, because the idea that any woman would ever have sex with a man is so horrifying to me.

17. Sargassosea - February 20, 2011

(Radically Speaking: feminism reclaimed

Just downloaded to my kindle. Looks awesome!)

18. rhondda - February 20, 2011

Hey Sheila, guess what? It has become horrifying to me too. However, I do not regret experiencing the birth process. Because mine were very fast, the doctors didn’t get there in time and the nurses were more like midwives for me.
I was talking yesterday with an 80 year old widow about sex and we both had decided that sex was out and even companionship with men was a boring situation. It was so funny. It was like we suddenly found the sisterhood.

19. SheilaG - February 20, 2011

I think what’s weird is that sex with men was always evil to me, always horrifying, abhorrent, and I could never fathom why women had sex with men. NEVER could even fathom why they loved the enemy. When I was a lot younger, I just shrugged my shoulders…oh well straight woman A just got another stupid boyfriend… I was bored to death by college women going on and on about how wonderful their boyfriends are…

Now fast forward 30 years, and I swear those same women (metaphorically) are here saying the things that are being said and it’s weird. Now they get it, but then they could not. Being a lesbian, I just say over and over again, I told you so, I told you so, I told you so. And I’m willing to bet more women coming here will get suckered into the male sex thing yet again, no matter what women say.

20. SheilaG - February 20, 2011

P.S. It’s why I often think straight women are either completely deluded or just plain insane.

FCM - February 20, 2011

it comes with experience sheila, because nobody is telling the truth about men. how else are young women going to know the truth when everyone is lying? its literally a vast conspiracy to hide the truth about men and what they do to girls and women. LITERALLY. A CONSPIRACY. of silence, and obfuscating the truth, and rewriting history.

then when they get a taste of it with their first boyfriend, the PIV-pressure, the pregnancy scares, and him cheating, stealing from you, beating you up, or whatever parade of horribles he brings into your life, you have everyone telling you “there are other fish in the sea”. and those are the supportive ones! others are telling you to marry the bastard, or that if hes not hitting you and he has a steady job that hes a good catch. AS IF! when the truth of the matter is that PIV is dangerous, even when its wanted. and men are aggressive and entitled, and if you have something they want, they feel entitled to take it from you. whether its your money or your apartment or whatever. they move in.

i have heard more stories of men being dependant on women than the other way around, among my friends and my family too (the younger women, my age and younger. the older women are married to “breadwinner” types). but then, the more you give them, the more dependant YOU become on THEM, to pay you back. this way, even the biggest loser can foster dependance in women. BY STEALING FROM THEM. when the women were doing JUST FINE before doodbro showed up and started fucking them, and fucking them over. making babies has the same effect.

and yes, there is a crazy-making element involved. it makes you nuts. being dependant on a fucking loser to pay you back what you gave him…is one of the biggest mindfucks i have ever experienced. and i have experienced this one more than once, and heard about it happening a LOT.

21. rhondda - February 20, 2011

Well, I guess Sheila you were just plain lucky and did not have parents and teachers telling you, you were insane if you didn’t like boys and that people will tell tales on you and that it is sick and don’t embarrass me and not being coerced into a role is a real blessing. Some of us were broken by incest, by punishment, by rape, by psychological manipulation. And some of us found a way out eventually.

FCM - February 20, 2011

now that i think about it, the “older women” married to “breadwinner types” helped their doodbros out too, in the beginning. my mom put my dad through medical school for example. then they divorced and he was a doctor, and she was a single woman with 3 kids who never finished college herself. this arrangement works out sometimes, where women sacrifice everything to help thier husbands careers, and the idea is that the men will share with their families when their ship comes in. unfortunately, many times the men dont live up to their end of this bargain. and why would they? many many MANY men only have kids in the first place due to mandatory PIV. and they only have wives because they knocked them up as “girlfriends” when they were dating. many men dont even want the families they have, and they definitely dont love them. women often dont understand any of this, until its too late.

22. Undercover Punk - February 20, 2011

Radically speaking: Feminism reclaimed. Sample just downloaded to my Kindle. xoxoxoxo

23. thebewilderness - February 20, 2011

Men have always been dependent on women from the moment of their birth.
Not just individual men, but men as a class.
Were they not dependent on women they would have no reason to go to such extraordinary lengths to control women. We do not build a cistern to control and contain water if we are not dependent on water.

Right Wing Women was one of the saddest books I have ever read. I felt that suddenly I understood them perfectly and it nearly broke my heart.

24. SheilaG - February 20, 2011

There is no luck to my life at all. I simply don’t experience life at all the way straight women do, and never have. I had no sexual interest in males at all, so it was very hard to figure out what all these women felt at all.

Nobody much bothered me, I worked very hard in school, studied on Friday nights, never had much in common with anyone in high school, fell in love with college, continued on my studies, fell in love with women, Was scared about work and economic security, took a long time to come out because of that fear.

So when you are this way, the world of women looks completely insane all the time. No matter what people said about men, I just thought this is crazy, these guys are dangerous, stupid mean rapist colonizing making girls pregnant boring… my primary experience is boredom with the hetero world just about all the time.

I don’t even like to socialize with straight women unless they are on their own with NO men in the room. I just can’t stant watching them simper around men. It makes me sick to watch this behavior.

There is no luck in being a lesbian at all, no luck in paying a price and standing your ground against all the hetero women who insulted and degraded me… it’s very hard for me to feel much at all for the messes of straight life, and it is a mess all the time it seems. Lesbians are willing to step up, we are the radicals, we pushed feminism so much farther, and it is no accident that so many great radical feminist writing comes out of lesbian’s pens. No wonder, we literally feel nothing of what the hetero woman feels… on a good day, I just sit back in detachment, distant, unfeeling… I am blessed with a nature that never cared all that much for popular opinion, and was very inwardly focused. Hetero culture was so boring, that it was an easy choice in many ways. I had faith in myself, the way Mary Daly did, and can really relate to her pioneering courage.

One day, maybe straight women will wake up and stop placating and serving and collaborating with the enemy, but until that time comes, until straight women are willing to step up, we’ll live in male supremacy, all of us. I’m not holding my breath.

25. Sargassosea - February 20, 2011

“I had no sexual interest in males at all, so it was very hard to figure out what all these women felt at all.”

Sheila, you know I adore you BUT a lot of us ex-het women look back and realize that we had no sexual interest in men either. So for you to have escaped the brainwashing to US looks like sheer *luck*.

It’s not very easy for us to listen to you repeatedly say how utterly deluded het women are when we have repeatedly told you that we WERE utterly deluded. Again, the fact that you escaped all of the hideousness of *stumbling* in a culture that is DESIGNED to make us stumble is truly “lucky“ if you don’t mind us saying so.

26. calliope - February 21, 2011

SheilaG, what you said in another thread about most straight women being bewildered by & invisiblizing lesbians.. well I wanted to ask you, it happened to me today, we were talking about my friend who I’ve been worried about. As soon as I let slip to her that my friend is a lesbian, she just said “oh” and the conversation ended. My mom is very tolerant and not homophobic in the least but she was surprised and I could almost feel her connecting the dots about me – maybe. My mom wants grandkids sometime soon.. My mom is very straight. We’re very close and I wonder, will our conversations freeze and become permanently awkward if I come out? Why are straight women always so lukewarm towards their lesbian fellows?

even as a young lesbian I’ve had to consciously stop manpleasing – I used to be terrified of men, and still am. can you believe that I actually used to mistake that terror for attraction? whoever it was that said that the definition of love is messed up in patriarchy – oh how it is, it took me my whole 22 years to realize it’s ok to be les. I was thinking it was wrong, for so long, because of the notion that “het” is natural for everyone..

I’m sorry FCM I posted this comment on the last article but meant to post it here

27. calliope - February 21, 2011

I’m in awe of Dworkin’s brilliance, I must track down all her works..

Btw I’ve been trying to find ANYTHING by Mary Daly and it’s damn near impossible, it’s as if she’d never existed. I really hope the radfem movement is growing – we can’t let the funfems get away with this erasure

28. SheilaG - February 21, 2011

The thing is if you call lesbians lucky, then you are negating our strength, focus, and determination to not give in to patriarchal conditioning. I find luck an insult, I was simply much more focused than the average girl or teenager, much more focused. And believe me, I lived in the very same culture as the rest of the straight girls, the very same town, the very same neighborhood. There was all this pressure to date boys to go to the damn prom, to wear dresses, to do all that stuff. No it wasn’t luck that I set my own course, it was fierce determination, and I resent the Luck– that is a grave insult to the power of lesbian nation, the power of the amazon ideal. And from my point of view, I think if women wanted more freedom, women would get it.

It depends on just how important this really is.
I don’t like hard work, determination, willingness to take all that abuse from straight girls, and believe me they were vicious, abusive, and attacking ALL THE TIME when I was younger. The boys were brutal little jerks, whom I had to bash back, while straight girls stood on the sidelines giggling… I don’t have much sympathy at all given those memories and it wasn’t luck it was force of will, it was my desire for a male free universe, for freedom. There are people who come around that determined, and we should be considered heroines, visionaries… but we still get abuse from straight women who call our guts, strength and determination luck!

29. joy - February 21, 2011

Does this go back to the idea that there is no such thing as a woman who comes out later in life, only real lesbians and the rest of us fakers?

Because that shit is depressing.

30. Jilla - February 21, 2011

Pure women hate.

31. Sargassosea - February 21, 2011

Sheila, I absolutely understand where you are coming from; *I* understand what you mean by being insulted when Luck is brought into *your* equation because you did have to persevere, and it was hard.

I have lived more than twice as long as an out, out, OUT! lesbian woman (with a life-long lesbian) than I did as a het girl and I am very familiar with being misunderstood, slighted and invisablized in big cities and small towns in the USA and abroad.

“I don’t have much sympathy at all given those memories and it wasn’t luck it was force of will, it was my desire for a male free universe, for freedom.”

We all have bad memories of the ways we were (and are) abused and *I* posit that it WAS luck and force of will and desire for humanity/freedom that has brought all of us here.

We get it, here.

FCM - February 21, 2011

joy, i dont know why you keep going there? why do you care what sheila thinks, about this issue in particular? and if you already know what she thinks, why do you keep asking her what she means? seriously. just let it go. or, if you have something to say, just say it. without a question mark at the end, as if you are asking a question. its just antagonizing. okay?

i think sheila is 100% on the money with much of what she says here. she drives me up a wall with her bootstrapping talk, and she knows it, and she does it anyway. i have called her on it a hundred times, and others have too. i NEVER ask her what she means, because i already know what she means.

JUST SAY IT. that is all.

FCM - February 21, 2011

amazon.com has almost everything i have looked for to date. daly, jeffreys, dworkin, mackinnon. daly even mentioned another book in “quintessence” as one of HER favorite books that had gone out of print and was impossible to find: “the first sex” by elizabeth gould davis. i found that on amazon too.

FCM - February 21, 2011

i think luck has everything to do with it, and that bootstrapping is bullshit, across the board. the truth of it is, i think, that some people see this shit for what it is, and others dont. and we dont know why. WHY would a 10 or 12 year old girl have the desire for freedom and a male-free universe…when there is absolutely NOTHING in this culture or any culture really that would have ever given her the idea that this was even possible?

its as if sheila was seeing into the fucking future, or into the past, or onto another planet. WHY she was able to see this, is a question i havent seen answered, by sheila or anyone else. why do some people see? several people have asked the question in the comments here over the last year and a half, and it always just hangs there unanswered. i think its because its unanswerable.

32. thebewilderness - February 21, 2011

Zuska had a chat at her blog a while back about this at scientopia. It is an interesting phenomenon.
It is also touched on regarding childhood abuse by Alice Miller in her book The Drama of the Gifted Child.

The part I can’t figure out is the bit where all these het women are assumed to be ignorant of the utter contempt that Sheila holds for them. I’m guessing they are aware of it. I certainly am.

33. thebewilderness - February 21, 2011

My apologies for speaking about you rather than to you, Sheila. I know how disconcerting that can be.

34. calliope - February 21, 2011

I agree FCM. I don’t think it’s right to blame any woman under patriarchy for being dependent on men. All of us here -radfems- are the lucky ones who by circumstance, realization, misfortune, luck or mistakes have had our eyes opened to patriarchy. Funfems are in denial and have been successfully sidetracked by this “intersectionalty of oppression” bs.

35. calliope - February 21, 2011

And thanks, I’ll definitely try amazon! It’s just sad that it’s so hard to find

36. joy - February 21, 2011

Sorry for being an asshole.

I’ve figured out that there is no such thing as a late-in-life lesbian, and maybe that is in fact as insulting as men trying to say they are “late-in-life women.”

But for young women who might want to ‘come out’ as lesbian after a period of time being het (which is what I read calliope as saying; sorry if I’m wrong, calliope), that’s really painful to think about. There isn’t really anywhere to go from that point.

I’m pretty much there myself, realizing I lied to myself and was a coward for such a long time that there isn’t anything to go back to now. And I guess that’s why I care.

37. joy - February 21, 2011

Ultimately it’s the raw rub of knowing I was a fraud and a coward, and that none of us can ever go back.

How is one supposed to gain any kind of sexual intelligence under a patriarchy that is designed to prevent it? But it’s not like the information isn’t out there. It isn’t like we don’t feel like we’re doing something wrong while we’re doing whatever man-pleasing things we do.
So why don’t we stop doing it, knowing it feels wrong? Brainwashing? Some people can resist brainwashing, so it’s more like self-delusion bordering on mental illness.

If we keep doing things we know are wrong, for petty and selfish reasons (wishing to please Daddy Patriarchy, trying to avoid homophobia, being weak-willed, whatever) — in the end, who’s to blame, other than ourselves, for when or if we break free? If we deny our own consciences, our own consciousnesses, then what is that but fakery?

38. SheilaG - February 21, 2011

All societies have people who just don’t go along to get along, for whatever reason. And I know it is this huge bone of contention that straight women like to say “oh I was young, i didn’t know, I was too brainwashed by patriarchy.” Whatever the reason, it has to do with how much you are attached to being popular, or fitting in…
I just would say that as a young person I had a larger vision. I had a larger vision of what I wanted for my life, and it did not include men at all. There were probably hundreds of girls like me all over America in 1966 or 1967, and because we were little kids, we saw revolution on our TV screens, we saw civil rights marches, we heard the disturbing music of a new world… and we had tremendous imagination. You did not have that drive or imagination, you threw in your lot with men, and you thought at the time that this would work out FCM. What is hard to imagine is that lesbian nation really was the right choice at the right time… and that the hetero game was up, and that this was just not going to work as well anymore. For whatever reason. How would I know why all the hetero women swallowed the cool aid with their infatuation with oppressors? I believe in a heroic inner voice, i don’t rely on malestream culture or social pressure to guide me, and never did as a kid. The culture of America, with its women demeaning images was horrifying to me. It was so obviously crazy and nonsensical.
If you read Mary Daly’s autobiography, you’ll have another story of a lesbian who discovered herself, who invented herself, and who never gave in to heteronormativity. The lesbian movement was born in the late 60s and early 70s, so this information was in the air. I could feel it in the same way that Mary Daly felt a wind blow her forward. It is the spirit of an age, and it comes to all kinds of little girls everywhere. Someone wakes up, and this wake up goes on and on. The life of the hetero woman is the losing proposition of the 21st century; it is an endless struggle with beings who have no desire to ever change, and still hetero women are looking for that golden ticket of Mr. Right. Still they believe that sex with men gets them something. I don’t know what—material wealth perhaps, social status… glamour, a mansion, famous friends and exotic locations, babies… motherhood… all that stuff draws hetero women like a siren song, and they lap it up, they fall for this bait for eons.
1968 was the year I turned 11. I was a very politically engaged child, I knew more about the US constitution than most adults. I read Karl Marx, Thomas Jefferson, I could explain the entire electoral college system. I was a very bright, very well read child. I loved the library, and had an inner ambition, and I created a self that I thought the very best thing on earth. I met the very best woman on earth my first week of college.
And this may annoy the hell out of straight women, because you are not accustomed to having the entire culture be of no use to you. Had you married well, you’d have no complaints. You would not long for feminist revolution, you would not suffer the horror of strip clubs and fun feminism.
There was no fun feminism in 1968 that I was aware of, there was serious feminism, even more serious feminism by 1973. And this information was out in the world, it was there for any girl to read. Ms. Magazine was on newstands everywhere in 1972 or so.

And there is a world out there that lesbians go to that is outside the worldview, outside of straight consciousness. It is not accessible to the straight mind, and I am convinced that the sexual bond with men destroys the capacity to access this. It’s why there is incest and the rape of children, because men don’t want women to have this opportunity. We are visionaries FCM, dreamers, serious… we have no close ties to hetero family values, we bond easily with strangers, we travel the world… we are restless searchers in the cause of lesbian sisterhood worldwide. I meet my sisters everywhere, and they come in all races and colors and languages. We are not hetero, we have not swallowed the hetero cool aid, and this outsider status gives us a certain agency and power unknown to the straight woman. I often feel sorry for you all, but it is just our life. The simple answer to how on earth I could have figured this out so early in life probably is WE WANTED FREEDOM more badly than any of you. And I can’t say why a male free life was such a driving force… perhaps it is the biology of a special minority group within the human race. We are the change agents, we are the women who are different, we cross gender, we cross cultural understanding. Read Judy Grahn and the other visionary lesbian poets to understand this. Read the poetry and literature of the lesbians of the left bank of Paris, but still you will never know this freedom, because you were born straight. It is an accident of herstory to be born a few years before the birth of the modern lesbian movement. It is a very powerful sense of self we have, and you can denegrate it, you can make fun of it, you can make fun of our determination and call it bootstrapping, but you know in your heart of hearts that at a young age, you didn’t want any of this. And you will have to live with this. Right now there are lesbians in Egypt longing to be free, there are lesbians in Saudi Arabia… I’ve met lesbians from just about every nation on earth, and am still meeting new ones. There is a race of women destined to resist patriarchy; I just was born at a time when this was a renewed passion. Just as Mary Daly was born at a time when she rose up. We all have something special in common, and you will never understand this. It means nothing to you, but it is our freedom and our culture, and our renaissance if you will.

39. SheilaG - February 21, 2011

Perhaps lesbians have sexual intelligence. I rather like this term. I am so proud of lesbian nation and my small part in this global movement. I have much to celebrate and be proud of. I won’t let any straight anger at bootstrapping rain on my pride and pleasure at being a part of a lovely visionary process… it was a big chance to competely and utterly reject everything straight society tried to coerce me into signing onto.

But I took that chance…. 🙂

40. SheilaG - February 21, 2011

Sometimes I think it is as hard to describe lesbian self and happiness to straight women as it is for straight women to try to get straight men to understand the harms of PIV, or male supremacy in marriage. Think about it, you are angry at men for their obtuseness, and yet you show the same anger at lesbian triumph, a lesbian vision. I simply sing the epic story of lesbian nation, arms and the woman I sing…

FCM - February 21, 2011

sheila, if you had access to a library, a GOOD library even, AND you had the leisure time and intelligence/literacy to become well-read, then you were lucky, and i cannot believe that you dont see it. your parents LET you. okay? and you were LUCKY enough to have proper childhood nutrition and perhaps a natural talent to develop intellectually. jesus. a 10 year old, especially a 10-year old girl, has no autonomy, no access, and no leisure time they are not GIVEN by someone else. so thank your parents why dont you? i am not about to call it a PRIVILEGE, but it was absolutely just dumb blind LUCK that made it so. if you didnt have access to a good library, it wouldnt have mattered how much gumption you had, or how much you wanted to read. thats the point, and thats where the bootstrapping shit falls flat.

if you are assuming that everyone even in this space had access to a good library as a child, you are kidding yourself. and some women find the misogyny of the classics painful to read. it turns them off of reading. why didnt you?

FCM - February 21, 2011

and as far as lesbians being biologically different from everyone else, a “biological minority” as you say, then that has everything to do with luck doesnt it? a roll of the dice. i am not saying i believe you are biologically different than me, but if YOU believe it, then YOU should also see it as pure dumb luck. but you dont see it that way. why?

i am open to the possibility that evolution is taking place here. perhaps small bio-changes but whatever it is, it has to be combined with a certain intelligence and some autonomy, or its largely meaningless. as dworkin says in these passages, access to the larger world is crucial. and this is something thats denied women in general, and always has been.

41. veganprimate - February 21, 2011

Sheila said: “The thing is if you call lesbians lucky, then you are negating our strength, focus, and determination to not give in to patriarchal conditioning. I find luck an insult”

By the same token, you are implying that hets and ex-hets are/were weak and unfocused.

Being insulted by the word lucky is pretty mild to the insults you hurl at straights and ex-het lesbians.

You seem to be fine for a period of time, but then the het and ex-het bashing starts up again.

I think it’s wonderful that there are lesbians who had all this shit figured out from day 1. And we don’t want to invisibilize them or deny their experience, but honestly, does every other fucking comment you make have to consist of your crowing about how awesome you and other gold stars are and how stupid, deluded, insane, etc. straight women are?

Honestly, in any other context, this constant bragging about oneself and concomitant insulting of others would be seen as low self-esteem. People who truly think they are wonderful don’t feel the need to broadcast it 24/7, nor do they have to tear down other people.

42. veganprimate - February 21, 2011

Sheila said: “All societies have people who just don’t go along to get along, for whatever reason. And I know it is this huge bone of contention that straight women like to say “oh I was young, i didn’t know, I was too brainwashed by patriarchy.” Whatever the reason, it has to do with how much you are attached to being popular, or fitting in…”

Oh, really? Do you have any idea what growing up was like for me or anyone else? That is just so dismissive I could puke.

I escaped the heteroworld as a nulliparous woman. I could follow your lead and position myself above other ex-hets who had babies with men. But I realize how much of that was due to luck. I had one or two instances of peeing on a stick in a public restroom, my heart beating wildly. My life could just as easily gone in another direction.

I did have some autonomy in certain areas, and I’m proud of the decisions that I made that have made my life a smidge better than it might have been, but I also am grateful for the luck I’ve had, and I know other women aren’t so lucky.

Hierarchizing is patriarchal. And this whole if-I-can-do-it-so-can-you shit is ridiculous. I’ve been guilty of it myself, I admit.

Hey, if you want to hierarchize, we can do it from another angle. What about all the ex-het women who have had to overcome trauma bonding and brainwashing? I think that makes them pretty strong, remarkable women. Doesn’t that rank a little higher than overcoming, for example, a bunch of race and class privilege?

I’m not looking to hierarchize and place ex-hets above gold stars, but I’m just pointing out that if you change the criteria, you can put anyone on top.

FCM - February 21, 2011

if you change the criteria, you can put anyone on top.

indeed! this is absolutely true. also true that gold-star lesbians have no idea what trauma bonding even is, and what it feels like, and what it does.

FCM - February 21, 2011

also, regarding sexual intelligence, i have said here before that i told my dad when i was like 10-12 that i didnt think i would ever want to have intercourse. he literally laughed in my face, and said “yes you will.” creepy right? he was trying to give me “the talk” and i had already had it with my mom, and i had decided that i would never want to do it. he claimed to want to talk about it with me, but he obviously wasnt interested in what *i* had to say about it. its such an indoctrination isnt it? and my mother of course told me that PIV was “sex.” she never even hinted that it wasnt. even though she had 3 unwanted pregnancies (and three unwanted children, INCLUDING ME, the one she was talking to!) herself.

i also told an early lover that i was “afraid of cum at this point in my life” and he laughed at me, and said he was “going to wear a condom.” well thats good of you! asshole! i am sure it never crossed his mind that we shouldnt engage in any activity that would cause him to ejaculate near my vagina.

this is where womens sexual intelligence, the things we DO know, simply arent honored, at all. where we are expected to disavow it. its the first of many. after that experience of being honest and being laughed at, i dont think i ever said it again, until i recalled it here. and after that, the only “real-world experience” i had with “sex” was from the experience of someone relegated to the female-part of it, as an object to be used for it. this is where we arent fully able to explore the world and gain real understanding of it. like a woman being sequestered to female-parts of the world, in general.

and i have to say, as far as “sexual intelligence” goes, that i learned early that it was dangerous to stop short of intercourse, with men, because i could be raped. that the threat of rape is lessened, when you engage in “consensual” PIV. it takes learning by experience, and a kind of sexual intelligence (from the female-perspective of an object of course), to come to that realization. and i did come to that realization, and i wasnt wrong. i just didnt get that not being sexual with men at all was the better way. maybe i thought it wasnt fair, or that it was indescribably sad. but when you are young, you tend to think of things in terms of how they SHOULD be, instead of how they ARE. behold the fun-fems!! this is their entire stock and trade.

43. calliope - February 21, 2011

FCM, what you said about your parents reminds me too of sex ed classes in elefuckingmentary school. I was in grade 6 when we were basically told that PIV is sex. given a book about sex that actually had as an illustration the “missionary” position, and being a survivor of sexual abuse it was pretty traumatic to see a man weighing down a woman and penetrating her as “your future!!!!!111”

I wouldn’t call myself lucky really because for me it was that early abuse & fear of men that kept me from even going near boys, long before I really knew I was a lesbian.

I can’t blame any woman for engaging in PIV, because from a young age we’re essentially brainwashed to see it as the apex of all life experience. I’m not proud of my “gold star,” I’m just relieved slightly because I didn’t have to go through what girls everywhere do

it’s gutting to see my best friends succumbing to it, and having no way to stop them

it’s gutting to see young girls groomed to see themselves as toys for douchebag men, and seeing them believe that’s “empowermenting”

I just ordered Quintessnce and I CAN’T WAIT to read it.

Ps – I have started a blog- though I can’t claim it’s any good yet


44. calliope - February 21, 2011

also FCM the talk about trauma bonding just made me think of something

from experience I know that from psychologists, psychs, counselors and therapists we women are told we must FORGIVE our abusers in order to recover. how damaging is that bullshit??

you’d never hear anyone talk of forgiving a murderer, or a terrorist, and rightly so. you can let it go eventually, learn to move past it and overcome what happened, but there is no obligation to forgive.

45. FAB Libber - February 21, 2011

*standing ovation* @ vegan primate

FCM: yesterday you asked for those reasons that some females avoid PIV from the start, and today I think you covered a lot of ground. There are no one or two factors, it is usually a combination of things, and the combination is not always the same. As calliope mentioned, she was not happy the way she earned her gold star, and I have known other GSLs that have earnt theirs that way too (sadly).

but when you are young, you tend to think of things in terms of how they SHOULD be, instead of how they ARE
Yes very true. I think that for many women, they know things aren’t right, but assume it’s them, or if they try harder, then it will work out. Persistence is a good quality, but it gets misdirected (and used against them in effect). A lot of the good qualities of females are actually used against them in patriarchy.

As for Sheila, obviously dissatisfied with the Gold Star. We will award you a Platinum one if you stop the het- and exhet-bashing.

With the ex-het bashing, it is exactly the sort of thing that puts off later-lesbians, so if you are trying to build numbers in Lesbian Nation, you are going the exact wrong way about it.

I also prefer the term later-lesbian over “ex-het” and always-lesbian over GSL/never-het, because they take all references to males out of the equation. Always a good thing.

FCM - February 21, 2011

i have a new graphic up at SCUM-O-RAMA. enjoy!


46. FemmeForever - February 21, 2011

we women are told we must FORGIVE our abusers in order to recover. how damaging is that bullshit??

YES. That shit pisses me off to oblivion. We must make very SURE that we absolve the male of any wrongdoing. Must let him restore his bullshit nice guy image. Must re-set our legitimately traumatized psyche so we can be sure to be available to the next sociopath and on and on until we are dead.


I am reminded of Bridget Gordon’s story. She was a young woman who had her life on the right track. She was a successful business woman happily earning a living and enjoying her success. She bought her own home in her twenties. She could fund any vacation she wanted. She had tremendous trust and favor with her company. In short, she was set for life and would never have had to worry about providing for herself for the rest of her life.

And then of course she got a little older into her early thirties and she thought it was time to start thinking about getting married. She met a guy, fell hard in love, and got married. He was a very successful guy in the entertainment industry. She had not dated much in her life, she was too focused on her career and had had very few sexual partners.

On her honeymoon her husband became very ill. They left the Caribbean. When they returned home she sent her husband to the doctor and he told her it was nothing. Just a bad flu. Then she became ill and went to HIS doctor because she was concerned it was the same problem and asked to be tested for everything. The tests came back that she was HIV-positive. Husband was retested, found positive, and she was told that SHE had given her husband the virus. He told his family that she had infected him.

When her brother heard this he said to ask hubby if he’s ever had relationships with men. He had. She questioned him about these relationships. It turned out he had an ongoing relationship with a man. Hubby was getting sicker, not better, because he refused to take the medication. He started verbally abusing his wife, calling her the c-word and other bad names. She decided she needed to find out who she was married to so she went into his email account and found countless emails soliciting gay sex with men. All kinds of gay fetishes. Seeking sex with married men and married men with HIV.

She divorced and sued him for $12 million for infecting her. He knew he was HIV+ before he ever met her. He didn’t care. Why would he? It’s not like she was a human being or anything. In the meantime she lost her career because the HIV cost her her stamina. She could no longer make it through a full work day. She won the lawsuit but he declared bankruptcy and she never saw any money. She went on welfare to survive.

She was admonished by a guest on the show she was on, another lying gay husband who also ruined his wife’s life, to FORGIVE that sociopath for what he did. FORGIVE HIM just like what he did was nothing.

Dutifully, she did forgive him and she went on to pair with another man and get pregnant. She still can’t work. She’s still struggling to survive. Bridget’s story ENRAGES me. A woman’s life is valueless in a world of men. The intensity of their hatred for us is oh so obvious.

But yet again the most important thing to take away from Bridget’s story is not that she should learn to have nothing to do with men ever again, NO, that would be too much like holding men accountable for their treachery against women. The most important thing is to make certain she doesn’t take herself off the PIV market and in so doing denying men her future servitude and also to make certain to validate the bullshit nice guy image by making it alright and even preferable to continue associating with men. God almighty, I WANT TO PUNCH SOMETHING.

We are expected to be willing, grinning participant’s in our own annihilation.

47. SheilaG - February 21, 2011

Hey, I lived in a city that had a huge public library system, thanks to German socialits. Every kid could get a library card. A library is available in my very poor LA neighborhood, and sometimes I go in late afternoons and smile at all the children in there reading and studying. Then I see all the kids on the streets not doing this.

So all of this is available. Platinum star…hmmm… I never liked the term gold star because it was too L-Word. I believe that straight women think themselves the norm, and I object to this, and why is it when I critique the very real straight oppression of lesbians, that this is called straight hating, when in fact this is exactly what straight men say about women who critique men. You can’t have it both ways.

I do believe in evolution, and I think there are a significant number of women worldwide who are evolving out of malesystem…. and this whole herstory of lesbian nation has taken a long time to emerge on a massive global scale.

So know,I don’t give into the idea that straight women are superior, and in fact, I often pity them.
To have sex with men… to subject the body to that…it’s a sad thing.

I will say maybe it was “lucky” that I didn’t have an sex education classes at all. They never taught them at any school I went to… all plain old public schools. So there was no het indocrination there. We never talked about sex at home either, and none of us kids dated anyone in high school or went to proms. So perhaps that asexual atmosphere was “lucky” for me.

I do believe the life long lesbians are biologically different. I know I never feel much of what other women feel…as they report a feeling at a given moment. For example, if a group of women says they feel cold in the office or in a room, I don’t feel this. It’s other things too. My mind just isn’t in straight world, and probably never was, and this was made all the easier because my town was so ordinary.

Sometimes never having any sexual education at all is an advantage, or perhaps I like to perceive many things as advantages that others do not. To be a lesbian is a supreme advantage.

48. veganprimate - February 21, 2011

FABLibber said: “Yes very true. I think that for many women, they know things aren’t right, but assume it’s them, or if they try harder, then it will work out.”

Yes, that’s the hallmark of civilization/patriarchy. It can’t let people catch on that the system is completely fucked, so it puts the onus of responsibility on the individual. No, marriage isn’t bad. It isn’t prostitution or slavery; it’s great. You just have to find the right person. No, you weren’t discriminated against. You just need to find someone to help you with your resume and interviewing skills.

I have figured out that the world is fucked. There are people older than me that are still clinging to the dominant paradigm. And there are people who figured out how fucked the world was at a younger age than I. My feelings are that the people who have figured it out should try to educate other people (within reason and I don’t expect someone to put herself in jeopardy, e.g. by getting fired or having a friend’s boyfriend/husband retaliate). What is not helpful is forming a hierarchy based on who figured it out sooner than whom and then insult the people for whom the lightbulb took longer to go off.

FCM - February 21, 2011

Hey, I lived in a city that had a huge public library system, thanks to German socialits. Every kid could get a library card. A library is available in my very poor LA neighborhood, and sometimes I go in late afternoons and smile at all the children in there reading and studying. Then I see all the kids on the streets not doing this.

So all of this is available.

newsflash sheila. not everyone grew up in the city.

i cannot believe you just said this. i really cant.

49. Sargassosea - February 21, 2011

“I do believe the life long lesbians are biologically different. I know I never feel much of what other women feel…as they report a feeling at a given moment. For example, if a group of women says they feel cold in the office or in a room, I don’t feel this. It’s other things too.”

Sheila, please! This is getting ridiculous.

50. rhondda - February 21, 2011

I have been reading Sheila Jeffreys’ The lesbian heresy; a feminist perspective on the lesbian sexual revolution. She uses the same exacting analysis as she does in The spinster and her enemies and Anticlimax. The sexologists got to the lesbians just as they did straight women. I am only on page 58, but am receiving an education I did not expect. I just mention it as it is pertinent to sexual intelligence.

FCM - February 21, 2011

i never thought i would have to use this in the comments section of my own damn blog…but i guess its appropriate:


i love you sheila, BUT DAMN. give me a fucking break!

FCM - February 21, 2011

i know you wear ties too. 😛 (yes i do love you! even though you are a super special snowflake, i do).

FCM - February 21, 2011

that ones on my shelf rhondda. i am looking forward to the education.

51. thebewilderness - February 21, 2011

I was 22 in 1968 and I’m sure if as you say I had just married well I would not have been one of those feminists in the streets that you watched on teevee who inspired you to stand on our backs and declare you did it all yourself by virtue of your greater vision and biological exceptionalism.

Happy to be of service.

52. Undercover Punk - February 22, 2011

rhondda, do you want to play Feminist Reading Group? Apparently, S4 and I both have just started reading “Radically Speaking” on our Kindles thanks to you! Can we all share notes and stuff? ❤

53. rhondda - February 22, 2011

I would love to play. UP

54. Rain - February 22, 2011

What do you want Sheila? Cookies? All I see is you insulting other women by blaming them in saying its all their own fault! No cookies from me.

I can understand the rage at the lack of acknowledgement from the het world, I have had my own issues with erasure of lesbian experience and herstory, the appropriation and stealing and hijacking of lesbian energy in feminism etc. I have had issues with ex-het lesbians dictating entitlement rules that GS’s should provide safe spaces and ‘sanctuary’ for all the women who have been damaged by patriarchy. Like they are fully entitled to take lesbian energy, and we should be playing nurse, playing mother, or as counsellors, and shoulders to cry on, for every other woman who got it worse than us. But I don’t layer contempt on such women, I don’t see it as their fault, and I don’t see it as oppression or privilege either. I see it as just some of the patriarchal ‘mindbindings’ that some women haven’t recognised or got clear of yet. I see it plenty in other lesbians too. I used to try and educate too, but now in my older age I let most of it go without comment, or am very circumspect, and choosy, about which women I might try to get across to, lesbian or not.

But I also see it as luck of circumstance too. As a friend of mine said, patriarchal brainwashing is like immunisation or enforced drug addiction. As girls we are all given regular ‘shots’, or ‘boosters’. Some of us are lucky, in missing more ‘doses’ than others, eg some of us are lucky to have supportive families who weren’t very rigid in enforcing it. Or the ‘shots’ — either they don’t work at all, or only work partially, or just stop working at some point, sooner in some, or later in others. Or some of us are lucky to have had access to various ‘antidotes’ from time to time, making the ‘shots’ less effective.

Just living in a western country with access to education makes you lucky. For example, Sheila with the bullying – did you have a safe home (or other safe space) to go to after school? Plenty of girls don’t, stuck between a rock and a hard-place with no safety anywhere. Sexual intelligence would dictate that you take the course with the highest chances of survival, and conformity/compliance might well be the most intelligent of options in some circumstances.

Did you have a teacher who supported your hard work with good grades? Were you in a school or college large enough to have other lesbian-girls you could relate to? Were you thrown out of home if/when coming out? Or did you wait until you were old enough, secure enough, independent enough before coming out? Were you lucky enough to meet other women in college or the workplace who were able to help you in your career when you were just starting out? Plenty of others don’t. Plenty of women don’t have the power or ability to help other women even if they wanted to, they barely get by, covering their own arses. The career world is also a pyramidal hierarchy under capitalism, and that means far more numbers of people, predominantly women, are going to be stuck at the bottom of the pyramid no matter how hard-working, strong, brave and determined they are.

As for lesbians being different, FFS Sheila – have you been living under a rock? Lesbians are just as diverse as any other group of people, most of them are not even feminist-lite or have any political consciousness, just like het-women. Some are Christian. Some vote Republican. Stome stay closeted and low-profile all their lives. Plenty promote butch-femme, BDSM and are fun-fems. There is such a thing as lesbian sexual & domestic violence and modelling on heteronormative relationships.

Some GS lesbians came to lesbianism long before they discovered any radical feminist consciousness, and are also shamed to admit that in their youth, they either treated partners like shit, or allowed their partners to treat them like shit.

I have a close friend, who is GS lesbian ‘butch’ who had identified that way all her life, and used to make remarks like “we butches care for and protect our women, for real – not like men pretend to”. The chivalrous one, the knight in shining armour, good-hearted, well-meaning, opening doors, taking out the garbage, being the main breadwinner, doing the tax returns, doing the heavy jobs around the house, garage and garden etc. In her 50s, I gave her Sheila Jeffrey’s “Unpacking Queer Politics” (well I had to keep reminding her) and it turned her head around. She even came to understand how much contempt she had for other women for most of her life. It took a lot of courage, strength for her to do that, and I admire her a great deal for it.

55. The Masked Lily - February 22, 2011

(I’m Calliope) FemmeForever – that story breaks my fucking heart. enraging indeed.

“We are expected to be willing, grinning participant’s in our own annihilation.” EXACTLY

“God almighty, I WANT TO PUNCH SOMETHING.” amen. I want to collectively punch these abusive men right out of orbit.

56. FAB Libber - February 22, 2011

Along the same lines as FemmeForever’s tragic story of the woman who married the HIV dude, here is another Prince Nigel that should be avoided:

This Prince Nigel did not get her adequate medical care, she was clearly malnourished and dehydrated, and he had a lovely time withdrawing money out of her account as she was dying.

57. FAB Libber - February 22, 2011

Or this Prince Nigel, plants a grenade in her car, she is pregnant and her son is in the car with her. Prince Nigel wanted to run off with a mistress.

“she doesn’t hate him”


58. veganprimate - February 22, 2011

I’d like to play Feminist Reading Group, too, UP, but I just plunked down a significant amount of my savings on van repairs…so…all unnecessary expenses have to be put on hold until I have another job assignment lined up. But I do have a Kindle and would love to participate at a later date.

59. Undercover Punk - February 22, 2011

Oh YAY, VP!! Sorry to hijack your thread, FCM. 😉 I just want to say that there is supposed to be a file-sharing software update for Kindle later this year (2011) that will allow us to SHARE BOOK FILES for, like, 2 weeks at a time. Like a LIBRARY. Just saying. Stay tuned. Love!! It’s the future.

FCM - February 22, 2011

shut up! scanning pages out of 30-year old books that i have written all over is the future. wait…no, thats MY future. i plan to do it again this weekend.

60. Undercover Punk - February 22, 2011

Dooooo it!! There’s a certain charm to your method, FCM, that the Kindle will never touch. I’m just an electronic documentation nerd. 😉

61. Loretta Kemsley - February 22, 2011

Shiela, I am an older het woman who has not lived with a man since the 1970s. That doesn’t mean I haven’t had affairs, just that I kept my home mine in every way.

I don’t identify with your presumed description of older het women at all. Just like het men trying to tell me what I should feel or think, you’re way off the mark. It feels as ugly as the stuff that men have thrown at me.

I don’t presume to know what your life as a lesbian is like. Why do you presume to think you know mine?

No, I do not look back at my youth and think I wasted it on het sex. What I wasted was time with abusive people, both male and female. No, I don’t hate the touch of a man if he’s invited into my life. I hate the male culture that victimizes both men and women.

I adored my father. It’s been eighteen years since he died and I miss him still. I still miss the only man I ever loved. I do not regret knowing either of them. I do not regret other men who I cared about less. They were still a good part of my life.

Are there men who’s touch I shudder to think about? Yep. There’s also women I would not want to touch me. Not even with a hug.

There are things I’m conflicted about and sometimes what you write helps clarify some of those mixed feelings, at least to the extent that they give me a better handle on what’s bugging me.

All I ask is that my life, intelligence and feelings be respected in the same way I respect yours.

62. veganprimate - February 22, 2011

“scanning pages out of 30-year old books that i have written all over is the future.”

Bwaha! For some reason, that hit my funny bone particularly well.

63. cherryblossom - February 22, 2011

What I learned was that men know shit about sex compared to boys. One reason for this is obviously porn culture (advertisments, mags). The more a male has been exposed to, the less he knows about women’s sexuality. And the other is masculine culture. It seems to me that males *unlearn* everything they inherently know about empathy, about women’s bodies as they age.

I think women have got two choices: either become sexually active early on in life (13/14/15) with boys of the same age, or, if they miss that window, wait until they’re at least 26 or so when their personality has developed somewhat.

I became sexually active *without* PIV at about 14 and for various reasons the boys I messed around with did not expect PIV, or even ask for it. They were grateful to be with a girl. I had the time of my life, and so did my friends.
When we hit 16 which is the legal age for sex, things became a bit tricky and the pressure started. BOys were under pressure from friends and probably from fathers too. And it all went downhill after that.

But who knows if that window even exists anymore. Boys are exposed to porn at ever earlier ages, and culture is more pornified than ever. Maybe today’s boys expect PIV as soon as they hit puberty.

FCM - February 22, 2011

That’s an interesting point cherryblossom. I hadn’t thought about it like that before, although I remember clearly that I enjoyed my sexuality more as a young teenager (with boys about the same age) than I ever did after that. Surely the window is very small now, as you say. I cannot even imagine having piv as a 12 year old, with a boy around the same age who’s been saturated by porn. And believing that was “sex”. It’s fucking horrifying to think about isn’t it?

FCM - February 22, 2011

Also, does this post make sense? I noticed most comments aren’t addressing it. It wasnt the easiest post to write, as its really just the introductory point in right wing women, and I haven’t read even half the book yet. But I thought it was an excellent point, and that it was utter genius of her to address the politics of intelligence immediately, since liberals like to judge rww for being stupid, or ignorant. Sarah palin is the perfect example of this.

As rain mentions, Dworkins larger point (as I understand it as well, without having read it all) was that right wing women AREN’T fucking stupid, and that their sexual compliance is actually a very deliberate strategy to survive, under patriarchy. And its no “stupider” than what liberal women do, with their piv compliance and multiple partners, which is also sexual compliance, and also a survival strategy.

But the politics of intelligence is key. It really is.

64. cherryblossom - February 22, 2011

It is horrifying, and sad.

65. cherryblossom - February 22, 2011

yes the post makes perfect sense. I’m going to buy the book.
If PIV is all you’ve ever known sex to be, and you were “caught” by it before you had a chance to reach some understanding of sex on your own, then questioning the status quo is going to lead to a life of misery. And sexual intelligence is revolutionary because, contrary to how culture tells it, it’s women, not men who have sexual potency. Men’s sexual potency is very very finite. The clitoris is the only *human* organ designed specifically for sexual pleasure. It *must* be contained for patriarchy to survive and vice versa.
That’s what the FGM is all about.

66. cherryblossom - February 22, 2011

And right-wing women play the stupid card to survive. Well, we all do what we can to survive. ANd if female intelligence and questioning is punished then the logical thing to do is to hide it.

67. maggie - February 22, 2011

@cherryblossom, I too enjoyed sex without PIV in my teen years. All I had to think about was someone touching me (lips, skin, jumper!) and I’d be highly charged. And it was wonderful those furtive glances, the freedom was liberating. The bubble burst when PIV asserted its dominence in my sexual milieu.

@FCM this has been one of your best posts yet. I’ve just put in an order for Right Wing Women and Intercourse. Dworkin has been much maligned but of the bits I’ve been able to read, she is an excellent writer.

This is a sad little ‘review’ of Right Wing Woman by a woman (we have to take her word for it) Marion Bradley ‘High School Teacher’ from a m a z o n . c o m.

“I very much wanted to like this book, but it was so undisciplined! Andrea does not pay enough attention to the facts, and she lets her emotions run her life for her. I think she should have paid more attention to her teachers in school.”

Apart from the sadness that Marion is teaching impressionable young people her review demonstrates exactly what Dworkin was saying. The irony of her review may well have been lost on Marion, let’s hope she’s not teaching English.

68. Jilla - February 22, 2011

Reclusive Leftist has some interesting posts on right-wing women which came about during her defense of RW women being pilloried by the progressive left aka male left) using her sex, not her political stance. VS acknowledges RW women in her family, and mentions several ways they are admirable, characterizing them as something like “equal pay for equal work” feminists. She talks about several ways they are admirable. And not. But still, they are women and deserve our support in ways that we can. It was over at RL that I first read the idea of voting for women to get a representative population in politics being what would change politics. It made sense to me. (My words summarizing what I got from Vi’s posts). The voting strategy makes perfect sense to me. How many years did I vote for left wing male jerks who don’t come through, ride to MP or MLA on the hopes and work of thousands of women. If a RW woman is the only woman on the ticket, she’s getting my vote.

69. Jilla - February 22, 2011

Maggie and cherry blossom I third your early teen expericnes. Not so long ago I returned to those “heavy petting” thrills with an internet sexual relationship. No worries about PIV there. And men think it was invented for them. Har.

As a slight tangent here I’m going to tell you about the first time I orgasmed. Never with PIV I assure you.

I was about 27, housebound in the high Arctic, doing my laundry with one of those Hoover hook-up-to the tap washing machines. They were really unstable when they hit the spin cycle, so partly to hold it down, and partly to stare out the window wishing I was anywhere else, I leaned into it heavily. I didn’t know what was happening. We ran it off the generator though so I couldn’t wash clothes as often as *necessary*.

70. rhondda - February 22, 2011

That is interesting Jilla about only voting for women. I have heard that too. My question is though if the only woman on the ballot was a let’s say a fascist who recommended rounding up certain classes of people, would you vote for her?

71. Jilla - February 22, 2011

Always the worst case scenario eh? Maybe we should wait until we get there, before we characterize it this way.

But since most of the rest would be male fascists who would do that or it’s equivalent, especially for my racial group, I have to admit it would be a tough call. There have been times I have not voted.

72. Loretta Kemsley - February 22, 2011

I’ve always voted for women whenever I can. I get pillioried for it. “You can’t vote for her just because she’s a woman.” Why not? The entire country has been voting for men just because they’re men for centuries.

FCM, this essay spoke volumes to me. I grew up in an era when intelligent women definitely weren’t wanted. My high school counselor — a woman — told me that truly smart women pretended they were dumb so they could get a husband. She also made it clear college was out because I was female — despite the fact my IQ is 149.

I’ve talked to other MENSA eligible women who ran into the same. Hurts very, very, very deep not only to not be recognized but made fun of because you’re smart, something that boys never face because smart boys are wanted in this world. I still get men who try to beat me up emotionally because I’m smarter than them and people (including women) who mock me if I dare to mention my IQ or allude to being smarter than average. The reality is my IQ is above all but 1% of the populaiton, but wow, the hatred that inspires. My violent ex even used it as an excuse for his violence. “You always have to use five dollar words.” Say what? I spoke that way when I met him. Do you see any five dollar words in this post? I don’t — and that’s the way I talk too.

So your post really spoke loud to me. I was going to post all of this and then read the comments and left because it was so disheartening to hear my Self being mocked and put down because I’m het.

As to sexual intelligence, yes, that is what we need to discuss loud and clear. Louder, louder, louder until people, especially girls, can hear us. But screaming they don’t dare be het isn’t going to get it. That isn’t reality. I’m not unusual when I say I was never attracted to other women. What I needed was a real way to know how to cope with boys — and boys who treated me like I was real.

73. Radically Speaking by Renate Klein and Diane Bell | Feminist Reading Group - February 22, 2011

[…] Speaking by Renate Klein and Diane Bell At the suggestion of rhondda, I have just begun reading Radically Speaking on my Kindle. As such, I have also been tweeting some […]

FCM - February 22, 2011

I am sorry you didn’t feel you could post your comment earlier loretta. I agree that this thread has been hijacked. What the hell is wrong with people and the derails lately? Ffs. I’m not a fucking babysitter people. Let’s try to stay on topic mkay? Thanks.

74. Loretta Kemsley - February 22, 2011

Jilla, I’ve heard that before about unruly washers. Never tried it myself but found it true in other situations. Ever rode a tilt a whirl?

Rhondda, women are no more extreme than men, so that’s an unlikely scenario. What’s real is that women’s lifes experiences are different and their concerns, no matter which party, most closely mirror my own. Experience has shown that women in both parties get together in a women’s caucus and vote very similar on most women’s issues and many other issues that aren’t considered women’s issues.

75. Jilla - February 22, 2011

“Click” Loretta. I have looked at the rosters for a couple elections since I determined I’d only vote for women, and yes there *were* right-wing women there, but no “fascists”. It’s maybe a little less sensitive here for abortion because it is covered (if you don’t live 1,000 km from a place and can get to the provider) so I have not seen any woman who I would say is right-wing who could really threaten that, no matter her stance. Now our prime minister is one by one defunding women’s initiatives, but it’s not going unchallenged by women. I know several RW American women who I converse with in a different context, and they often say things that make my hair stand on end, until I tell them about my political stance, formally and for women. They usually don’t mention their views on woman again, but return to be very civil and co-operative goal-directed co-workers. I can tell they are dismissing me as “one of those communists north or the border”. (I make sure they know I don’t admire Obama, as they do not, but my reasons are different and I tell them why. Usually, they’ve never heard that before, about his women-hate-on).

76. Loretta Kemsley - February 22, 2011

FCM, I have to wonder if I’m the only one who needed to leave.

Your post sparked many memories that I’m not going to write here. They’re important to me so I will write about them, but I don’t think it would serve any useful purpose to list them all here.

Sexual intelligence is what we’ve been talking about, without having a name for it, when we talk about the need for women to define and control their own sexuality. Been doing it for years, as you know, and attracting some very dumb remarks from men because of it. But the women get it. First, they feel the need to rage about the deceptions, then they get down to discussing business. But too often, the menz chime in and disrupt the conversation, even when they think they’re helping.

77. Loretta Kemsley - February 22, 2011

Jilla, I agree. We should vote for women on both sides of the aisle. If we’re not ready to believe in women, then who will? Things won’t change until women are elected in the same percentage as we exist in the population.

Even well intentioned men don’t live the daily experience of all women. They haven’t a clue about what concerns us most because it isn’t part of their world on any given day. So our most important issues will continue to fly under the radar unless women are elected in large numbers.

Abortion and other similar issues are only devisive because men make them so. It’s just another way to control women, both in the ballot box and in the bedroom.

But we’re off topic with this, so let’s get back on topic like FCM asked.

78. Jilla - February 22, 2011

I’d like to point out that “intelligence” AD wrote about is not the norm in the world. I find feminist blogs difficult to chip my way into, because I’m not a middle or upper-middle class white woman who grew up in an urban setting with the expectation that I would go to higher education. The women in feminist blogs are by and large my clan, but not. (I’d be called a wannabe by women of my culture for hanging with you.)

There is female intelligence that even Andrea Dworkin would not recognize. American, urban, white, middle-class educated women 20 to 40 are the majority on feminist blogs. Leaving out age, they are the minority in the world. My “sexual intelligence” and that of MANY like me is different from yours. The creative arts? As AD lists them, they didn’t exist in my life until I was in my 40s. No one counts sewing (which I didn’t do anyway) but sewing, decorating and cooking are the arts that were practised with pride by women of my culture and generation. I’m not quite sure how my “sexual intelligence” differs from what AD had in mind, but I know it does. I use myself as example here, but I’m not really talking about me. What are you who post and read here, about 2 percent of the female population? I’m not saying that as a slur, just saying. Like I said, you’re my clan, whether you like it or not.

79. Loretta Kemsley - February 22, 2011

I’ve always counted sewing and other “home” crafts as art. I grew up with them as a means of decorating ourselves and our homes, so why shouldn’t I think of them as my way of being artistic?

As to who I am, yes, I’m white. I suppose most would classify me as middle class now, but that isn’t the way I think of myself. I grew up without awareness of financial class for the most part. But my family wouldn’t have been considered middle class back then. I never heard that word until I was about thirty. We scrabbled our way through life, working hard (all of us) to have enough, but I was never faced with homelessness, so how to classify that? Looking back, not everyone in our neighborhood did, but I wasn’t aware of any differences back then. We were all just neighbors.

I also went through many years of extreme poverty because of the injuries inflicted by my violent ex. Feminists became part of my life because of him, not because they were a certain race or financial class.

We make a mistake when we try to divvy up feminism. What makes one woman freer will make other women freer. Do we all have the same problems? Of course not. We’d be the worse off if we were clones. But we’re all women who suffer under patriarchy. Divvying up by class is just another form that patriarchy takes and uses successfully to keep beating down “the other” (meaning us).

I’m sure non-white women suffer in ways I don’t. Like men who don’t experience wome’s reality, I can’t experience non-white women’s reality. But I can listen, learn and try to help. International feminists do this all the time. We let the women on the ground in any given country tell us what they need. Do we know their lived experience? No, but we can apply pressure from the outside to help. We can do the same with whatever differences we experience even when we’re in the same country.

As you say, we’re all clan members. It would behoove us to act in the best interests of our clan.

80. yesindeed - February 22, 2011

Great post, and yes, it makes perfect sense. (I too had to duck out briefly because of the derail.)

The game is rigged so that any early signs of sexual intelligence are quashed or browbeaten out of you.

Long before engaging in PIV myself, I was well aware that the vast majority of women do not get any pleasure from it. I remember thinking that, in light of this, the societal obsession with “sex” seemed awfully unfair and one-sided, didn’t it? This thought never saw the light of day, though — I was just a “prude” and a “virgin”, after all — and I secretly hoped that I would be one of the so-called “lucky ones” who could orgasm through intercourse. (I wasn’t.)

Similarly, I was always deeply uncomfortable with porn. But after being exposed to enough malestream brainwashing and third-wave choice n’ agency babble, I got the message that I needed to suppress my revulsion. I went through a period of “accepting it” and even professing pro-porn sentiments. So of course I was completely and utterly helpless and unprepared when I “happened to” (scare quotes because as FCM always says, there’s nothing accidental about any of this) fall prey to an abusive pornsick weasel. Yes, funfeminism really is hazardous to your health.

FCM - February 22, 2011

Jilla, I think there are 2 parts to “intelligence” and that Dworkin addresses both. The things that women know AS WOMEN, or come to know through learning as women under patriarchy, are routinely dismissed by men, and by the P as being unimportant, and not intelligence. This is because men have defined what intelligence means, and it is male-centric by definition. What THEY mean when they talk about intelligence is what is learned by experiencing the entire world, as free autonomous beings. They sequester women, and then say we aren’t “intelligent” like they are. Well duh.

Then, what women come to know AS experienced beings in the world, to the extent they may be able, we aren’t able to express because its not ladylike. And a man could say the exact same thing and be seen as intelligent, but a woman is presumed to be stupid, because of her sex. Even if the information is the same.

I don’t think she is saying what you attribute to her. What do other people think?

81. Loretta Kemsley - February 22, 2011

There are several ways to be intelligent. Gardner listed nine of them, but I find them incomplete in that he did not include intuition and other ways I relate to the world. Here’s a short synopsis of his “intelligences.”

Gardner’s Nine Types of Intelligence.

He also doesn’t address sexual intelligence. Perhaps we need to name the various ways women own and express our intelligence.

But yes, women are presumed to be stupid because of our sex. I have men talk down to me all the time even though I am far more intelligent and learned then they could ever hope to be — and they take it as their right to do so, even to the point of claiming there is something wrong with me because I won’t “take their counsel.”

That’s what is hardest for me: to be invisible because of my sex instead of my ideas. I even have men tell me how wrong I am, then turn around and repeat my ideas back to me as if they are their own….and they are going to “explain” them to me so I can “understand and learn.”

82. rhondda - February 22, 2011

I think Jilla is talking about that wild joy one has when one realizes that you don’t need a man. That joy is expressed in the creativity of arts and crafts. I may be wrong.
Thank you Jilla for considering me belonging to your clan.

FCM - February 22, 2011

But I don’t think Dworkin was attempting to list all the different kinds of intelligence. She very specifically dissects the POLITICS of intelligence, which is what I explained in my last comment. The politics of intelligence probably apply to all nine (or whatever) kinds of intelligence. Sexual intelligence was mentioned as a KIND of intelligence, upon which these politics operate. Women are sequestered, and relegated to the female-only spaces and the female perspective as object, victim, receptacle, whatever. THEN we are presumed to be stupid, to whatever extent we are able to “know” like men. Both ways, we lose.

It would be interesting to address how these politics operate on the other kinds of intelligence. If the theory is sound, it would probably work.

83. Loretta Kemsley - February 22, 2011

Okay, I wasn’t thinking politically but personally.

Women have been so despised for so many millenia that it’s hard for women to separate their authentic Self from the centuries of manure heaped upon them.

Even the idea that women are for having babies seems not to feel foreign for too many women. That is one of our capablities, but it is not “what we’re for.” Neither is sexual opposite to men.

I’ve heard women argue that “women” as a category does not exist except as a mirror image of “men.” These were women thinking they were claiming the goddess concept, thus helping women. They could not understand why I was adamant that we are women whether or not men exist at all, that we should not settle for looking through the cracks to find our Selves.

I rather like the idea of the disembodied Cyber Self for becoming free from body discrimination. However, it has not worked out from a practical POV because most people are too invested in their bodies to be able to separate Self from body.

Who are we if we were without body? That’s the essence of us. Unfortunately, we are not allowed to be our essence because we are too ???? what I cannot put into words, but obviously we are too something or there would not be such a need to oppress us.

I have to think the ???? is what AD was trying to express, the basis for her arguments. How we understand our ???? is going to affect how we understand her concepts. Some of us are so used to running from our ???? that we need to run from her ideas too.

84. maggie - February 22, 2011

Het sex alert!!! Well I orgasmed through intercourse, cried (shamefully now looking back on it) as if this was the sexual pinacle, the one that I was waiting for all my life. And it wasn’t. I’m not one of the ‘lucky ones’. I’ve had ‘PIV sex’ that resulted in either simultaniety in one position or simultaniety in another position. Always I felt uncomfortabale with the both except the person whom I spent 18 years with, and had children with, who said face to face PIV with orgasm was the one – me on top. Nasty bastard he turned out to be.

Can we trust men? Sexual intelligence screams to me that with this sort of behaviour the answer has to be no.

85. maggie - February 22, 2011

And I knew this as a teenager. Why did I carry on? Discuss.

86. Loretta Kemsley - February 22, 2011

Bodily-Kinesthetic Intelligence (“Body Smart”)

Bodily kinesthetic intelligence is the capacity to manipulate objects and use a variety of physical skills. This intelligence also involves a sense of timing and the perfection of skills through mind–body union. Athletes, dancers, surgeons, and craftspeople exhibit well-developed bodily kinesthetic intelligence.

This is one that women are denied from the time they are born. There are so many “don’ts” and then there are the artifical “do’s” like “ugly without make-up” routines.

This is definitely a political hostage taking when it comes to women.

87. Jilla - February 22, 2011

I’m not denying the truth of what she’s said or what any of you are saying. It’s all parts of a whole.

Thanks for letting me speak, and hearing me.

88. Loretta Kemsley - February 22, 2011

You carried on because you were told this was sex. We need to define sex from our POV and forget the male definition. But he too was brainwashed. He too was taught this is sex. Think about the pre-Victorian era where both sexes were supposed to have sex through a small slit in their nightclothes and weren’t expected to enjoy it.

The entire religious “sex is for procreation only” set us up for rape in our marriage bed. I say rape because no woman wants to “endure” sex. She wants to enjoy it. But the default “theory” now is if a woman doesn’t enjoy sex, then she’s frigid, somethings wrong with her that she must fix.

Which is nonsense. If she isn’t enjoying it, she has a valid reason. That reason might be different for each of us, depending upon circumstance, but they are all valid.

The first valid reason is reality: women’s sexual pleasure comes from the clitoris. Even those who have vaginal orgasm aren’t getting it because of the vagina (which is mostly numb) but from the clitoral root which is long and extends on both sides of the vagina.

So clitoral stimulation is our norm for pleasure, as any sex toy company can tell you, while PIV is may or may not be pleasurable. Women need to define sex around their clitoris and call the rest something other than the main event.

89. maggie - February 22, 2011

having said all that I’ve given birth to a nigel whom I adore. Manchild. Please tell me how to proceed? i’ve already told him that men can get pregnant as well. Men have babies. In riposte to his nine year old surmation that only women give birth. And he was visibly shocked by my answer what more can I do? Except expose the virutues of initial urges and go with them.

90. Sargassosea - February 22, 2011

The combination of moral intelligence sexual intelligence (as I take AD to mean them) together would be an unmovable force. An unmovable force that must be stopped at all cost, evidently.

We already know that women have moral intelligence. It is in fact one of our greatest assets, never mind that it’s routinely used against us. Women know that some stuff is just WRONG, like pornography and war and pedophilia, etc. because they are the primary victims of these man-made disasters. Not all are aware of it on a conscious level but, as we see here, some women realize and/or admit later in life that they *knew* these things were wrong all along and that it was their experience being women that opened their eyes to it. WRONG, thy name art Oppression.

Add to morality a lifetime of true physical sovereignty (like men have, at the very least) and you have achieved a full human being; a being who knows that the right to full bodily sovereignty is exactly that, RIGHT and nothing less. RIGHT, thy name art Freedom.

91. Loretta Kemsley - February 22, 2011

Maggie, have you studied sacred sexuality? That’s what I’m teaching my grandson. There is also an ancient movement of white tantric sex that deemphasizes orgasm as a goal. Red tantric is good too in that a woman’s pleasure is the goal. If she doesn’t experience pleasure and/or orgasm, the man is a failure.

That’s as close as I’ve come to what we should be experiencing and what we can experience. I know because the man I loved knew how to make my body sing in myriad ways.

I’ve also made it a point to discuss sexual things openly — except those things he hears at school and in the media that are female putdowns. We discuss them but as something he needs to avoid if he wasn’t a successful relationship. I have several books on sexuality that he’s been free to read since he was small. There’s no mystery about it in my home, which is how too many youngsters get into trouble in the first place.

92. Loretta Kemsley - February 22, 2011

Oops, should be “wants a sexual relationship.” “Wasn’t” just doesn’t do the trick. LOL.

93. Loretta Kemsley - February 22, 2011

Has anyone read:

This Sex Which Is Not One

Great discussion of male sexual language and how it confines women. Also how women are vastly different than the available words can express.

94. Loretta Kemsley - February 22, 2011

Wow. that came out strange.

95. rhondda - February 22, 2011

Luce Irigaray is into femininity.
The radical feminist Somer Brodribb talks about her and the other so-called French Feminists in Nothing Mat(t)ers.

96. Loretta Kemsley - February 22, 2011

Here’s a page that discusses her theories in more depth than I can. I don’t discard feminist thought because someone puts a label upon it. We need to transcend labels and consider the ideas.

Considering them does not mean agreeing with them. Some of my most profound progress has been because of understanding ideas I disagree with so strongly they feel like psychological violence. If we are afraid to go to the end of our thoughts, then we remain in prison.

From the Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy’s page on her (which is quite long and worth the read)


While the goal of mimesis is to problematize the male definition of femininity to such a degree that a new definition of and, ultimately, an embodied subject position for women can emerge, Irigaray says in her earlier work that she will not prescribe in advance either the definition or the subject position. In This Sex Which Is Not One, Irigaray clearly indicates that she will not redefine femininity because it would interfere with women redefining themselves for themselves. Further, she believes that she cannot describe the feminine (e.g. female subjectivity, the female imaginary body) outside of the current, male definitions without further disrupting the male definitions of women. A new definition for women has to emerge out of a mimetic engagement with the old definitions, and it is a collective process.

Irigaray is, however, willing to provide material to help ignite the process of redefinition. The material she offers varies from new concepts about religion and bodies-expressed through both the novel use of existing words and the creation of new words-to utopian ideals

97. rhondda - February 23, 2011

So you like post modernism? — Confusing the reality with a mystical renaming. Yes, very seductive. Sort of like a Gothic novel. Just where is the political in this and where is the change of behaviour of men? I told my sons that they needed to listen to their girlfriends and not be a jerk. But, they are very influenced by the males who like their sexual jokes and role playing at being the nice feminist friend. Female subjectivity is not going to change male behaviour. Male bonding is not going away by that and it is that the male bonding against women that is the problem because there are so many rewards to do so for men. Love for men is sex and sex is PIV. Period. Whatever else they give women is called a cock tax and they complain about it. They still have all the dominant power.
Plus they laugh at us. No thank you.

98. Loretta Kemsley - February 23, 2011

Will ignoring ideas make men change? If so, how? I’ve never seen anyone change until they are ready to change, but I’m willing to listen to your thoughts on this.

But I don’t depend upon them to change. I cannot. I can only change myself. I do this with extensive reading and the infusion of ideas. I don’t like Freud, but I read his work. If we’re to have progress, we have to do it from a depth of knowledge.

One of the things i’ve seen decried here is that women today don’t understand the history of feminism. In other words, they lack a depth of knowledge. How does limiting our own body of knowledge help that situation?

The fundamentalists only read or watch what they a absolutely agree with. Because of that, they limit what they understand. I don’t want to be one of them. I want to know enough to push back against them.

So cling to labels if you wish. I’ll cling to knoweledge and considering ideas I’ve sifted through. Whether or not I agree or disagree I cannot determine what I think about them by refusing to look at them at all.

FCM - February 23, 2011

Yes, I am immediately suspicious of all the definition talk too. Redefining “woman” hasn’t led to good places. But on the sex-pos equation post, I recall that the men posting there couldn’t even name a female-specific harm of piv. They couldn’t fucking do it. I concluded that it was because they were unable to grasp the meaning of FEMALE.

Men have defined woman to mean everything except what we are. Adult humans, female variety. They obviously think woman/female means…victim, receptacle, helpmate, fuckdoll…one of the guys…or even “equal.” But that’s not what female MEANS. It means born with the reproductive organs of a female. They literally don’t get it. Read the discussion on that post if you are unsure. It’s fucking stunning.

I think we do need to do something about the way we have been defined, by men. Who can’t even tell you what female means, and how we might be harmed in a specifically female way, by the penis. Duh!

99. Loretta Kemsley - February 23, 2011

I agree. We need not only to do something about it, but we need to do it in such a way that people can have a real understanding of what we’re talking about. We need words and concepts they identify with to do that. I don’t know any other way.

Most men don’t care what female means as long as anyone female is available in the way they want. How do we make them care? I’ve never figured that out. But underneath that “I don’t care” attitude is someone who might care if we could communicate why they should care. They aren’t going to learn a new language in order to do that, so we need their definitions as a starting place and try to move forward from there.

We also have to realize this is the same language most women understand. We cannot force women to be freer than they understand themselves to be. We need to be able to show them how changing the way they think will help.

I guess I’m just not for trying to overthrow the world culture by ignoring how to talk about the worst parts of it or by leaving behind the majority of people who make up that culture.

I’m not even sure how to do that.

100. rhondda - February 23, 2011

I am not sure what you mean Loretta by ‘ignoring ideas will make men change’ What ideas? I am not ignoring women’s subjectivity. I think that is what we have to go for and the only way men will understand is to turn our backs on what they say we are. Women have too long been very accommodating to try and explain to those whom we love what we mean.
Here is an example from my real life. My x brother in law who is a fucking biologist said to me that birth was like evicting a huge turd. Hello no it isn’t. He has no uterus. He has no vagina and it is not like a fucking bowel movement. There is no comparison. Yet, this is how men see it and fuck shit, women accept this description as if it is real because men have to describe it in their terms. This is what I mean about women’s subjectivity is not male. Women touching women is not a fetish of touching the mother’s body as it it for men. (Freud) It is totally different from men and they have decided it is very very bad, because they want to control women’s sexuality.

101. Loretta Kemsley - February 23, 2011

Okay, so how do you propose to change that male idea of what birth is and the minds of women who don’t give it serious thought?

FCM - February 23, 2011

Most men don’t care what female means as long as anyone female is available in the way they want. How do we make them care? I’ve never figured that out. But underneath that “I don’t care” attitude is someone who might care if we could communicate why they should care.

see, i just dont think they are worth it. they SHOULD care because women are human beings who feel pain and have dreams and are someones children and perhaps someones mother. do we seriously have to tell them this? if we have to tell them this its because the dont WANT to know it (or they already would) and if they dont WANT to know it, they can go fuck themselves. this disgusts me.

i think they are going to have to learn this shit the hard way. they can read here if they want to, but i am not writing for them, and i dont give a fuck what they think. the conversations here are some of the best i have read, anywhere, and i really think that its because men are not allowed, and because we arent talking to, for, or about MEN. and i am not going to ruin what this place has become, so that we can attempt to educate men, just so i can be blamed when they deliberately misunderstand.

102. Loretta Kemsley - February 23, 2011

I agree again. We shouldn’t have to explain any of this to them. But how do we keep making progress if we don’t give women the tools to explain it? Because women do have men in their lives. Not just lovers, but bosses, friends, fathers, brothers, sons, etc.

We have to realize that women need to understand a new paradigm. How do we teach them that new paradigm if we can’t talk about the old one in ways they understand? That’s using male definitions because there is little or nothing else.

Like sex isn’t PIV. How do we explain that to women if we don’t acknowledge that PIV is the male centric concept of sex but its time for a female centric one?

To use AD and right wing women, she didn’t eliminate those male centric concepts. She learned them in depth so she could explain them. That’s what I try to do: understand so I can explain.

FCM - February 23, 2011

ok, but i dont think women need “tools to explain” this stuff to the men in their lives. because its not going to work. there IS NO TOOL for this job, because this job is impossible.

the paradigm-shifting stuff MIGHT be for women, who are financially able to do it, or perhaps the very young women who arent partnered yet, to tell their nigels/potential nigels that “this is how its going to be, because i said so, and if you dont like it you can leave.” stopping short of intercourse, of course, is probably going to increase their chances of getting raped. so perhaps part of non-PIV centric sex will be not being alone with a man, ever. well…NO MAN ALIVE IS GOING TO UNDERSTAND THIS, or agree to it willingly. so “explaining” it to them may as well not even be a goal. figuring out how to do it successfully without getting fucking raped, would be where i would want to focus my energy. because i have no idea how this would even work. do you?

103. rhondda - February 23, 2011

It is not my job to change men’s minds anymore. I am through with that. My job, if it is a job, is to get women to fucking let them go and get women to see how powerful and awesome we really are. That life is much more important than status and money and all men’s fucking theories and their patriarchal female parrots can go fuck themselves with them. Do you know that phyllis Schlafly, the right women who opposed the equal rights amendment has just written a pomo book about marriage and why the left is wrong? Does anyone here think pomo really is left wing? It is total propaganda. Both sides of the political equation are using women. And in Canada, where I live every goddamn political women in office is on her knees before a male overlord.

104. Loretta Kemsley - February 23, 2011

If I had the answers, I’d wouldn’t be wandering around wishing I understood more about why our progress has taken a detour.

So we aim at the younger women. I agree. But how do we get them to the point you describe? They’ve already absorbed the male-centric ideas, so we have to turn them. How do we do that without discussing the male-centric ideas and then presenting an alternative?

If there is a way, I’d love to know it.

105. rhondda - February 23, 2011

Well. Loretta, this blog has got to be one of the ways. Absolutely FCM has made her mark. For the rest of us, it is to send women here. It has got to be a realization for each individual woman. That is what is so hard. The history is there. One has to look for it. Already, if you are observant young woman are coming here. FCM is not preaching. She is showing. The thing about feminism is that the PERSONAL IS POLITICAL is key. It is not easy like pomo, but hard work. Who wants to do that unless you have reached the end of your rope. Then thinking becomes your passion, not men.

FCM - February 23, 2011

Then thinking becomes your passion, not men.


106. Loretta Kemsley - February 23, 2011

Okay, but haven’t people been complaining on this thread that young girls get caught up and entrapped before realizing what’s happening?

Since that’s true, isn’t you conclusion leaving them to that fate rather than trying to head it off?

107. Loretta Kemsley - February 23, 2011

Afterthought: before I got to the point of knowing how bad I needed help (escaping a violent man), I would not have found this blog (if it existed back then).

I would hope that isn’t true for the majority of girls today. But I’m afraid it might be. I used to run a training stable for show horses. Part of my goal then was to give girls an alternative to thinking about boys. It worked well. If a girl wants to be a show ring winner, she doesn’t have a lot of time left over on the weekends.

But while that kept them from having the time, it didn’t give them a philosophical, religious or political perspective that they so desperately need to know. It didn’t even give them strategies for dealing with the creeps.

That’s what I’d like to figure out how to provide to them — before they get trapped.

But perhaps that’s a losing proposition. Perhaps they need to get to that point of desperation before they’ll be able to appreciate things like we talk about here.

108. cherryblossom - February 23, 2011

I read the post to mean that society’s worldivew is the male viewpoint and that wOmen have to fit their thoughts into it like a square peg into a round hole. Those who manage to do this succeed in life.
A female writer whose work is laced with misogyny will succeed. A female writer who writes intelligently about women’s worldview i.e the truth, will always, always be denigrated. As we have seen with Dworkin. As a general rule of thumb, the more a woman is maligned and despised by society, the closer her writing is to the truth, and the more intelligent she is.
Who wants to be despised?
Men are hailed as geniuses for pointing out the obvious, and the women who are true geniuses are silenced. That’s how scared they are of womens’ intelligence.

So because men own public spaces and public thought, women’s truth is denied. Then women also begin to believe they are stupid, and collaborate with the patriarchy by denying their own truths, their own bodily and intellectual truths.
Imagine what would happen if women listened to their sexual intelligence. They would not have PIV, they would refuse. they would refuse to sleep with a man who had ever watched porn and believed it was sex. If they found their lover to be unsatisfactory they might move on. This could lead to another patriarchal nightmare: we would return to a time when women would be the only ones to know the paternity of a child.

The interweb will do a lot for women’s liberation. It’s not a coincidence that all patriarchies have strived to keep women apart.

109. cherryblossom - February 23, 2011

I mean, it was feminists who first realised and articulated that gender and sex were not the same. Rather than being given their place in history as theorists, what we actually have is signs that the patriarchy’s “great thinkers” appear not to even GET it. The simply don’t UNDERSTAND the concept. Or they do understand and are being obtuse. But I believe it’s the former.

110. cherryblossom - February 23, 2011

I also agree with the people who said you can’t attempt to reframe feminist debate in terms that men will understand. It won’t work. They can’t hear. One of my favourite Chinese proverbs is “When the pupil is ready, the teacher will appear”. If they “can’t see it” then, in FCM’s words, fuck them.
On a slightly related note, I often wonder whether all men are in fact homosexual. All of them. Reading SheilaGs description of how she loves her partner really struck home to me how little men love women. I want to be loved the way that women love. Men are so lucky to have womens’ love. And why are they so blind to female beauty? I always wonder this. I’m a het women, but women all seem beautiful to me. But not to men they don’t.

111. Sargassosea - February 23, 2011

“Because women do have men in their lives. Not just lovers, but bosses, friends, fathers, brothers, sons, etc.”

Yes, and that’s the problem. Everywhere, it’s constantly back to what about the men again and again and again because women are vested in their lives in all the roles you‘ve listed. I’m sick of it. I don’t care anymore.

I’m a lesbian, I’m self-employed, have no male friends, my father died when I was 22 years old, I wrote my porn sick brother off a long time ago and I have no sons. I am as free as I can be.

(My comment upthread was well considered AND on subject, I might add.)

FCM - February 23, 2011

S4, all of your comments are wonderful, all the time. Thank you.

FCM - February 23, 2011

Also, I also don’t know what its going to take, or who is being helped by any of this. I am absolutely moved to do it though. I know that much.

The 12 year old girls that are having “consensual” piv, (and the ones being raped too) the fun fems, the quiverfulls, I have no idea how to reach any of them. Some of the fun fems are here reading, some young uns are too. Some people just read here to monitor TEH TRANSPHOBIA!!!!1111! Seriously, we are just talking here. Whenever we discuss “strategy” I find it depressing, because I’m not even sure there’s any such thing. Rainsinger finds this stuff to be “consciousness raising” but believes that ultimately only individuals find individual solutions and coping strategies under patriarchy. Depressing, but quite probably true. Actually, I don’t know why that depresses me so much, but it does. Maybe it shouldn’t?

This you all might find interesting: I have been contacted by a university research library who wants to archive this blog as a part of their permanent collection. It appears to be legit. I have to wonder whether they have read any of the trans stuff, since the trans own the fucking universities now. It’s of course possible that the curator knows what she’s doing, and that either she’s a radical feminist too, or they don’t mind the controversy. Progress? Impending drama? I don’t know. But you have all heard of the university. It’s a big one.

Any young uns are of course free to delurk, and possibly make an old ladys day. Sheila is the old lady around these parts of course, not me. 😛

112. FAB Libber - February 23, 2011

society’s worldivew is the male viewpoint and that wOmen have to fit their thoughts into it like a square peg into a round hole.

Yes, true. And as you say, those women that express the most patriarchical views will be GIVEN a platform to reach other women.

When you go on to say about women finding their sexual intelligence, refusing PIV, and multiple partners that would confuse paternity of children – these are all the reasons why we have patriarchy in the first place – firstly to control the paternity of the child so that males have generational control of lineage, secondly males need the slave class in order to personally succeed within their system. It’s much easier to work 70-80 hours per week at your job if you have an unpaid slave at home that will have your washing done, meals ready, and be an emotional support (emotional batteries recharged).

The second reason, support, is one of the prime reasons for the backlash now, they realised they could not play their patriarchy work games without the personal slave at home.

We might be able to get these messages (PIV, slavery) to women, but not all women are going to be able to escape (hard when you have no job skills and kids). So most will resign to their fate and try not to think about it, or try to make the best out of the situation.

As for getting the messages through to males? They sort of got those messages after the second wave. Their reaction? Backlash: Porn everywhere, and a rape culture. So, chances of politely talking to men so they will understand the female pov = NIL. You are wasting your time. They know, they just have too much to lose to give up their system of (female) control.

Trying to get these messages through to young girls is good (and their mothers too, it might be too late for the mothers to escape, but they might value their daughters enough to help them). The backlash will continue though, so issues like abortion and contraception remain frontline priorities (there is evidence that access to these is being eroded away, particularly USA).

Sexual intelligence, other intelligence, is not going to do females any good until they can bond together, support each other and get the boot of our necks, and ride out the backlash which shows no signs of slowing down.

FCM, I think one reason there are so many topic drifts is that radfems see the whole picture of inter-related systems that keep females trapped. Whereas funfems, compartmentalise everything as separate items, and just don’t get the connections. Hence they do not see their “choosey choices” in one area having effect in another area.

FCM - February 23, 2011

I am not talking about topic drifts fab libber. I am talking about people coming in here with the specific intent of derailing by taking the focus off the topic at hand, and onto themselves with their super special snowflake bullshit, and launching pomo tirades into the crowd. Sheila and Jilla have each derailed an entire thread, all by themselves. The last 2 posts here have had their discussions hijacked, so badly that people left, without commenting. The stats are always higher when there’s infighting too. Thought you all might like to know that. People are watching, and they love a good meltdown the best.

113. cherryblossom - February 23, 2011

Congratulations on being archived FCM, especially as it’s certainly true that trans own the universities these days. [which is surely a sign of their privilege. There’s a miniscule amount of trans women in the world women compared to women, and yet look how much power they’ve got compared to us 50% of the population!!]

Fablibber, thank you for elaborating. I’ve only very recently had my radical feminist reawakening, and it was thanks to a very vocal radfem on a mainstream website. I’m ready to further my journey now, which is why I was thrilled to find femonade. So I think that talking about radical feminism online is the best way of reaching women.

114. FAB Libber - February 23, 2011

Ah, got it now.
I always drift off from one thing to the other, can’t help it, so always try to keep myself under control (does not always work).

115. veganprimate - February 23, 2011

FAB Libber said: “Trying to get these messages through to young girls is good (and their mothers too, it might be too late for the mothers to escape, but they might value their daughters enough to help them).”

Not bloody likely. Civilization/patriarchy reverses everything. One of the supposed truisms in our culture is that parents want their children to have a better life than they had. Wrong! Both fathers and mothers have this issue. You get men who don’t care about their son’s happiness; they just want him to go into the family business. And as much as some men like to whine about circumcision being some great evil, who are the biggest proponents for having their sons circumcised? The dads–who want their sons to look like them.

And my mother is obviously biased towards my sister for doing the whole het marriage thing, even though her life is a hot mess and she needs anti-depressants to deal with her fucking idiot husband. My mother will readily admit that she’s not happy; she’ll readily admit that she should have gotten training so she could work at a job that pays a living wage. But she does not approve of my life, even though I am happy. I’ve dodged a lot of bullets…some by sheer luck and accident, and some by choice…but she is not proud of me for forging my own path and being happy.

Parents do not want their kids to be happy. They want their kids to toe the line and be like everyone else. Conformity rules, even if comformity means being miserable.

116. Sargassosea - February 23, 2011

Hey, I feel the need to apologize for going all whiny about my comments (and thanks FCM for the pat on the back :)) but dammit, I was all excited that we were going to be talking about RWW and instead we weren’t. At all.


Cherryblossom. Cherryblossom is why we keep talking and insisting on the space to think and theorize without being *accused* of not doing enough to hasten teh menz’z feminist enlightenment or having one of our own berating (some of) us for not having had the intelligence to avoid being screwed. If there’s to be Revolution it really will be one woman at a time; yet another reason why the *personal is political*.

This blog is an invaluable resource and it should be archived.

117. FAB Libber - February 23, 2011

veganprimate – LOL, I was showing my optimistic side!

You are welcome cherryblossom. Good luck with your radfem journey, things will eventually fall into place and you will see those connections. It’s a way of life, and a way of seeing the world.

118. The Masked Lily - February 23, 2011

It’s wonderful to hear that this blog is being archived! What you’ve created & faithfully keep up here is such a precious space.

It’s depressing how many women think they’re unintelligent.. No doubt indeed that it’s because we’re taught to disregard our own perceptions of reality and replace them with mens’. I’m so sick of seeing women breaking their backs to please men even in the most mundane situations and having it called normal. Maybe I’m an optimist but I think things might slowly be changing for the better – by this I mean maybe the radfem movement is growing of its own volition..

119. Sargassosea - February 23, 2011

“…but she is not proud of me for forging my own path and being happy.”

My mom always said that the one wish she had for both of her children was that they would grow up to partner with women, get this, for her daughter because women are not violent like men and I’d be *safer* and for her son because women have a calming effect on men and that would be good for my brother. My mom, the original 2nd wave funfem!

I think mothers DO want their children to be happy but they don’t know what happiness is themselves and when they see it in their children there’s a certain amount of resentment. Or at least that’s what I feel is going on with my mom; she sees me living a life that she would have loved to live (and in many ways it’s the life that she *inspired* me to find for myself) and I’m sure she realizes on some level that her Life was lost to men and that she was never free after all. That realization hurts. A lot.

Too bad understanding her doesn’t take the away the sting.

(passing-notes-in-class alert! – FAB Libber! I’ve been, like, reading your totally radical blog, but, like, you know, I totally can’t log in to my wp account, so, like, that’s why I’m not commenting!:))

120. Mary Sunshine - February 23, 2011


I’ve been hoping and hoping and hoping that at least *you* were archiving your blog, and was about to try to email you to tell you that you should, but then the good news Congrats!


I think mothers DO want their children to be happy but they don’t know what happiness is themselves and when they see it in their children there’s a certain amount of resentment.

Nail, hammer, bang. (Speaking as the mother of an adult daughter.)

Thanks for bringing this to light.

121. FemmeForever - February 23, 2011

On a slightly related note, I often wonder whether all men are in fact homosexual. All of them.

Absofuckinglutly. They really want to fuck each other but they can’t do that and maintain male privilege. So what they do instead is demand that women denounce their womanhood and contort themselves into man-clones. And that is what society calls a cool woman that men want. Women who make themselves into men with vaginas. Most women start acquiring male brain thinking in their teens.

All men being homosexual also explains the intense hatred that men have for openly gay men. I mean, think about it. Why would you be so diametrically opposed to other people’s sexuality when that sexuality has nothing to do with you. I’m not mad at lesbians. Why would I be? Their sexuality has no bearing on my life at all. But you would hate and fear them if you knew that their presence in society might cause you to betray your fake hetero image.

I want to be loved the way that women love.

That right there is why I became a separatist.

The way women love is true love. The love that the bible talks about. Men don’t love at all, except other men. Not because they can’t love women but because they want to deny women what they most want in life. This makes their tiny little egos feel powerful. I remember I once met a guy who said to me 5 minutes after meeting me that he wanted to say that I had beautiful eyes but he felt like I already knew that and so I shouldn’t be told.

122. FemmeForever - February 23, 2011

The video is a research project into homophobia done by the U of Georgia that proves the link between gay arousal and homophobia.

123. veganprimate - February 23, 2011

Great vid, FF. I had always heard that, but it was nice to see it actually confirmed scientifically. You know, it’s 2011 for crissakes. When will humans get over this bullshit about homosexuality being bad/wrong/sinful?

124. Sargassosea - February 23, 2011

The word “intelligence” has the other meaning of “secret information”, and since the fathers won’t tell their daughters WHY they should stay away from P-centric sexuality (or just men all together because, you know, they are the ones in the best position to explain male sexual realty and how dangerous men are) it’s up to US to tell them the truth whether we are their lover, boss, mother, sister, daughter or just another radfem on the internet.

This is the seed of sexual intelligence as a concept, and following, as a requisite for Liberation.

125. rainsinger - February 23, 2011

I believe Andrea in RRW, was building up from discussion of the politics of intelligence to talking about how women are all ‘Only One Man Away from Welfare’ (whether boss in the workplace and/or sexual partner) and are forced to play ‘Lets Make A Deal’. RRW try to negotiate the contract where they comply with the reproductive labour, and servicing one-man – in return, they are supposed to get protection from other men, food, shelter, the basic necessities of survival.

Andrea dworkin, focusses on right-wing women in the book, but her analysis can be used for left-wing women too.

Left-wing women, also negotiate ‘Lets Make a Deal’, they comply with sexual servicing, cheap labour etc in return for reproductive freedoms, and economic freedoms, and faux-equality. The two options being ‘Live-With-A-Man, OR, Live-Like-A-Man’.

Both are needed by patriarchy, they need females to be sub-classed for both sexual and reproductive access and control, as well as a cheap labour pool.

Andrea says that RRW are making quite an intelligent choice, as they know exactly who the enemy is, but dont agree that the left-wing contract is a ‘better deal’, and carries more risks to survival.

Andrea calls it the ‘Protection racket’, as in marriage=prostitution as a system.

I always liked this book of Andrea’s the best of all. For it gave me my first huge insight into the faction-splitting amongst and between women, ie what keeps dividing us. I also have known many women who have completely understood the radfem analysis, and agree with it – in theory — but thats all, because the theory for them has no relevance to the daily reality of the ‘practice’ of their own survival. They are fully conscious of having “made a deal” with one or more men, but still consider it carries less risk, than struggling to go it alone.

126. maggie - February 23, 2011

Good point Sargassosea regarding the secret information. I think many men dislike that their daughters are having P-centric sex. They do know that PIV causes harm i.e. pregnancy. But many men, the vast majority, do not have ‘the talk’ with their daughters as it makes them feel uncomfortable nay troubled. They are troubled with knowing that they harm women but let it continue. With their own children.

That was a good vid FF. Always suspected it of course. I know many women who are homophobic and have often wondered if they would be secretly turned on by watching two women have sex, whilst claiming of course they weren’t turned on at all.

FCM - February 23, 2011

Yes rainsinger. This will be a multi-part post. As I said, I haven’t even finished the book, but was moved to write about her introductory point about intelligence, because it was brilliant.

127. FAB Libber - February 23, 2011

and since the fathers won’t tell their daughters WHY they should stay away from P-centric sexuality (or just men all together because, you know, they are the ones in the best position to explain male sexual realty and how dangerous men are)

They rarely explain it to their daughters outright, instead, go into “lock up your daughters” mode. Which in effect punishes the daughter when she has done no wrong! It would be far better if they could be more honest about it. All it does is leave them open to the same dangers, just a bit later.

Sar, get your WP thingy working ok?!

128. rainsinger - February 23, 2011

Sorry FCM, running on ahead is a bad habit of mine-I’ll STFU now 🙂

FCM - February 24, 2011

Now that’s good enthusiasm!

I am currently working my way through the chapter on abortion. Particularly, the history of marital rape laws, and the abortion-rights activism of the male left in the sixties. Ugh. Liberal fucking dickwads!!

129. veganprimate - February 24, 2011

FAB Libber said: “They rarely explain it to their daughters outright, instead, go into “lock up your daughters” mode. Which in effect punishes the daughter when she has done no wrong!”

Yep. And a lot of feminists make the mistake in assuming it’s just an ownership thing. I think the dads can’t come right out and say what’s going on for two reasons: 1. they aren’t real sure themselves (kinda like the moms aren’t sure what happiness is) and 2. they are doing it themselves and so they would be implicated as well. It would shake up their worldview and they would have to admit ugly truths about themselves (which I believe is an underlying motivation with just about every single person–No, really, I’m a good person deep down).

130. FAB Libber - February 24, 2011

I think you are dead right about the implication thing.

131. cherryblossom - February 24, 2011

This is all sooo interesting.

Mothers don’t teach their children the truth they know about life because they’re taught not to trust it. During the twentieth century doctors were *obsessed* with telling women not to pick up their babies and with teaching mothers to ignore their child’s cries, and with taking their babies away from them at the hospital, not allowing the mothers to hold them or even breastfeed them, and this still goes on to day. WHen someone tried taking my newborn away into the next room, I felt as though a limb had been amputated. They did not ask my permission. I denied how much it bothered me and I was thrown into a depression. How many mothers deny the connection between the control freakery of doctors and their own PND?

Fast forward to the 21st century and we have MALE childhood gurus explaining that “attachment” is important, and if mothers are not properly attached to their child the child will be fucked up for life. ALfie Kohn is the current fashionable childhood guru. He recommends that parents introduce porn themselves to their sons so they can monitor it (WTF) and one of the best ways for mothers and daughters to bond is by going on shopping trips together (WTF) .

I think if mothers were taught (by feminists and other women) to believe their own truths, they would pass this on to their daughters. I’m going to give the book “Pornland” to my son when I feel the time is right, and I’ve got LOTS of plans for my daughter…

132. zeph - February 24, 2011

“2. they are doing it themselves and so they would be implicated as well.”

Bang on. I think in a patriarchy it is only one sex that is confused.

133. cherryblossom - February 24, 2011

When women pass on sexual intelligence to their kids, I think it’s important for them to distance themselves from the Right. I don’t want my son to feel there’s something wrong about him if he does get turned on by porn, because that is what it’s designed to do, but I am going to have to literally teach him Empathy. But you’ve got culture working against you; society working against you. You’re on your own.

134. dubsh - February 24, 2011

Cue cheesy instrumental music-

I’m a youngin’ that would like to take this chance to delurk.

Over the course of many, many months, I’ve been reading all sorts of shit (and I even feel like I’m picking up on individual personalities from the comments sections). Funfems never sat well with me, but I never had the vocabulary to understand why until I somehow stumbled upon these various radfem blogs. These are so important to me because of the sense that I’m not alone. A book is great, but it doesn’t have community. Especially in a situation like mine (expat, with no feminist acquaintances, in a non-english speaking country where 30% of men 16-35 admit to using prostituted women).

So, long story short, I believe in no uncertain terms that these radfem blogs have saved my life. In the longer term, “holy shit, PIV will kill me” kind of way, but also in a very real “how am I going to get past the latest rape I’ve suffered?” kind of way. Never doubt what you’re doing now in terms of strategy, because I’d be lost without you all.

Thanks to all of you, so very much.

FCM - February 24, 2011

hello de-lurker. thanks for reading.

135. Jilla - February 24, 2011

“They are fully conscious of having “made a deal” with one or more men, but still consider it carries less risk, than struggling to go it alone.”

I hope you are not implying they are weak. “Struggling” for her might include dealing with a mental illness, being incapable of sleeping through the night without waking herself screaming with nightmares of rapes 20 years ago, having, not having the self-esteem to believe she can work at anything but folding laundry and loving her children (born of rape) and having chosen to do it without the chemical medical straight jacket and demeaning social worker. Etc. Some women are truly so broken, I know I have no right to question their choice, or even KNOW why. I have though, learned eventually of the most heart wrenching courage which involves struggles that were invisible. We know what we have a right to as women, our birthright, but not being able to achieve it should not be another burden put upon us, and that by our sisters.

136. thebewilderness - February 24, 2011

I think that is one of the points she is making in RWW. That in a hostile environment women manage risk in various ways. That the assumption that they are doing what they are doing thoughtlessly or because they are stupid is an erroneous assumption to make.

137. thebewilderness - February 24, 2011

A little OT, but the idea of women rejecting PIV unless they wish to have a baby is making its way around the blogosphere. I saw someone say it at Echidne and again at Twisty’s FB page. At FB some dood declared that Roe v Wade would have to be overturned to make that possible. Hello?
Anyway, just so you know, you really have started a lot of women thinking in a different way.

138. cherryblossom - February 24, 2011

I think it would be interesting to see how may RWW play along until their kids are independant, then break free. There are a lot of late in life divorces, I should imagine.

139. rainsinger - February 24, 2011

I hope you are not implying they are weak.

Noooo… I’m confused as to how you could read that implication given the context. Its like you are looking for any excuse to find offence, where none is to be found.

Back to the intelligence stuff though – it always bugged me as a youngun, that women are supposed to have natural “emotional intelligence”, be relationship-oriented, and people-oriented etc. I seemed to have missed out on that X-chromosome gene sequence.

140. cherryblossom - February 24, 2011

I’m also interested in how Muslim women use the veil in this way. If they adhere to the veil then they are more likely to get a job, and their husband and in-laws are more likely to allow her to move around in the public sphere, and also (in Muslim countries at least) they are seen as more “off limits”. WOmen who don’t wear the veil in some countries face much more restrictions in their daily lives, such as street harassment, and their in-laws aren’t going to be happy with them mingling with men in the office. What would you do given those two options?

FCM - February 24, 2011

it always bugged me as a youngun, that women are supposed to have natural “emotional intelligence”, be relationship-oriented, and people-oriented etc. I seemed to have missed out on that X-chromosome gene sequence

yes i missed out on this one as well. i actually suspect now that this “stereotype” is rooted in womens trauma-bonding from PIV, in having to preemptively maintain the het relationship in case we get pregnant, and people-pleasing so we dont get killed. its really fancy of them to imagine its due to chomosomes and stuff though. and women like fancy! and shiny. oooh, look a penny!

FCM - February 24, 2011

heres a link to the sex-pos equation post. in the comments, you will see clearly that men cannot even define “female” and thus cannot imagine the concept of female-specific harm from PIV. its fucking stunning, it really is. this convo was so revealing, which is why i allowed the comments at all. i could not believe what i was seeing, and the more i let through, the more was revealed. which is usually the case.


141. maggie - February 24, 2011

FCM congratulations on this blog, rightfully, being archived and out there. Excellent news.

142. rainsinger - February 24, 2011

In Greer’s “Sex & Destiny: The Politics of Human Fertility”, there’s a section where she discusses cultural PIV taboos. In several parts of Africa and Asia at the time of western European colonisation efforts, most were not densely populated or had a tradition of large families with short birth-spacings (eg a baby a year). They had a minimum of 4-year spacings, and most commonly 6-8 years between births.

They practised abstaining from PIV, particularly during breastfeeding which in many non-western cultures is a minimum of 2 years, commonly up to 4 years and occasionally up to 6 years.

I read this at the same time I was training as a midwife, and I remember an African immigrant couple who came to the Women’s Health centre where I was, and the dude was angry at the mainstream doctor they had seen earlier – who said they could “safely” resume sex (ie PIV) at 6 weeks post-birth and he had responded with “you white men expect me to kill my wife?” I have never forgot that, I was so stunned. Their culture practised a 2-year abstinence. But I understood more about cultural imperialism and hegemony. If colonising males do that regularly and routinely to their own women, then the colonised males start thinking they should do it too.

FCM - February 24, 2011

When and if this blog is ever archived, I will let you know where you can find it. It hasn’t happened yet, and frankly I am not expecting it to. We’ll see.

FCM - February 24, 2011

@ bewilderness

Thanks for the recon, soldier.

143. Jilla - February 24, 2011

women are supposed to have natural “emotional intelligence”, be relationship-oriented, and people-oriented etc. I seemed to have missed out on that X-chromosome gene sequence.


LOL Rain.

It’s kind of woven in here. Not so coming from ONE person. I don’t have a Nigel, never did, but I do see especially right wing men and women, somehow have a working relationship where they have the same goal, and he supports her and vice versa. I’m thinking of some Christian couples. Mennonite families who live near me. I am NOT whitewashing it, just noting they BOTH give and take and are in it for life. That doesn’t mean there aren’t exceptions there too. The women are way more tied into home and family than I would want. But they reap rewards that have meaning to them. The choices are different for women who are not in their 20s or even 30s. I read up thread about teaching or telling women, and then they’d know. NO. It doesn’t really happen that way. They have to come looking for it, want it. I have come to admire some RWW (which by the way is not an expression used in Canada) very much. And I do see tenderness and love and give coming from their husbands to them and vice versa.

I left my marriage and did what was the hardest things in the world. Threw myself out there with no work experience and a grade 10 education, and a physical disability. It turned into being a life of poverty, scrabbling to feed us, being too old to be hired, having my abilities denied and scorned. By everyone, including but actually, mostly, women.

Yes, that’s what AD is saying. I’m here to tell you I’ve lived it. Still screaming in the middle of the night and waking myself up. Thesis, example. Right here.

144. Jilla - February 24, 2011

Rain what you said about a period of abstinence, isn’t that common in plural marriage?

145. Jilla - February 24, 2011

I am pretty sure this is not what you mean FCM, but Google *is* archiving this blog. It’s not going anywhere. Even if you kill it, Google still has it in cache. So does Wayback. Women’s archives are, unfortunately, precarious.

146. rainsinger - February 24, 2011

@FCM – Congrats on getting the offer anyway, no matter what comes of it 🙂

@Jilla, I dont know, possibly. Some practiced sex-segregation, once pregnancy has been achieved, they go their separate ways in cultures where the group or clan bond, was far more important than individual mating couples. It only takes a short time to mate to create a baby, some cultures didnt think this meant the mating couple should stay together 24/7 for life. In harsh environments, the nuclear family structure would be species suicide, humans had to live in larger cooperative groups. I also disagree that ancient folks didnt know where babies came from, I believe they just didnt think the male role was *important* enough to institutionalise it.

Plenty of white European slave-owners in past eras, treated their slaves well – the existence of happy slaves and nice-guy masters, does not make slavery-as-institution morally acceptable. Some pimps treat their prostitutes well too. The existence of Happy Hookers, and Happy Housewives, does not change the politics of the institutions of prostitution or marriage, which under patriarchy, like the old song (sing along) – ‘prostitution-and-marriage go together like a horse-and-carriage’.

147. SheilaG - February 24, 2011

‘prostitution-and-marriage go together like a horse-and-carriage’. sing it rainsinger LOLOLO LOL LOL I can just picture Frank Sinatra at the mircophone circa 1958

148. rhondda - February 24, 2011

I believe they just didnt think the male role was *important* enough to institutionalise it.

Thanks for saying that Rain. It makes a whole lot of sense to me. It didn’t used to be the isolated mother with her kids and a dominant male over them.
That whole scene was manufactured by patriarchy to control people. That is why manufacturing ‘desire’ is very important to them too.

149. Sargassosea - February 24, 2011

I was just thinking about THIS Sinatra, personally:

(feel free to stike this if it’s in *bad taste*! oh, or if I did the imbed wrong!)

150. Jilla - February 24, 2011

Yes I know that analogy Rain. But as you may or may not remember I have been a prostituted woman, so I don’t see that word thrown at women like it’s some failing of theirs. Even if I hadn’t been I can find a commonality with them. I do respect them, very much. I don’t/didn’t want that, threw it off, but even lesbian woman want relationships and ties, don’t they? Some want children too. Others who are lesbians late in life, after they’ve had children, do not regret them. It is too cold to be alone. So we form some attachment that suits us best. I admire that they survive in and thrive, and their skills and world work. Again, I’m thinking of these Mennonite women I know. And I think community plays a bit role in keeping them there. Of course. Also I consider that younger women now have more (and different) options than women my and your age had. So I never judge an older woman for the deal she made with the devil.

151. Sargassosea - February 24, 2011

“Others who are lesbians late in life, after they’ve had children, do not regret them.”

Jilla, no one here ever suggested that they should.

152. Jilla - February 25, 2011

I fell into a cliche there, that I didn’t mean ot use, oboviously I was saying *they* think the opposite of their arrangement to being a deal with the devil. Another thing I’ve suspected is that in many long time relationships PIV is a thing of the past.

If you haven’t figured it out by yet, I have had a stroke and sometimes have difficutly expressing myself.

153. Sargassosea - February 25, 2011

Although I do have to say that there are a great number of women who DO regret the circumstances of the *bringing about* of those children.

Sometimes those children are reminders of their own personal oppressors. And who can blame a woman for being conflicted about (regretting or even hating) the existence of her children given the circumstances in which they were so often conceived?

Anyway, no one blames any one for loving their children, ffs.

154. Jilla - February 25, 2011

My point is some women love their husbands and fathers of the children. But of course mothers don’t love children just because they’ve had them.

I don’t think ffs was really necessary.

155. cherryblossom - February 25, 2011

Been reading the sex positive equation thread that you linked to FCM. How does someone like Hugo get offered a prestigious position to teach something they don’t quite understand…

It made me think about Trans again and how much this sight has been helping me articulate my own sexual intelligence, the kind of innate intelligence that every woman knows, but is forced to deny under patriarchy.
The question I would like answered is: Trans women have no clitoris, so how do they have sex? I’ve heard it said that “doctors” sometimes chisel some sort of hole into them, but what on earth has that got to do with sex?

FCM - February 25, 2011

jilla, since your “inability to express yourself” is only intermittant, and your intentional misunderstandings and defensiveness are constant, i would postulate that there are other things going on here, besides your stroke. was i not supposed to say that? OH WELL!

FCM - February 25, 2011

I’ve heard it said that “doctors” sometimes chisel some sort of hole into them, but what on earth has that got to do with sex?

this is my new favorite quote.

i think they try to do something with the ex-penis nerves to make genital contact feel good for the MTF (the “hole” is of course for the pleasure of the one doing the penetrating). i dont know. i am sure there is info online for neo-clits too. the photos i have seen of SRS looks like they are attempting to approximate a clit-like structure, SOMETIMES. other times, i shit you not, its LITERALLY just a hole. its fucking horrifying. explore at your peril.

156. cherryblossom - February 25, 2011

@ rainsinger ” I also disagree that ancient folks didnt know where babies came from, I believe they just didnt think the male role was *important* enough to institutionalise it. ”

Wow, that makes so much sense when you put it like that. I had heard that “primitive” tribes hadn’t made the connection between paternity and pregnancy, but looking at it from a woman’s perspective that’s clearly not true. I should imagine women only had PIV when they wanted to conceive.
What obviously happened was the male anthropologists assumed the people were primitive and stupid and couldn’t work out what sex was because paternity wasn’t given its “special place” within the tribe. But it’s not that the tribes didn’t know, it’s that they didn’t create a societal structure putting the seed inseminator on a pedastol, and quite right too. In fact, if it was relatively easy to be self sufficient and economically independant, would ANY women live with men?
The answer is no. What a drain on women’s resources. They would still form relationships with them, they would still love them, but I doubt very much they would *live* with them.

157. cherryblossom - February 25, 2011

I can imagine them trying to create a clitoris [ they are Gods, after all, anything women can do i.e create perfect human bodies, doctors can improve upon]
What confuses me though is that the clitoris is a bundle of nerves designed for sexual pleasure. There is no equivalent in the male body. The penis is designed for peeing as well as pleasure. I should imagine a lot of nerves are damaged during the op as well.

158. Jilla - February 25, 2011

jilla, since your “inability to express yourself” is only intermittant, and your intentional misunderstandings and defensiveness are constant, i would postulate that there are other things going on here, besides your stroke. was i not supposed to say that? OH WELL!


I would like to take part in the converrsation here but I don’t seem to be able to find a way how. You can say what you like. but you are wrong.

159. cherryblossom - February 25, 2011

Jilla, at the risk of losing any radfem street-cred I might have I’m going to admit that I’m married. I’m not offended by anything that has been said here, because it’s all true.

FCM - February 25, 2011

you could try just reading for awhile. you showed up here with guns a blazing, and i have had to spend a disproportionate amount of time modding YOUR comments. its pissing me the fuck off. i would believe it was a “disability” if your inability to express yourself were constant, but its not. you seem to be able to do it when you want to, or when you are well rested, or not hungry or what the fuck ever.

so WANT TO post well, and then DO IT. or dont post at all. i am not even kidding. thanks.

160. cherryblossom - February 25, 2011

I’m reading John Holt, author of “HOw children Learn” who was considered a twentieth century expert…

“Just the other day, flying back to Boston, I sat next to two men who were having a conversation about advanced biology. On the one hand, I couldn’t help being curious about what they were saying and the diagrams they were drawing. But even as I tried to catch some shred of meaning from all their talk, in another part of my mind I was angrily rejecting the importance of what they were talking about. I was able, for the most part, to silence my defensive thoughts and go on listening. But the reaction was there, and strong as it is when I read, say in Scientific American, an article of which I can make absolute sense Such reactions are natural, if nothing to be proud of. Even in the privacy of our own minds, we don’t not like to be made to feel ignorant and stupid. COnfronted with what we do not know, we try to protect ourselves by saying it is not worth knowing.”

Two points here:

1) Women don’t feel ANGRY when they don’t understand something. NOt understanding something simply confirms what deep down they already believe about themselves: that they are very stupid. That’s why they put up with mansplaining. WOmen just can’t contemplate that a human being would talk with such authority on something but actually be so wrong. The ARROGANCE it would require to behave like that!

2) The author here had no concept of female reality, in that women are not only expected to be stupid, but anger is directed at them *all* *the* *time* for displaying signs of intelligence. I would say lots of women have been dressed down by a man less competent than themselves. I would say it happens every day.

FCM - February 25, 2011

Thanks for that cherryblossom. Mansplanations are the ultimate online display of male intellectual arrogance aren’t they? And women falling for them, even when they come from mtf, is a really obvious display of learned intellectual submissiveness in women. It’s really disheartening, but such a common exchange.

FCM - February 25, 2011

So, I am on the cusp of writing another post, and I am now going to address the situation with Jilla. Because I will not have another thread hijacked like this one has been. This is two in a row now, and I will not have three. Okay? I won’t.

Jilla is banned. This is a blog, and the entire purpose of it is to communicate. This requies…communication skills. Sorry, but it does. Not only the ability to and interest in discussing the topic at hand, but responding in a way that moves the conversation forward. That makes people want to respond to YOU in a way that is not about YOU but about what you added to the discussion. So that THEY then add to the discussion. There are criteria to what makes a meaningful exchange and a good conversation. This often goes unnoticed when its happening naturally, but its always there.

Jilla has admitted that she has trouble communicating, and has demonstrated that that’s true. And its been devastating to these threads. So, she will not be posting here anymore. She is still free to read of course. Everyone is free to read, but I also have to mod, and that’s what I am doing.

Lest anyone think this banning is content based, I will hereby concede every point Jilla has ever made. I am not a special snowflake. Old women are women. Disabled women are women. Heterosexual women are women. Women with children are women. Ex prostituted women are women. Canadian women are women. Women who have trouble expressing themselves are women. Women who derail are women. Women who don’t like me or this blog are women.

This is over. Anyone who has something to say about it, can do so on this thread, until the end of the weekend. And that’s it. I am moving forward, and anyone who wants to move forward with me is welcome to do so.

FCM - February 25, 2011

And if I didn’t put one or more of jillas points on the list, I hereby concede those too. Limited of course to the points she has made here, on this blog.

161. rhondda - February 25, 2011

I am looking forward to your new post.

162. Sargassosea - February 25, 2011

Me too.

More RWW I hope?

FCM - February 25, 2011

Yes s4.

FCM - February 25, 2011

And thanks!

163. maggie - February 25, 2011

Have ordered RWW (plus Pornograhy) from the library – dang our libraries in the UK need supporting or else they close so ditched the a m a z o n order. In case you hadn’t noticed I’m a left wing woman. Promise forever to stick to the point, no going off track and am so looking forward to your next post.

164. maggie - February 25, 2011

missed out the p. How salient is that?

165. 29 April, why weddings suck for women | twanzphobic since forever - May 3, 2011

[…] – het marriage ≠ prostitution & the word prostitution FCM – Right Wing Women, Part 1, Part 2, Part 3. Ballbuster – golddigger Part 1, Part 2. If anyone has other suggestions, […]

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