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From the Motherland March 17, 2011

Posted by FCM in feminisms, health, international, news you can use, PIV, trans.
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i visited my mother recently, and since i havent finished reading “right wing women” yet…i thought i would report on my visit instead.  although i have to say that RWW is really freaking relevant.  to everything.  including my visit with my mother.  for example…i just finished reading the part about elderly women, and what becomes of them (us) when they are no longer functional (to men, obvs) as wives, caretakers, impregnable persons, or fucktoys.  my mother isnt elderly (yet) but her list of “useful female functions under the P” is getting pretty damn short.

anyway, i have written about my mother before, and she is no feminist.  that of course hasnt changed, but interestingly, her perception of my feminism seems to have changed, alot.  in actuality, my feminism has changed drastically over the last 2 years to include the righteous radicalism i spew out here approximately every 7 days…and we were actually able to find some common ground and talk about “my feminism”, for the first time, ever.  the last time we tried was over dinner in college, and i told her in the middle of the discussion that if it werent fucking dark out, i would get up and walk home alone right now, i was so aggravated.  i dont even remember what we were discussing exactly, but i remember telling her to read a fucking book, and that it wasnt my job to teach her everything i had learned in the last 4 years of college, right here, over dinner. 

did i mention i was a gender studies major? BAHAHAHAHA!  YES!  i was!  BUT it wasnt THAT BAD back then, i swear it wasnt.  this trans-business wasnt nearly as prom-ulent back then, and i took many of my classes when the program was still known as “womens studies.”  whatever they were teaching me though, (and i am seriously wondering about that at the moment) it made no damn sense to my mom, at all.  for her part, she made very cruel fun of my favorite empowerfulized music, saying that it reminded her of “smelly cat” from friends.  come on, mom, thats low.  especially considering that SHE listened to fucking yani and john tesh!  she just couldnt leave it alone.  but i digress.

so while i was visiting her this past week, i told her about this blogging stuff, (she wanted to know what ive been up to, HA!) and being there a week, i couldnt just offer generalizations.  a week is a damn long time to not have a real conversation with someone you care about, about a topic that actually matters.  so i got specific.  i told her about the PIV-criticism thats made its way under the doors and into most of the corners of the feminist blogosphere this past year…and she wasnt confused by this, at all.  she didnt fight with me about it, at all.  she asked a few questions about it, and i told her what i thought, and what radical feminists have been saying about it since pre-WWI.

and you know what she said?  she said she took PIV off the table recently too, because of post-menopausal vaginal atrophy that made PIV painful.  (so much for my offering “to discuss PIV again after menopause.”  sorry, nigel!)

she also told me, and this is the first i was hearing about it, that she had told her husband a couple of years ago that she didnt want him touching her genitally with his fingers or his mouth either, because she had become prone to urinary tract infections post-menopause, and “your fingers and mouth have way more germs than your dick.”  ABSOLUTELY!  (oh, and besides being post-menopausal and UTI-prone, my moms a nurse).  then, she told me that she was struck by my pregnancy-fear, when UTIs and other infections are so prominent, and are even more easily caused by digital and/or oral genital contact than by PIV.  she remarked that in the midst of all this PIV-criticism, that UTIs and other side effects of genital contact seem to be just swept under the rug like they are nothing.  indeed.

so after we had been discussing this stuff on and off for a few days, she eventually asked me, in all seriousness, what the hell was wrong with men that they want to constantly stick their dicks into women, even when the women arent clean.  especially women in other countries, where cleanliness isnt prized.  (okay did i mention my moms not a feminist?  shes not.)  she asked me, in all seriousness, what the hell this was about: why men HAVE TO stick their dicks into WOMEN, SPECIFICALLY.  why THAT was so much better than the men just “taking care of it themselves.”  when i told her that PIV can be read as an act of domination and aggression, because it causes pregnancy and disease, she got it.  immediately.  when i said that pregnancy can kill you, especially in “underdeveloped” countries, and that therefore PIV could actually be read as an act of murderous violence, especially there, where “cleanliness isnt prized” (or western-style “cleanliness” isnt available, and medical care isnt either) the penny dropped.  she knew this was true, and that it was self-evident, at that.

she also remarked, upon hearing about the trans-stuff, that she doesnt want men in womens restrooms either.

so…believe it or dont, this was a lot of information and sex-talk to take, from my mother, in a weeks time.  and…its got me thinking.

the first thing is that some things *are* just fucking self-evident.  and it doesnt take a feminist to see it, either.  womens experiences are so universal, because we are surviving as women under global or near-global patriarchy, that what we know as “radical feminist” observations are simply womens reality.  it has another name, because “reality” is mens reality, and doesnt include what women know, and what we have learned about all of this.  “feminism” only has a name in the first fucking place, because women are so marginalized.  i mean really.  it couldnt be more obvious.

another thing is this: i initially offered to “do other things” with nigel when i took PIV off the table, but the truth of it is that i am prone to UTIs myself.  i used to get them with some frequency, or feel like i was getting them, and have to “get right on” some home-remedy with a quickness, usually with some atheist-praying thrown in.  now that we are having no genital contact at all, i have not had even a hint of one.  not a twitch, not a tingle.  nothing.  no yeast infections either.  not a fucking one.  i feel…great.  its kinda weird.

i will just note for the record though, that i wouldnt say that “infections” of any kind are female-specific harms…even though women are actually more prone to both STDs and UTIs due to our female plumbing.  they arent female-specific harms because men get infections tooooo!!11!!1!  thats how serious i am about the female-specific harm of PIV, (unwanted pregnancy) actually BEING female-specific.  it is.  and even though my mom makes an excellent point about genital contact and infections generally, thats probably better placed in the “news you can use” category than the PIV category.  it might not even be particularly feminist.  not sure about that yet.  thats one

another thing i will note is that because PIV always fucking follows “other stuff too!!11!11” the effect of PIV is to drive ALL bacteria, including hand-and-mouth bacteria even further up the urethra than it would normally go, if it were “merely” digital or oral contact, without all the thrusting.  so… genital-contact-having lesbians* are still safer, assuming they arent using strap-ons (or even mildly dirty strap-ons, which would approximate average naturally-occuring dick-germs) along with their other stuff too, even when it comes to UTIs. “other stuff” for lesbians, meaning, sex.  obviously!

that is all.

* i would throw in a hat-tip to the genital-contact-having PIV-abstinent het couples out there too…if i actually believed there were any.


1. FAB Libber - March 17, 2011

Well done.
In general, many women when they get around the 40 mark have the realisation of “this piv stuff, not much in it for me, a lot of inconvenience/UTIs”. Which is probably why Nigels trade them in for younger models more compliant with the PIV pony.

The other week a chat to my mother on the phone covered trans. Her initial position was “…well, if they aren’t doing any harm, what business is it of yours?”. 20 minutes later she was anti-trans (or more accurately, pro-FAB, and not having FAB put in danger by M2T dress-ups) once she knew what the dangers were for FABs.

All this passing knowledge between women, gets stifled by the patriarchy set-up of keeping women apart. It’s deliberate, because we start talking, and two and two equals…

2. maggie - March 17, 2011

As a mum myself to two daughters I’ve started to skirt around the issue regarding PIV on demand. I need to go easy as I may push them into funfem land and funfems they are not. The last thing I want to do is have a teenage rebellion on my hand. Nuance is my key strategy. So far they are boyfriend free. And not worried at all about it. A small step but a good one.

I had a chat recently about PIV with my girlfriend who is in her late 40s and she told me that she doesn’t do it anymore with her husband. She told me that PIV on demand no longer interests her, even if she replaced her husband with a new Nigel. We agree that intimacy is the sharing of ideas and togetherness. Intimacy is achieved with girlfriends, family members and friends. She also told me that they watched ‘The Girl Who Played With Fire’ with their two daughters. The lesbian sex scene (glorious) took them all by surprise. We agreed that it was real sexual intimacy. No doubt about it.

I’m amazed at RWW and have also just finished reading the very depressing chapter on old women. Who dare to live into old age. And are punished for it.

Oh and my friend and I are so transphobic we shock ourselves! 4 plus 4 makes…

3. maggie - March 17, 2011

Forgiveness if I offend anyone with the reference to ‘Girl Who Played With Fire’ I know it has it’s faults. Just wanted to include it to make a point regarding PIV free sex. If only we could see that in films with het couples and not just lesbians…

4. Undercover Punk - March 17, 2011

I can’t believe you majored in Gender Studies!!11!! I’m not sure if we can be friends anymore. I need to think about this. ;P

Jk. Jk. I just want to report that I don’t have infection issues with my hot lesbian sex activities (which are not phallo-centric, thank you). I’m glad yo’ mama is so COOL! I’m glad you told her about the blogging. I hate being secretive, but people just do NOT understand what this is all about. Except sometimes they do. And that feels so good. It’s kind of like being closeted in “other ways.”

FCM - March 17, 2011

Yes, the separation/isolation was something we discussed too. She recently got together with her siblings to discuss some family business, and they started talking about how their mother groomed them all, even the boys, to leave the nest and fly far far away as soon as they were old enough. My mom got married when she was 17, and the rest of them pretty much followed her lead. They all had several kids that they raised alone, without ever helping each other out. They all blame my grandmother for “teaching them” this isolating pattern.

It’s all very “what about teh menz” though of course, because they all seem to think the boys were as screwed over by this as the girls were, just because it would’ve been easier on all of them to have had some help from each other, over the years. What none of them recognized was how the boys directly and substantially benefitted from this arrangement, on the other end: when one of them cheated on his wife for example, she had nowhere to go. When this same brother and his wife had a disabled child, she took care of the child, alone, leaving her career and becoming more and more dependant, ON HIM. So that he COULD cheat later down the road, with impunity, and did.

I didn’t delve into this too deeply with my mom, but she said “so, your saying the isolation thing is systemic, and I am probably blaming my mother too much?” Yep.

5. Sargassosea - March 17, 2011

Yeah, well, anybody who’s *grooving* to Yani and Tesh got NO business critiquing real music! You’ll have to pry my Prince, The B Sides out of my cold dead hands!!!!

“i feel…great. its kinda weird.”

I’m so glad you feel great. 🙂 It’s nice, isn’t it?

As for moms: I have one (shock!) and I am one.

I’ve talked about my mom (The Original 2nd Wave Funfem) before and unfortunately we have problems with our relationship, but I’m quite sure that if I were to spend a week with her that she’d be totally on board with the anti-PIV, specific harm concepts; she’d get it. Because you’re right, FCM, all radical feminism IS is naming our reality. So simple, yet so incredibly hard.

Being a mom, I hear what Maggie is saying. It can be a fine line to walk when we are trying to arm them with vital, even life-saving information. (For instance, I used to think that my mom was totally militant! because she once mused about spiking the water supply with some testosterone antidote! Of course I was coming from a place of thinking: Well, if dudes are so terrible why are you married to one? They must not be that bad…) Our daughter just turned 11 and she’s been hearing my theorizing, and reading many of y’alls too, for the last three years or so. She easily grasped the idea that PIV = “sex” and that that is entirely heteronormative and dick-centric bullshit. She reads F Bomb and critiques their writings through a radfem lens, often noting even the most subtle “what about teh boyz!!1!” arguments. She finds the option of Spinster very appealing…

Most importantly, I guess, is that all of you are helping to inform and inspire what very well may be the first generation Always Radfems.

Hats off, sisters!

FCM - March 17, 2011

I would like to know whether anyone seriously believes that quality medical care, maternal mortality, and “cleanliness” aren’t absolutely connected? Because they are.

I’m not making any excuses for what my mom said about “unclean women” at all. It was misogynist times ten. Was it also racist? I don’t know. She didn’t seem to have any concept at all that the MEN in these places had hygiene issues. Just the women. It was very much a “what about teh menz” sentiment, in that she couldn’t believe the men would want to stick their dicks into dirty women. Boo fucking hoo, right? Poor teh menz.

I will have more to say about this later, but for now, I think its fascinating that the “dirty women in underdeveloped countries” piv scenario made the LEAST sense to her, when she has completely bought into both just straight up misogynist thinking about “dirty women” AND she has bought into the piv-as-sex paradigm her entire life, and everything it entails. BUT, the situation of men sticking their dicks into women who don’t have access to medical care actually makes the MOST sense, when you look at it like piv-equals-female harm. Doesn’t it? Talk about a reversal. She was so confused about this, that she took 10 minutes to ask the question, what with all the gesticulating and stinky-poo facial expressions. She was legitimately confused. She’s not anymore.

6. maggie - March 17, 2011

In my humble opinion I’d wager a guess that your mum was racist. But then again I don’t know her. Also she’s wrong about the atrophy thing. That only sets in around the 70s (and if she is above this age then forgiveness).

Menopause is big business in the pharmaceutical world, as is ‘peri menopause’. It relies heavily on the fears of women getting old – and the treatment meted out to them, as Dworkin so painfully describes.

Ovaries don’t stop giving out oestrogen. They just stop the spike of oestrogen mid cycle, because there are no more eggs left to release. Plus although it’s a different oestrogen (the non killing but beneficial kind) the fat cells in the body also contribute. There aren’t many studies on this but hundreds of myths that ‘big pharma’ (no I don’t believe in conspiracy theories), extrapolate and exploitate. For profit.

She doesn’t want sex anymore, and therefore sees it as stinky business. But the clitoris is separate from the uretha. If the clitoris is manipulated properly there shouldn’t be any harm done. I think she should be told. There is no reason why she can’t keep having orgasms right up until being elderly, which I”m sure she isn’t. And orgasms by manual manipulation keeps the muscles fresh.

PIV post menopause is usually done via habit anyway. Therefore there isn’t much foreplay and so it’s hardly surprising that all isn’t as wet as before. A woman is only truely receptive to a penis when in mid cycle. So one can really only conclude that PIV is to harm women, no matter how one looks at it.

FCM - March 17, 2011

My mother is a nurse, as I said. She knows what she knows, and I believe her when she says that her vagina has changed. She had an early onset menopause, and has had a rough time of it. So if you are thinking that atrophy for example only sets in after being menopausal for 20 years, she might already be there, even though she’s only 59.

Also, she never said that sex was stinky business. She was talking specifically about WOMEN. Not men. She specifically excluded men actually, in drawing up a scenario in which both male and female genitals would be involved, and with both people living in similar conditions, and she felt sorry for the men. It was really unnerving.

BTW, she isn’t reading, as I never told her the name of the blog, and she probably wouldn’t bother to try to seek it out on her own. So I am speaking freely. As usual.

FCM - March 17, 2011

She was also very clear about her belief that people can take care of their own needs, when it comes to orgasms. She expects her husband to take care of himself, and if she wants orgasms herself, I am sure she knows how to do it.

Not sure I could handle a detailed masturbation discussion with her though, especially after everything else we discussed on my visit. It sounds stupid, after everything we’ve discussed here on this blog, but there’s only so much I can take.

FCM - March 17, 2011

Also, I think we can all take notice of the fact that all white people are racist. It seems counterproductive to debate that, and I never asked whether my mom was racist. She is.

I am interested in how her misogyny and female-body-hatred was focused so deliberately in this specific instance. Because we weren’t talking about cleanliness, or other countries, or anyone in particular, before she “went there”. We were talking about piv.

7. rhondda - March 18, 2011

Even if one is not a Christian, that belief system permeates values of society and women’s bodies are evil incarnate. We are taught that our bodies are for men and that we are evil. All that has to happen is to be humiliated by being caught touching yourself for that ‘value’ to be instilled when you were a child. When I finally figured out the double bind, I chose to be ‘evil’ according to that perception. It actually was quite liberating. Sin big Daly says. A reversal seems to be in the works nowadays and if you don’t have sex, wow, there is something really wrong with you. (sex as piv) It is just another double bind. Even people who are not christians can have those unconscious values for the idea that women are just sluts encompasses that view and gets internalized. That is one reason why the patriarchy is so insidious. It’s everywhere telling us that. Unclean sluts. You want it. It is where the coercion begins in the mind, when you start to believe the lie. Given your mom’s age, she probably internalized that idea of women’s uncleanliness early in life and it would definitely be reinforced in nursing school.

8. lishra - March 18, 2011

Great post, FCM. Radical feminist ideas are so basic, yet it takes so fucking long to arrive at them because of all the unraveling and *believing your own experiences* you have to do first. If women were in a position to immediately trust themselves from the start, well…. when’s that revolution starting again?

P.S. – Hello my fellow studier of women and gender! : )

9. veganprimate - March 18, 2011

I remember telling another woman how difficult it is to get a good clean catch urine specimen for women, b/c of the surface tension of liquid and the fact that if a woman isn’t making a special effort to hold the labia apart and doesn’t have a forceful enough stream, the urine will just run down everywhere before it hits the toilet.

Her response to a perfectly neutral physiological discussion? “Woman are so disgusting!”

FCM - March 18, 2011

Speaking of reversals, its absolutely striking that all this “dirty” talk has been aimed at women for so long, when its actually MEN who are more likely to infect anyone (including other men) with actual DISEASE. It’s always bothered me (and others, including the early feminists jeffreys writes about in spinster) that the fear of spreading disease is always aimed at women, particularly prostitutes, when its men who are infecting them! And how, one may rightly wonder, are the men becoming infected in the first place, when its relatively difficult to catch an std from a woman? I suspect it has something to do with men constantly fucking each other in the ass. Duh. Blame it on the hookers, and the issue of male homosexuality AND allegedly straight men engaging in penetrative sex with other men, conveniently goes away.

FCM - March 18, 2011

And of course men are notorious sluts too, which doesn’t help. Duh, again.

FCM - March 18, 2011

The idea that women are sluts is probably the biggest reversal of all.

10. FAB Libber - March 18, 2011

Your mother is only 59? Not much older than I am, so perhaps I am a bit weirded out on some of the generational assumptions going on.

True that the ovaries still produce some oestrogen after menopause, but I think it is still a reduced level. Body fat plays a big part post menopause, and it is probably due to the lower oestrogen levels that the body just naturally wants to add fat stores to make up for less oestrogen in the system. Packing on the pounds is a pretty common thing post-menopause. You don’t lose it again until really elderly.

I can’t really advise on the vaginal atrophy as it relates to PIV, as mine has been out of bounds from not long after premature menopause. My vag seems happy enough in itself though. I do have a bit more tendancy for bladder infections, but drink lots of cranberry juice all the time.

Because of my premmie menopause, the doc did try to shove some HRT onto me, but it was not worth the effort. I could not handle the OCP, neither could I handle the HRT.

VP, over the years of giving urine specimens, no one has ever instructed me to hold the labia apart for a clean specimen, so it is really the fault of the medical staff (onsite collection) not giving proper instruction in this area. The supplier of the piss has no way of guessing these things!!

11. FAB Libber - March 18, 2011

Blame it on the hookers, and the issue of male homosexuality AND allegedly straight men engaging in penetrative sex with other men, conveniently goes away.

I think there are a lot of supposedly straight dudes engaging in male homosexual acts. So yes, it sounds totally feasible that prostituted women have been used as the scapegoats. It’s hard to get any male to wear a condom, and you would think that males, if they genuinely believed the hookers-are-dirty thing, would be adament about using condoms, but they aren’t.

FCM - March 18, 2011

What generational assumptions fab libber? That my mom doesn’t know where her clit is? 😛

12. FAB Libber - March 18, 2011

Just a general impression I got, like ‘we’ were from a completely ‘different world’ and that certain concepts would be foreign to us. Too lazy to go back and cite stuff.

The ‘foreign women are dirty’ thing is not something I ever thought. The male-identified stuff. More signs of white-centric religious upbringing, than due to Ye Olden Days. We had cars and TV back then, LOL.

FCM - March 18, 2011

Well I think rhondda makes an excellent point about female body hatred being reinforced in nursing school. Absofuckinglutely. And the ability to sterilize medical instruments, people, and entire rooms is extremely important in that profession too. Boiling water is important, electricity to run autoclaves is important. I think the idea that people live in these conditions at all freaks her out, as it should. She used to deliver babies for a living, and she knows how important cleanliness is, in that environment in particular. The connection between maternal mortality and cleanliness is not made up, its real. Doctors used to tend to infectious patients or dissect infectious cadavers in one room, and deliver babies or perform surgery in the next, without even washing their fucking hands in between, before they knew what germs were by seeing them through a microscope.

But the female body hatred part has got to be huge. Again, she didnt indicate that she had any concern at all about “foreign” mens cleanliness. Nor did she express concern about the men infecting the women with disease, or even about the lack of access to quality medical care, until I mentioned it.

13. SheilaG - March 18, 2011

This is such an excellent post and discussion. Very very informative, thanks everyone!!!

14. Sargassosea - March 18, 2011

Hey, aren’t we the ones with the self-cleaning reproductive organ system? Why yes we are.

Absolutely, blaming STDs and STIs on eevil women and icky “fags” serves to hush up the fact-ola that good, god-fearing, straight men are sticking their dicks into each other and whatever else strikes their fancy and then come stick them in us.

I mean really, does a 7 year old girl spontaneously break out in genital herpes? And there’s also this big problem of 12 and 13 year olds just suddenly turning up pregnant. How about those non-drug using, straight, monogamous, never-had-a-blood-transfusion women who just woke up one morning sporting some sweet HIV?

No man in the history of the fricking world has ever done anything bad. Except Hitler and the only reason anyone cared about that is because a whole lot of his victims were civilian men and boys. Rape and murder civilian women and girls? SOP.

15. rhondda - March 18, 2011

It is interesting to note that Mary Wollstonecraft died of septicaemia. Some feminists think she was infected by a doctor who did not wash his hands.
Good christian men rejoiced that that wicked woman was dead and that she died a painful death according to god’s plan. It is also interesting to note that if you google third leading cause of death what comes up first is the word ‘doctors’. I did not check if there was a breakdown between women and men.

16. rhondda - March 18, 2011

I do feel I should add that I am not opposed to modern medicine. If I was in an accident, yes I want care, because I have frigging paid taxes for it. What I object to is the ‘god’ status of doctors and that somehow they are beyond reproach and how women especially buy into that.

17. The Dude - March 18, 2011

This blog is the most magnificent troll-blog EVER. Spectacularly angry. I love it.

Too bad you’re an enemy to your own cause.

If what you had to say was actually worthwhile, anonymity would be what you WOULD NOT want and serious sociological research would be what you post.

Not your angsty, silly rambling.

Now I know you won’t post this. You lack the guts and think dissent is just mansplaining but that’s ok. At least I know you read it.

FCM - March 18, 2011

Look at his randomly-generated monster avatar. Pfft. That was totally worth it.

FCM - March 18, 2011

And it shouldn’t surprise anyone that he submitted the same comment, TWICE. Because I didn’t approve it fast enough the first time!

And now…back to our regularly scheduled rad.

Maggie: your “dry sex” comment went to spam for some reason. Post it again? Thanks!

18. rhondda - March 18, 2011

I have to ask just what is ‘serious sociological research’ but more mansplaining? (depending of course on the first assumptions posed) The dude is obviously perturbed. Women are out of control here.

FCM - March 18, 2011

Damn straight rhondda!

19. FAB Libber - March 18, 2011

The dude is obviously perturbed. Women are out of control here.

ROTFLMAO, yes indeed, the women here are out of control.

Out of male control.
That is what really troubles “The Dude”.

FCM - March 18, 2011

And I can’t help but notice the reversal there either. He comes onto MY BLOG, knowing hes not welcome, and leaving an irrelevant comment he “knows” I won’t publish…and somehow *I* am the troll. And not HIM. Strangely, he is not the first to accuse me of trolling my own blog. It’s as if they just have to “say the opposite” and it magically comes true, because they say it is.

This is is men’s reality. Nice huh?

FCM - March 18, 2011

Dude is still trying to comment. Directly into spam now. Unread by human eyes. Later, Dude.

FCM - March 18, 2011

I have thpoken!! Bahahahah

20. rhondda - March 18, 2011

Just to be facetious, wicked and bad, I would like to see a study on how many wives of doctors commit suicide. There has been a few in my town, or they are pharmaceutical addicted drug addicts with lovely houses and housekeepers, or on the boards of ngo’s that spend more on her salary than on the people they are supposed to help. I am so bad. Then of course there are the nurses who put the jerk through medical school and she is no longer good enough for him. After all, he is god now and needs a trophy wife.
I even had to remind my own son how his girlfriend had supported him. He had to admit it was true. Funny that. They like to pretend they are self made men. yeah right.

FCM - March 18, 2011

My mom had a suicide attempt when she was married to my dad. He was a doctor. She told me on this visit that he had repeatedly raped her while they were married. Her words were that he believed that sex was there for the taking, and that he did take it, many times. She started to give me details, then stopped herself.

21. rhondda - March 18, 2011

I am on a roll here FCM. If this is too much delete.
I just saw in my local paper that a friend of mine’s husband has been declared ‘Realtor of the year’. The picture of him is this smug jerk. I happen to know that she does all the books, plus all the housework — a real helpmate. She has the desire to be a writer and goes to seminars etc. with his full support, except when she is fully inspired, then he wants her to make cookies for his clients because well that is part of the game about being Realtor of the year. She never says no. Her economic comfort is based on his paycheck, so she complies with a shrug of her shoulders and her self-realization is again put on the back burner. I also know that she has nightmares every night about self-cutting and self-abuse, yet she never makes the connection with her real life. He on the other hand is quite happy with her self-denial. He is very threatened by me. Yet, I can say nothing because she would jump to his defense. He doesn’t even say the cursory line that he could not have done this without her. Fuck. It makes me so angry. And get this: they have romantic dates with each other. I guess that is supposed to appease her. She gets her one night a week of romance for her fucking whole life of service.

22. rhondda - March 18, 2011

FCM, I am so sorry if I have triggered something for you. You are beginning to connect with your mom. This was something I so longed for with mine. Take it slow. Read Dworkin’s Our Blood on how she connected with her mom. From what I have read from you the desire is there. It is real. I am sure the desire is there for your mom too. Moms and daughters have been severed from each other by men.

23. maggie - March 18, 2011

It went again. Search engine Dry Sex.

W I k I is a good link to to to.

Women who engage in this don’t just get painful sex. They get a death sentance.

24. maggie - March 18, 2011

the men like it because it makes the vagina feel virginal.

Once again it’s about the men and their pleasure at the considerable cost of the female.

25. veganprimate - March 18, 2011

FAB Libber said: “VP, over the years of giving urine specimens, no one has ever instructed me to hold the labia apart for a clean specimen, so it is really the fault of the medical staff (onsite collection) not giving proper instruction in this area. The supplier of the piss has no way of guessing these things!!”

Yeah, I know. I went in for a UTI recently (I rarely get them now that I don’t have sex with dudes, but I was dehydrated from not drinking enough), and the gal didn’t mention anything to me. Luckily, I know how to obtain a clean catch. I always explain it thoroughly, b/c it’s not about me; it’s about the patient, and this may be the first time they’ve ever been told really thoroughly.

As we lab rats all know, the test result is only as good as the specimen which is submitted.

Also, FCM, it sounds like your relationship with your mother is moving in a new, interesting direction.

FCM - March 18, 2011

Rhondda, life needs a fucking trigger warning. Srsly. Everything does, or nothing does. Don’t worry about it.

26. FAB Libber - March 18, 2011

On ‘dry sex’ (from dikipedia):
The practice has been linked to the high incidence of HIV/AIDS infection in Sub-Saharan Africa.[1] The practice is regarded as increasing the risk of transmitting sexually transmitted diseases (STDs) for both partners, including HIV[3][1] in a number of ways. For example, the lack of lubrication causes lacerations in vaginal tissue, which increases the risk of HIV transmission .[7] [8] Drying the vagina also removes the natural antiseptic lactobacilli which can combat sexually transmitted diseases. Furthermore, dry sex increases the risk that a condom will break because of the increased friction. It may also result in vaginal inflammation and/or traumatic lesions which in turn may increase the transmission of STDs in other ways.

And another article here:

27. maggie - March 18, 2011

dikipedia – yeah

they write about this and still insist they get PIV on demand.

they watch childbirth and still insist they get PIV on demand.

28. maggie - March 18, 2011

Sorry to stalk but just to add that the phrase dry sex means just that.

There is NO lubrication whatsoever. They may as well fuck non lubricated ‘fuck holes’ like those fabricated for transnobodies.

FCM - March 18, 2011

That is just so fucking gross. Jesus.

29. FAB Libber - March 18, 2011

That second article meant well, but got the cart before the horse in one respect:

At least 80% of a group of 150 prostitutes aged between 15 and 45 years who work at truck stops favour high, tight, and dry sex.

Wrong! It’s not the prostitutes who favour it, it is the johns, and it is a demand-driven practice. If the prostitutes don’t do it, they don’t get the work, simple. The article corrects itself a bit by following with:

Competition is tough and it is imperative the men return to them for economic reasons. One woman explains: “men do not like loose vaginas. If sex is wet the man thinks that I have had sex with someone else and then he won’t pay me.”

FCM - March 18, 2011

Yes they are choosing their choice!!!!11!1

Starvation versus a slow painful death by aids, hepatitis, syphilis, tuberculosis, leprosy, whevs on tap. I do so enjoy choice rhetoric. Don’t you?

30. rhondda - March 18, 2011

Thanks fcm. I do tend to go on without thinking of effect.

31. Crucial D - March 18, 2011

I had a pap smear today and the dr. asked me when was the last time that i was sexually active. I said 6months or more to which she replied, “is your husband okay with that?” Granted, I do have a husband but what the fuck, lady? Why does it matter how he feels about it? I’m a human being, not a fark hole. jeebus!

32. Crucial D - March 18, 2011

Also, I think it’s great that you have a chance to talk to your mom about all of this and you can connect with her. My mom took her own life 5 years ago. I totally blame my father for making her life a living hell.

FCM - March 18, 2011

crucial D…an IBTP defector?

FCM - March 18, 2011

from the link:

Many women in the region willingly insert herbal aphrodisiacs, household detergents, and antiseptics into their vaginas before sex, to ensure they are “hot, tight, and dry”. This is the way their men like them, they say. The agents increase friction during sex and although painful for women, they are prepared to forego their own pleasure to ensure their partners return to them.

ok…theres a massive disconnect here, between “painful for the woman” and “prepared to forego their own pleasure.” pain is the same thing as “not pleasurable” now apparently. good to know. i bet a billion quid these women are WISHING for the days when PIV was merely “not pleasurable” for them. WISHING.

FCM - March 18, 2011

and the doctor asking if your husband was ok with not getting any for 6 months…THATS RICH! also notable of course is the framing of PIV as “sex”. BY A DOCTOR. not only a doctor, but a lady-parts specialist.

i no longer go to the gyn since i stopped taking the pill. this july will be the 2nd pap smear ive missed. i wish there was a way to get accurate information regarding whether this is actually dangerous. of course, there isnt.

33. Crucial D - March 18, 2011

I used to read IBTP, can’t remember if I ever commented there or not. I’ve commented on RATM, though. I wish that I could stop going to the gyn because something humiliating nearly always happens but last year there were abnormal cells on my smear and that scared me. They tested for HPV and that was neg but it still spooked me into getting checked out yearly.

34. FAB Libber - March 19, 2011

I am well overdue for my 10,000 mile check up with the Lady Parts Doctor.

At your age, not so bad to miss a few, I always did. At my age, probably not so wise.

35. FAB Libber - March 19, 2011

they are prepared to forego their own pleasure to ensure their partners return to them.

That kind of assumes that the majority of women would find regular (lubed) PIV pleasurable to begin with, instead of duty. The second part of that outlines what is at stake “to ensure their partners return” is another way of saying “he WILL leave if she does not comply”.

Same with mandatory PIV in het relationships, there is a big chance he will leave if she cuts off supply. The above situation just upped the ante by 1,000 (in the pain/duty stakes).

There probably is no end to the pain dudes want to inflict on women. They seem to keep upping the ante.

36. rhondda - March 19, 2011

One day when I had a pap smear my male doctor said it was like maintenance and I thought what am I a car? I hadn’t had piv sex in years and yet he always asked if I was “sexually active” What the hell does that mean? PIV, I assume. Also, I tell you it felt as if I was in a personal porn movie for him. Then I figured out that in getting this kind of exam, he got more money. (I live in Canada, the doctors know how to milk the system.)Get the stupid broads to come in and claim a half hour for a 5 minute exam. That was over 4 years ago. Oh and make sure the reception are so shocked that you have declined the generous offer of some fucking asshole to stick his fingers in you when there is nothing wrong, because oh cancer can strike you down at any time. They suggest it all the time, so maybe it becomes a reality and they can be heroes. You know the power of suggestion.
One fucking doctor wanted to do a colonoscopy for my hemorrhoids. Hello, that is the other end. Oh yeah, I forgot, they get alot for that too and get to play with technical toys also. Boy are they offended when you question them. Herbs have cured my hemorrhoids. I could hardly believe it.

FCM - March 19, 2011

ah RATM. i knew your name looked familiar. it makes me laff. thanks!

also, ms. citrus (i think?) wrote something here about always being humiliated at the gyn. not “feeling” humiliated, actually BEING humiliated, by something the doctor did or said. someone else wrote an entire article on it, i think it was on “chicks dig me” where the doc said in a disgusted tone, “you have a lot of discharge” during the exam. she was horrified because her vagina always self-lubricated when she went to the gyno, and the doc not only NOTICED, but SAID SOMETHING. i cannot for the life of me think why “you have a lot of discharge” needed to be said, in the middle of the exam. someone else commented that she believed that vaginas self-lubricate when they know they are about to be violently penetrated, as an act of self-defense, and this includes lubricating before rape. i thought that was very interesting.

FCM - March 19, 2011

regarding gyns framing PIV as “sex” i would say this falls SQUARELY into conflicts-of-interests territory. THEY make the money when women get infections, THEY make their entire livings off of it in fact, that and pre-natal checkups and delivering babies. DUH! a healthy vag (BILLIONS OF THEM WORLDWIDE) is exactly what they DONT want.

FCM - March 19, 2011

oh HELL NO. check out this comment from IBTP (on YET ANOTHER femininity post):

[…]The point is there is no “femininity” so to speak. They are just under-privileged, poor women who are used and abused for their constant, uncompensated labour. The men are oppressed too of course (although they will always have the upper hand over the women here), but what separates them is biology. Not femininity.

What separates them is the cultural script of Male-Over-Female. Which is based on what they’ve got between their legs. Which is, primarily, based on the unique vulnerability of the female body to the male body.


is there an echo in here?

FCM - March 19, 2011

i am not saying that i invented the concept…and the words *do* sound appealing when put together in that exact way. which is why *i* used these exact words, in that exact order, about a month ago on scum-o-rama:

you all know my schtick by now! PIV- and trans-criticism overlap alot actually. this is not a coincidence, at all.

the unique vulnerability of female bodies to male bodies (and therefore females being uniquely oppressed AS WOMEN, BY MEN) is at the heart and soul of everything that matters to women as a sexual class, around the world. it defines this class. it describes and defines a unique struggle, and shines a bright light on the ways that men ACTIVELY exploit women as women, because they are men. yes i said it! even “the good ones”(TM) do it, ACTIVELY. not “just” passively. male bodied persons ACTIVELY. UNIQUELY. HARM. WOMEN. they are a THREAT.

FAAB itself, as a category, appears to represent all bodies that cannot cause female-specific harm. not all of them can BE harmed (if they arent impregnable). but NONE of them can CAUSE female-specific harm.

thats left up exclusively to MAABs. now tell me that MAAB means NOTHING too. sure it doesnt!


i am sorry, but seeing my exact words used on another blog…especially in an argument about “femininity” with IBTP…omg. ITS TOO WEIRD!

37. thebewilderness - March 19, 2011

WTF do they mean by “partner”? Those doodz are so not their partners in any way shape or form. They are consumers, users, johns, not partners.
The language of that piece is absurd.

FCM - March 19, 2011

ok i am over myself now. carry on!

38. FAB Libber - March 19, 2011

WTF do they mean by “partner”?

The first part was talking about women in het relationships, the latter part about women in prostitution. Bascially they are saying the practice is mainstream.

Go read it, it’s only short.

FCM - March 19, 2011

partners, ah yes. i recently had that same sense of partnership, with a kleenex. last time i blew my nose into one.

whats with all the euphemisms? jfc. raygunslinger wrote about the sex-pozzie euphemisms too, and nailed it:


nobody can name any of this shit. they just will not say it. sam from genderberg once linked to an article on some kiddie pron ring where the investigators reported that they had seized images showing “child abuse, where some of the children died during the abuse.” they just couldnt say that the kids were tortured to death, and intentionally raped and then murdered, by men. they will call it just about everything else, except what it actually is. its stunning, it really is.

39. FAB Libber - March 19, 2011

The article was originally in The Lancet in 1998 (apparently).

The overall tone is bad really, because it is trying to blame ALL the women for the spread of HIV, when it is the dudes insisting on it – or they will leave, or they won’t pay, respectively.

40. thebewilderness - March 19, 2011

Sorry! I get chuffed sometimes.

41. maggie - March 19, 2011

I have to agree about the language used in the piece. And now I know it’s from the Lancet that confirms it. It’s use of the words ‘willingly’ ‘hot, tight and dry’ all titillating. I bet some doctors get off on that stuff.

The last ‘exam’ I had was when the consultant said before commencing ‘No one likes doing these’. And a nurse was present. It was humiliating. I was in my mid forties then. Obviously well beyond my sell by date. No consultant ever said that when I was younger and had ‘exams’.

That link to rayslinger is good – read it before. Off to do so again.

42. Undercover Punk - March 19, 2011

That “hot, tight, and dry” penetration business makes me feel sick. It really does. That’s all I have to say.

FCM - March 19, 2011

yes me too UP. and right after i said that trigger warnings arent necessary. heh. it certainly seems like men are constantly trying to out-do themselves doesnt it? it really scares me to think about what they will come up with next. it really fucking does.

43. Sargassosea - March 19, 2011

They’re using machines.

FCM - March 19, 2011

also, this was in my inbox this morning:

OMG I’m SO sorry! I should have credited you with that. The unique vulnerability thing of female to male.

I feel like such a dumbass.

I’ve even been using it in the staff room where I work when we get into discussions of a female nature. Heh.

I’m really sorry, again. It’s just – SO FUCKING TRUE it’s not even funny. And IBTP is pissing me off. WTF is “femaleness”? Uff.

Also – that concept was a game-changer for me. Suddenly everything fell into place. I had understood the idea before in a basic kind of way i.e. “put the average man and the average woman in a room/on the moon alone and who do you think will be a danger to who?” but the way you put it in that sentence has been resonating in my entire brain since then.

Whew. Anyway I will credit you next time (if you’d prefer). Xoxo,

well, thank you for that! but to be clear, seeing my exact words coming out of someone else, somewhere else, is weird, but its not a matter of “giving credit” i dont think. i still cannot believe that so many people are reading. thats the thing. (this blog as nearly a quarter-million hits. one-million is some kind of a holy grail for bloggers, from what i have heard, and most blogs will never see it). and not only reading, but remembering. exactly recalling my exact words, photographically. as a writer, this is a very positive affirmation, because this is the point of stringing words together in a certain way. its partially about the rhythm of the words and how they look and feel on the page. and its about writing things that are actually *interesting* for people to read, so they arent bored to death. the conversations that have sprung up here and other places are the only thing i find truly engaging and interesting, out of everything i see and read and experience in a day. i mean that sincerely.

and “intellectual property” isnt my concern, because i am not doing any of this for money. i think thats key, i really do. capitalist/materialist concerns are antithetical to spreading the message far and wide, which is what radical feminist writers actually want. they want women to be free. everywhere. the thing with the career-trackers and the fun-fems is, if real feminism ever suceeded, they would all be out of a job. and they all know it. radfems do not have the same conflicts of interest. theres no radical feminist career-track, theres just no such thing. “radical feminist” is a perspective that you take with you, but you have to cultivate other skills if you want to actually eat and pay bills and stuff. dworkin worked as a prostitute for a time, and somehow managed to not commit suicide (or homicide) being in such dire straights. she slept on peoples couches and ate other peoples leftovers and handouts while she was writing “woman hating” and just starting her speaking gigs. i do not think i could do what she did. i am allergic to gluten ffs. i have to prepare all my own meals, from scratch, in my own uncontaminated kitchen!! and i HATE PEANUT BUTTER, especially the cheap kind. that shit will kill you, or give you diabetes if eaten as a staple, as its almost PURE SUGAR.

i think anonymous radfem blogging is an awesome compromise actually. you get to live (and live in) your perspective, but it doesnt pay, and it never will (since you cant make money anonymously, thanks IRS!) so you have to find another way to support yourself, and NEVER have to compromise on your perspective, as long as you keep writing on your own blog. i wonder what the original radfems would think about this arrangement? dworkin might have liked it, as she mentions in her memoir that her editors wouldnt let her write in her natural style, and the style that SHE felt best communicated her message (which interestingly enough, was to write in all lower-case letters, and to only use punctuation as needed, not following any RULEZ. like me!)

so anyway, this was all very meta, and was probably only interesting to ME. sorry bout that! carry on!

44. FAB Libber - March 19, 2011

You are right about the anonymous thing, and that most if not all of us are not in it for “fame”. It is a way of thinking, and viewing the world, and hopefully to get others thinking about things beyond a superficial and simplistic level, or away from the male pov.

Radical feminism has more of a collective thought mentality. I guess it is just nice to give a hat tip to those thoughts or passages that really nail it. Sometimes it just is not possible to keep track of where thoughts or passages come from.

I actually feel some pride and sense of accomplishment when I see my stuff used again, sometimes years later. You know you have contributed to the radfem cause.

FCM - March 19, 2011

They’re using machines.

i probably dont want to know, but i will ask anyway. are we talking fuck-bots? meat grinders? what kind of machines?

45. FCM - March 19, 2011

I guess it is just nice to give a hat tip to those thoughts or passages that really nail it. Sometimes it just is not possible to keep track of where thoughts or passages come from.

yes, links are what makes the internet go round. incidentally, jill published my trackback when i quoted her on scum-o-rama, but when i quote her from here, my trackbacks go in the trash. funny right? whats the difference? or, does miska (and therefore scum-o-rama) have more blamer-cred than i do? i have never commented on IBTP i mean twistys (grad)student-lounge, and i never will. just thinking about it stresses me out. especially now. sheesh!

FCM - March 19, 2011

the term “mission creep” comes to mind actually:

Mission creep is the expansion of a project or mission beyond its original goals, often after initial successes.[1] The term often implies a certain disapproval of newly adopted goals by the user of the term. Mission creep is usually considered undesirable due to the dangerous path of each success breeding more ambitious attempts, only stopping when a final, often catastrophic, failure occurs. The term was originally applied exclusively to military operations, but has recently been applied to many different fields.


which is similar to the anonymous radfem blogger dilemma: the constant anxiety that something bad is going to happen, if this shit falls into the wrong hands. am i wrong? this shit takes on a life of its own, or it can, once its put out for public consumption. and that never stops being terrifying.

46. Sargasso Sea - March 19, 2011

Fuck-bots, yes. Not to take the place of real live women, of course.

The author of this *piece* laments the loss of jobs for the “woodsmen” in porn.

I’ll link but it’s really not for the faint of heart (in other words: trigger warning)

47. maggie - March 19, 2011

Certainly not for the faint of heart. Trigger warnings perhaps ahead. Apologies.

It seems to me that when you try to encompass all sexuality (which means all enduring PIV or what seems to be the norm now PIA back to PIV and so forth and so forth – dirty sex indeed!), then we actually do see that the male imagination when it comes to ‘sex’ holds no bounds. They will do anything, trespass anywhere, do any animal, human – at any stage of life – in order to continue PIV excitement. Trade in the older woman for the younger one to continue, regardless of the money, pain to children, loss of home etc.

Which leads me to conclude that PIV is not as exciting as it’s purported to be. Not even to the men.

FCM - March 19, 2011

ok i have seen that “they shoot porn stars” site before, whats it all about? i cant stand to be there long enough to figure it out. anyone?

48. Sargassosea - March 19, 2011

You’ll notice the name in the link leaves out the word “porn” before the “stars”…

Anyway, this woman is a shill who has written for a lot of malestream rags. This particular bit (for Playboy, I think) is a slick essay on the effects of the economic downturn on the US West coast porn industry. Its focus is on the *layoffs* of the male ‘actors’.

They are being replaced by machines some sick fuck puts together in his garage and hordes of porn fans.

49. rhondda - March 19, 2011

I have not been there, but I did go to porn sites once to find out if it was true that they are women hating. Well, yes they are. It took me a few days to purge the images and regain a sense worth. I don’t recommend it, but if you are in doubt, well, that will cure it.

FCM - March 19, 2011

my porn-viewing days were mostly pre-internet. but its true that you cant un-see this shit. i wish i could! and ABSOLUTELY, it takes time to “purge the images and regain a sense of worth”. YES, it does. well said rhondda.

50. maggie - March 20, 2011

“let’s talk about porn. A great triumph of spin has occurred since the 70s, when feisty feminists briefly succeeded in sending pornography to the top shelf or under the mattress. These days if you speak out against pornography you’re so, like, 20th century! I realise it’s not cool to frown on sexualised images of (mainly) women, but I really do struggle to see what they have to offer my sex apart from mild titillation. Don’t get me wrong: I’m all for being turned on. But forced to chose between my own fleeting pleasure and the insidious impact of hardcore pornography on global attitudes to my sisters and there’s no contest. In a world where one in five of us will be raped in our lifetime and sexual violence continues to be a weapon of aggression in war and peace, just saying no to anything that might contribute to the continuing objectification of women seems the most sensible option. Most porn isn’t made with us in mind anyway judging by the endless pumping, grinding scenes of copulation where severe cystitis rather than an orgasm are the most likely outcome for the female of the species!”

This from the Guardian’s ‘life and style/relationships’ Mariella Frostrup’s column, which today is about Pornography. Of course the comments below are predictable and depressing, along the lines of ‘he’s more into pornography than you, move on’. Heaven forbid that left liberal dickwads would criticise the man and his use of pornography.

51. FAB Libber - March 20, 2011

This particular bit (for Playboy, I think) is a slick essay on the effects of the economic downturn on the US West coast porn industry. Its focus is on the *layoffs* of the male ‘actors’.

Bizarre that it is, I read a couple of pages. On the first/second page it talks about the YW crying in distress.

The author seems to be oblivious to women’s pain as well. I guess that is what watching so much porn does to you. It becomes normalised, and you cannot see anything wrong with it.

FCM - March 20, 2011

yes, we must never criticize men or pornography for any reason rhondda! thats rule one didnt you know?

i am glad this author mentions cystitis (bladder infections). she is absolutely right of course, and women know this. i know they do. but MEN and male-identified women are perfectly happy to continue conflating PIV and sex…AND conflating porn with masturbation, and then saying “but theres nothing wrong with masturbation porn its healthy!!11!1!!” HELLO! porn and masturbation are not the same thing. masturbation IS healthy (or at least, its not “unhealthy” and its a hell of a lot safer than penetrative sex, expecially for women) porn isnt. or at least, its a completely seperate analysis. this is one of the biggest crocks ive seen lately, and they all do it. see the “mansplaining porn” post for more on that.

52. cherryblossomlife - March 20, 2011

Since I read this post a few days ago the main thing that stood out for me was your point about female isolation being systemic and how your grandmother subconciously groomed her children to fly far away from the nest.

It disturbed me because I’ve also fallen into the trap of thinking that the mark of a good mother is how well she trains her children not to rely on her. BUt this is in fact misogynistic thinking insofar as it represents the patriarchal distain for the mother-child bond. A “good” mother is one who doesn’t ask anything of her adult children, and who certainly doesn’t expect them to live near her in order that the two generations can help one another.

53. maggie - March 20, 2011

I’ve told my children that they can stay with me as long as they want. I will not judge them. Anyway in today’s society with the odds stacked firmly against first time buyers, I fully expect them to return to the nest once university is over. This seems to be the norm. Kicking women out of the home just makes them even more reliant on the men. I did read somewhere that statistics show that daughters are discourgaed more than sons to return back home. Well I’m not complying with THAT insidious misogynistic nonsense. I love my children and they’ll be my children for the rest of my life. If they want to stay they can. End of.

thanks FCM> I’ve read the mansplaining porn post, so good I’m off there once more.

FCM - March 20, 2011

re patriarchy hating the mother-child bond….well yes, BUT men are allowed to suck off the maternal teat for as long as is necessary AND LONGER if need be, arent they? hugh hefner cops to having suckled off his mother as an adult man…he makes it sound like it was nothing of course, and gives her very little credit for launching his entire fucking empire by putting her own security on the line: “all i started out with was a dream, and a $1000 loan from mom!” he says in a recent commercial. oh thats great hef! you did it all on your own, then? good, thats what we all wanted to hear.

FCM - March 20, 2011

white anti-racist activist tim wise did the same damn thing, by USING his mother and grandmother AS AN ADULT MAN, and then crediting his WHITE PRIVILEGE for his success in life, of course saying nothing about his MALE privilege, or even acknowledging the role his female relatives played in getting him into the authoriatrian and well-paid position he is in, today. see the “white male activist intersectionality fail” post for more on that.

54. FAB Libber - March 20, 2011

BUT men are allowed to suck off the maternal teat for as long as is necessary AND LONGER if need be, arent they?

It is regarded as legitimate when dudes can’t con some woman to be their slave wifey.

It is every dude’s ‘right’ to have his own personal female slave.

55. Sargassosea - March 20, 2011

Our neighbor has 3 adult sons leeching off of her. Not one of them lifts a finger to do anything; they send her out at 6 am to buy beer for them because they are too busy gaming. And she does it.

This woman has developed a sort of Munchausen-by-proxy as a way to excuse the lameness of these men children. My mom did the same thing with her son.

Our daughter will always be welcome in our family (home) and she knows it.

56. Loretta Kemsley - March 20, 2011

The original clans, back in prehistory, were matrifocal clans with Grandma gathering her progeny around her for safety and prosperity. Grandfathers weren’t part of the structure.

The “Grandmother Effect” is known as the reason why human babies (with their extended years needed to grow to maturity) were able to survive: the generations working together to insure wellbeing for all members of the matrifocal family.

Of course, for patriarchy to keep women oppressed, this intergenerational support system can’t be allowed to survive, thus the children suffer and even die without the caring wisdom of the grandmothers.

Is there any clearer way of showing that patriarchal values are not “family values”?

FCM - March 20, 2011

well said loretta. lefty women are finally calling bullshit on “pro-lifers” who dont care about children AFTER they are born…but in reality, lefty men dont care about them either. if they did, none of them would allow (and indeed INSIST ON) seperating women from their families when they get married. grandmothers, to the extent they are referred to at all, are the “MONSTER IN LAW” who cuts the men off at the knees unfairly, or gets in between the husband and wife to the point that the WIFE has to tell her to stop…because its the only way to get the dood to stop moping, or being abusive, because hes UNHAPPY about the arrangement, and about MIL’s involvement. or…the wife cant handle the fucking truth about the loser she married.

FCM - March 20, 2011

again i am reminded of endora on bewitched! 😛 LOVE HER!

FCM - March 20, 2011

re s4’s daughter reading…and to others…should this site be rated R or PG? i was just looking over my settings, and i had initially set it to R, but at the moment that is really making me angry. we arent being “racy” here. what say you?

FCM - March 20, 2011

according to wordpress, R is 17+ and PG is “possibly offensive, 13+”.

57. FAB Libber - March 20, 2011

Of course, for patriarchy to keep women oppressed, this intergenerational support system can’t be allowed to survive, thus the children suffer and even die without the caring wisdom of the grandmothers.

Is there any clearer way of showing that patriarchal values are not “family values”?

Yes indeed, sadly true. 😦

Also it breaks the knowledge link of generations, with grandmothers having more knowledge than their daughters to aid them raising the kids (and all sorts of guidance). This probably explains why recent generations are so completely fucked up, and we are living in a society of adolescent type behaviour, there is little wisdom from the elders being passed down.

because its the only way to get the dood to stop moping, or being abusive, because hes UNHAPPY about the arrangement, and about MIL’s involvement. or…the wife cant handle the fucking truth about the loser she married.

More that the dude does not want to be exposed as the abuser / adult child that he is, and a MIL would point that out – older women see through male behaviour much more readily. I don’t think it is because the daughter would necessarily not believe her mother, not unless the mother-daughter bond has been damaged by deliberate separation (which is what patriarchy does).

58. FAB Libber - March 20, 2011

should this site be rated R or PG?

PG I would have thought. It’s not porn.

FCM - March 20, 2011

i changed it to PG. initially i had set it to R because i didnt want any trouble but you know what? FUCK THAT. this isnt offensive. and to the extent that we DISCUSS offensive MATERIAL, we are critiquing it, not promoting it. there is FOUL LANGUAGE here though, i wont deny that. especially from sheila!

FCM - March 20, 2011

well i think mothers have a major crediiblity problem under the current system. i mean really. look at the fucking assholes THEY married!

59. FAB Libber - March 20, 2011

look at the fucking assholes THEY married!
There is not much to be had in the way of good pickings from the Nigel-pool.

60. Sargassosea - March 20, 2011

Real life is *rated R*, is the motto around here.

I see no reason why this blog should not be rated G. If a current popular animated feature film can be rated PG while containing scenes in which our protagonist touches and kisses an unconscious female character then certainly anything we say here can not be anywhere near approaching the profane.

61. FAB Libber - March 20, 2011

Part of the target audience are actually teenage girls, to let them know there is another way, outside of mandatory piv and pornulated boyfriends.

FCM - March 20, 2011

I’m sure that Disneys snow white from 1950 or whatever is rated G, and it shows exactly that s4. Which one are you talking about? I’m really behind on what’s playing in the theaters.

62. Loretta Kemsley - March 20, 2011

In recent days, I’ve had reason to consider why women on my maternal line made the decisions they did. In light of their history, some only recently learned, I’ve consulted various psych possibilities. Trauma bonding, of course, and Stockholm Syndrome. When looking at the latter through the eyes of “traditional marriage,” their reasons become apparent, especially considering the pressures of society via “whoredom,” lack of educational and career opportunities, etc.

Take a look at list under the section titled “Development,”


Then compare it to a society with grandmother clans where the men in the clan are not the owners/sex partners of the women but maternally-related to the women. This is why we need to move to a matrifocused society which is traditionally egalitarian rather than oppressive.

FCM - March 20, 2011

Yes fabL, that’s exactly who I hope to reach. I guess if their parents are so concerned, they will have a keyword filter on anyway, which would block any info on oh say breast cancer and sexually transmitted diseases too, even if it were rated G. This blog is now safe for 13 and up! Rejoice!

63. Sargassosea - March 20, 2011

“Part of the target audience are actually teenage girls,”

Yes, yes, yes. And, YES!

Rango. We figured it would be the least offensive flick playing at the 14 screen theatre. And it probably was, sadly.

Also, I’m pretty sure the Hays Code ruled the day back then but I learned all that arcane stuff a long time ago so I could be full of it.

FCM - March 20, 2011

What’s the hays code? I see a Google search in my future

FCM - March 20, 2011

from lorettas link:

Research has suggested that hostages may exhibit the condition in situations that feature captors who do not abuse the victim, a long duration before resolution, continued contact between the perpetrator and hostage, and a high level of emotion. In fact, experts have concluded that the intensity, not the length of the incident, combined with a lack of physical abuse more likely will create favorable conditions for the development of Stockholm syndrome.

The following are viewed as the conditions necessary for Stockholm syndrome to occur:

Hostages who develop Stockholm syndrome often view the perpetrator as giving life by simply not taking it. In this sense, the captor becomes the person in control of the captive’s basic needs for survival and the victim’s life itself.

The hostage endures isolation from other people and has only the captor’s perspective available. Perpetrators routinely keep information about the outside world’s response to their actions from captives to keep them totally dependent.

The hostage taker threatens to kill the victim and gives the perception of having the capability to do so. The captive judges it safer to align with the perpetrator, endure the hardship of captivity, and comply with the captor than to resist and face death.

The captive sees the perpetrator as showing some degree of kindness. Kindness serves as the cornerstone of Stockholm syndrome; the condition will not develop unless the captor exhibits it in some form toward the hostage. However, captives often misinterpret a lack of abuse as kindness and may develop feelings of appreciation for this perceived benevolence. If the captor is purely evil and abusive, the hostage will respond with hatred. But, if perpetrators show some kindness, victims will submerge the anger they feel in response to the terror and concentrate on the captors’ “good side” to protect themselves.

In cases where Stockholm syndrome has occurred, the captive is in a situation where the captor has stripped nearly all forms of independence and gained control of the victim’s life, as well as basic needs for survival. Some experts say that the hostage regresses to, perhaps, a state of infancy; the captive must cry for food, remain silent, and exist in an extreme state of dependence. In contrast, the perpetrator serves as a ‘mother’ figure protecting the ‘child’ from a threatening outside world, including law enforcement’s deadly weapons. The victim then begins a struggle for survival, both relying on and identifying with the captor. Possibly, hostages’ motivation to live outweighs their impulse to hate the person who created their dilemma.

traditional marriage about covers it doesnt it? sheesh. no wonder men hate MONSTERS IN LAW so much.

64. maggie - March 20, 2011

You can be sure that teenagers are accessing porn so I think this should be part of “the sanctuary” on the web. PG at the very least. I’d LOVE my teenage daughters to read this and digest. Would make their lives so easier. And much more transparent. And they would see life as uncluttered, with goals ahead with no complications.

I would want my mini nigel to view this site and think. WOW. I want that so much. In fact I’m sure he would come to this conclusion. He spends little time as it is with his ‘immature and selfish’ dad. His quote btw and he’s 9. Fingers crossed. For his happiness in the future. I want that. For him and my daughters.

When I was nine I thought when I grow up women will be equal. Already knew by then the odds where stacked against me. Now 41 years later I’m fingers crossed that my daughters will have equality in their lifetime. I hope to be old and joining in the celebrations with them. I never give up.

Rad fems are brilliant. No doubt about it.

65. Loretta Kemsley - March 20, 2011

The Hayes Code was a movie rating system designed in the 1930s as a response to the nudity in early films. Some of our biggest female stars began with extended nude scenes, like the nude swimming scene in the first Tarzan movie. The star didn’t actually do the scene because it was underwater. An Olympic swimmer played her character in that scene, but she (I believe it was Maureen O’hara if I remember right) also was seen nude when she left the water and went into the foliage to dress.

Another movie opened with the woman riding her horse, then undressing to swim, leaving her clothes on the horse. The horse wandered off, taking her clothes. So the opening, which lasted about five minutes, was her in the nude chasing the horse across country. Of course, the “hero” catches the horse and she has to approach him to get her clothes back.

So the Hayes Code was developed to curtial this obscenity. Every film had to be cleared by them. They had ridiculous things like married couples could only be seen in a bedroom with twin beds and no one could be seen on a bed unless one foot was touching the floor. They were the people who tried to stop Lucy from appearing on TV while pregnant.

66. Loretta Kemsley - March 20, 2011

As to the teens debate: weren’t the women here lamenting awhile back that the older women never told the truth about PIV? Well, now we’re the older women and we’re speaking the truth. If it was an important part we weren’t able to access in our youth, we’re doing our part to ensure that lack doesn’t happen again.

67. Loretta Kemsley - March 20, 2011

Another thought: Was Dworkin, Daly, et al, kept from the teens or given an R rating?

FCM - March 20, 2011

i imagine there were access problems when it came to radfem books, depending on where you lived (and probably still are). and i have heard that dworkins book “pornography” was stopped at the canadian border, once they passed their anti-porn legislation? i dont have any details on that. i have been purchasing used books from amazon, and i am very happy i didnt have to rely on a library to get the titles i wanted.

does anyone know how wordpress ratings even work? was anyone asked to verify their age (for example) when accessing this blog for the first time? maybe they only really control x ratings? i really have no idea. i hope that noone was denied access to anything here, just because i had it on an R rating.

68. Loretta Kemsley - March 20, 2011

I was never asked for my age.

FCM - March 20, 2011

then i wonder what the point is of rating them at all? i have been asked to verify my age on some blogger sites (i hate blogger!) but never on wordpress. and i think it only asked me to verify that i was over 13 if i recall, which is only a PG rating.

69. Loretta Kemsley - March 20, 2011

Maybe its for parental control software.

70. feministatsea - March 21, 2011

“* i would throw in a hat-tip to the genital-contact-having PIV-abstinent het couples out there too…if i actually believed there were any. ”

I don’t know if there are. I no longer couple up with men. I only have sex with them. However PIV is no longer on the table with me either and not being in a relationship makes that easier. For some reason there is more pressure from one particular guy if you are in a monogamous relationship with him than if he knows he’s not the only one and is replaceable.

FCM - March 21, 2011

I would think that a keyword filter would be more effective than any individual Bloggers self-rating of their own content. This site is probably blocked from all computers that have any keyword filter in place, at all. Which is unfortunate. It would be blocked for the language alone!

Which of course makes no fucking sense, at all. A pedo could easily set up a kp site that would pass, but if WE wrote an article criticizing pedos and actually NAMING what they do, or saying they are FUCKED UP, we would be blocked. It’s a right tidy package set up by sexually abusive piv-entitled men to benefit themselves…is it not?

71. cherryblossomlife - March 21, 2011

A tidy package. Yes. And going back to what we were saying about the mother-child bond, which is despised under patriarchy *unless* it benefits men, in which case it is milked for all it’s worth, where we see them getting their mothers to take out loans for them, buy their beer for them etc The patriarchy hasn’t left a stone unturned. IF something is good and nice for women it is despised unless it benefits men in some way in which case it is tolerated. It goes beyond oppression, they don’t just want to oppress. It runs deeper. They want to control every last bit of us.

FCM - March 21, 2011

Cherryblossom, that was very well said.

72. Noanodyne - March 21, 2011

Fascinating post about your conversation with your mom, FCM. It put me in mind of all kinds of generational things, like wondering about the experiences my mother and grandmothers had. I’ve often wondered how rare it’s been for women of various generations to have orgasms and/or to actually enjoy being in their bodies during coupled sex with men, with no pressure for PIV, no coercion, no fear, no pain, etc. I feel a huge sadness when I think about that.

73. veganprimate - March 21, 2011

I gathered from the rare comments my grandmother made that PIV was not pleasurable at all and she found having to tolerate it to be one of the biggest burdens of her life.

It pains me to think about how this whole viagra thing has taken away the one bright spot in many older women’s lives.

74. rhondda - March 21, 2011

Yes, Noanodyne, I feel alot of sadness too. When I read Dworkin’s Intercourse and she talked about Tolstoy’s wife Sophia and her memoirs of just wanting some love and this man is regarded as the great Christian I thought of my mom. I look at pictures of her when she was in love and then I remember the very sad, duty bound woman I knew. My dad thought he was a great Christian, but the reality was it was all in his head and he treated her like shit.

75. cherryblossomlife - March 22, 2011

Tolstoy’s wife was treated like shit. She was a very talented writer herself and we can see this in her own memoirs which have recently been re-published. SHe copy-edited her husband’s work numerous times for him (for free) and who knows how much of her own talent is in there.
She was very young when she married him and gave him *thirteen* children, then, when she was older her derided her looks, her behaviour, and he eventually ended up joining some political group or other and his new mates wouldn’t even allow her visit him on his deathbed.

FCM - March 23, 2011

just as an fyi, wordpress has been read-only for the past several hours, and comments werent going through. so, if you posted anything this evening and it didnt go through, it wont. try again. thanks!

76. Sargasso Sea - March 23, 2011

“My dad thought he was a great Christian, but the reality was it was all in his head and he treated her like shit.”

Great Christian men are required to treat women like shit.

I swear the earliest pomos on record were those folks who malestreamed the “Jesus” mythology. You know, since he died for your sins everything is all hunky-dory now! So shut the fuck up already about your oppression (unless you’re a M2T, of course)!

77. m Andrea - March 23, 2011

FactCheckMe, you are just superb. Thank you.

78. m Andrea - March 23, 2011

Btw, I’m afraid to log in anywhere. Even though my software claims to have dumped the keylogger trogan, I’m not convinced yet.

79. Sargasso Sea - March 23, 2011

(there must be a life of brian clip for this…)

80. rhondda - March 23, 2011

The thing about Christianity which gets women is all the talk of love. Daly has convinced me that the talk is all about the love of men for men with the idea that god is the intermediary. They use women to to confirm their manliness by this abstract idea of god. They convince women of this sublimated god and we buy it, because we actually know what love is and are distracted and confused by all the jabbering. The devil is in the distraction of abstraction. Real love is felt within the body. Christianity removes love from the body calling it sin. Love is not an intellectual abstraction. Neither is it exploitation of the body. It is a profound vulnerability. Anyone who has loved and been hurt, knows this.

81. maggie - March 23, 2011

Rhonda. That was beautiful. Especially:

The devil is in the distraction of abstraction.

FCM I love this blog.

82. cherryblossomlife - March 24, 2011

that was beautiful, Rhondda. so.. if I’ve understood it right: women know what love is, probably better than men, and love and the body cannot be separated. Yes, that makes perfect sense.
But Christianity comes along and (probably out of jealousy of women’s ability to love, and the fact that women clearly understand what love is, whereas many men actually don’t) it tries to turn love into a dryasdust abstract concept. Once again women’s truth is severed from them and by a leap of faith we are supposed to believe in this academic abstract man-made love

FCM - March 24, 2011

i have a new graphic up at SOR….its a preview to RWW part 3. enjoy!


83. rhondda - March 25, 2011

Thanks Cherryblossomlife. That is it.

84. Savage Rabbit - March 25, 2011

Huh. It’s weird to hear about friendly conversations other people have with their mothers. I can only have a “friendly” conversation with mine when I don’t ever say anything, and this is still several years after moving out. Then again, I try to limit my contact with most of my family. I’m glad to see that I’m the freak.

Yes, the separation/isolation was something we discussed too. She recently got together with her siblings to discuss some family business, and they started talking about how their mother groomed them all, even the boys, to leave the nest and fly far far away as soon as they were old enough. My mom got married when she was 17, and the rest of them pretty much followed her lead. They all had several kids that they raised alone, without ever helping each other out. They all blame my grandmother for “teaching them” this isolating pattern.

Yeah, that’s definitely not something individual to your grandmother. Most people I know had that; it’s basically a social requirement now, and it’s very hyperindividualistic/capitalistic. I’m not saying it wasn’t fucked up; just that your grandmother isn’t the only person ever to do this, and that she shouldn’t be held as the focal point to it. But it also seems to be a lot easier to blame individual people than it is to realize the society you live in is unhealthy.

By the way, I got told I was derailing my own blog today, and that I was very full of myself. It was funny.

85. rhondda - March 25, 2011

addendum Wouldn’t it be another world if men were not so focused on an ejaculation as the goal of sex. No wonder women turn to women. The skin is very sensuous too. The touch can say so much.

FCM - March 26, 2011

ok i put up more dworkin graphics over at SOR…in preparation for RWW 3 (which i will probably post tomorrow, here.) heres the link to SOR:


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