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Enthusiastic Dissent February 6, 2012

Posted by FCM in health, PIV, rape.
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i recently had a woman in my life ask me for advice.  she said that even though she told her husband she no longer wishes to have PIV, that he keeps bothering her about it, and even though her main reason for removing PIV from the table is menopause-related, in that PIV now causes her extreme pain and recurrent infections, he is getting increasingly and explicitly coercive.  she specifically asked for a list of arguments she might be able to use when he comes after her again, and she plans to stockpile them, essentially, like ammo.  if that doesnt give just the perfect mental picture, then i dont know what does.

so, heres what i said.  keeping in mind that i know some of the details of her situation, and that this is a custom-tailored list, heres what i came up with:

you could tell him that you arent a blowup doll and suggest that he get one.  or tell him you give him permission to get a girlfriend, and that you are sure there are plenty of young women that would love to have intercourse with him.  NOT.  or that no PIV is NOT a grounds for divorce in your state, so whats his point?  he is not asserting a real right here, just an imagined one.  [link to divorce law site]

as for his assertion that its your “right” as a woman to enthusiastically engage in PIV until you are 90, [HAHA!!  HE ACTUALLY SAID THAT TO HER] tell him ok fine, its your RIGHT and you are choosing not to assert your right in this instance.  ask him if “women” (women generally, including you) also have the right to refuse PIV, whether they are old or young?  if so, why?  if not, why not?  do his daughters have this right?  does his mother?

as for his being unable to get his head around “never having PIV again” tell him you dont control that, only he controls that.  all you are saying is that hes never going to have PIV with YOU again, and thats bc you arent ever going to have PIV again with anyone and that part of your life is over, and you are ok with that.

insist that YOU have the right to anally penetrate him with a dildo of whatever size YOU choose, and you dont care if it hurts him bc its your (MADE UP) right to do so and you are asserting it.  or, tell him that its your right to be married to a rich man and you are asserting that right, so he better start looking for a second job right away.  tell him you are a gold digger and you are tired of GOING WITHOUT.

tell him that intercourse is a scam that only very young women buy into because they dont know any better, and you arent young anymore and neither is your vagina.  tell him that yes, there are documented physical changes that occur with menopause.

heres a link:  http://www.medicinenet.com/vaginal_dryness_and_vaginal_atrophy/article.htm

that article says that the PIV-related symptoms can be minor or severe.  for minor symptoms, IF A WOMAN WANTS TO (which you dont) she can use a lube.  but if they are severe, the only treatment is hormone replacement therapy that has side effects and potential complications, up to and including death.  tell him that yours is severe, and you arent willing to take the risk OF DEATH in order to engage in PIV with him.  if he is willing to die from it, suggest that he take his blowup doll onto the freeway and take his chances.

then after thinking about it for another hour, i sent this one, because her partner prides himself in being a terrific family man who loves his children more than anything in the entire world, allegedly including his daughters:

next time he brings this up, stop the conversation immediately, and tell him to call his daughters RIGHT NOW and tell them that they do not have the right to refuse intercourse with men.  tell him to call his daughters RIGHT NOW and tell them that if a man does something to them that hurts, that they dont have the right to stop him, and tell them that if a man hurts them that they just need to let him keep hurting them.  tell them they will probably get used to it over time. [THATS WHAT HE SAID TO HER, THAT THE REASON IT ‘HURTS’ HER IS BC THEY DONT DO IT ENOUGH, THEREFORE TO ALLEVIATE THE PAIN THEY SHOULD DO IT MORE].

if he says that its different bc you are married, then tell him that you are going to call his daughters and tell them that they should never get married and tell them why.  then, tell him that the “right” to intercourse wasnt in your marriage vows.  just like you having the “right” to be married to a millionaire wasnt in your vows, and perhaps you shouldve both considered that before you got married.

some of these are nuclear, all are eminently reasonable.  thing is that i know none of them are going to work, if by “work” you mean they are actually going to convince a man, and get him to really, really feel it, that he doesnt deserve unfettered sexual access to a woman, and that its not, in fact, his god-given right as a man to have PIV on demand.  dood actually told her that HE DESERVES BETTER.  when the truth of the matter is that if he got what he deserved, he would have less than nothing, because thats what he deserves.  and he sure as hell doesnt deserve her, and everything shes done for him over the years, and all the ways his life is better for being with her, because she takes excellent care of him and excellent care of everything.

if only men got what they deserved.  if only.  the world as we know it would be unrecognizable.  and facing that beautiful new world, i think i’d turn cartwheels down the street until my hands bled, and then i’d wash the gravel out, and then….well, i think i would take a pillow and a blanket to the beach and sleep there for a week and think about what i would do with my life, because my work would be done.  and i would be so happy about that.  oh.  my.  god.  the happy.

Comments

1. Feuerwerferin - February 6, 2012

I do not know this man but I would tell her to be careful of martial rape. That is already a good reason to leave him. How creepy! He insists to have PIV over and over again although she does not desire it and it’s painful for her (let alone consent to it). This guy is a potential and maybe actual rapist and she should run away from him. Quickly!

2. maggie - February 6, 2012

Good post.

She could also add that he should be viewing her as a human being and not a sex object.

Men’s willies age too. In their teens to mid twenties their erections can hold a towel. As they age it’s a hand towel (next decade), face cloth, and it’s ends with a paper hankerchief.

Erectile dysfunction can strike a man at any age and the remedy is potentially life threatening (viagra etc).

If the tables were turned how would he feel if his wife insisted it was his right to have a sex life until he was 95 and to start swallowing pills. Would he feel objectified much like a stud?

FCM - February 6, 2012

Yes, she is already well aware of marital rape, she was being raped by her first husband before there was such a thing. So many women were, and continue to be, yet are still absolutely 100 percent expected and encouraged and required to engage in “consensual” piv within the context of that relationship, and in all subsequent relationships too. And the subsequent doods DO NOT CARE that they are pronging raped women, and they DO NOT CARE that the context in which they are pronging raped women is almost always coercive, to whatever degree. In this case, he is being explicitly coercive, having been unsuccessfully attempting to more subtly coerce her previously. Things are escalating, and he’s started using the explicit language of entitlement now too. I deserve this, I deserve that. It’s really frightening the things completely undeserving men believe they deserve. It’s appalling, and terrifying, and above all its a mass delusion they all suffer from. It’s just not true.

FCM - February 6, 2012

its also striking how unattractive, old men who have NO MONEY think they are entitled to PIV too. their wives are as old as they are and cant or wont do it anymore, and a richer man would just go off and get a younger mistress (often with the wives blessing, im sure, but often not too, whevs) or even get a new younger wife. but for old men with no money, no young woman is going to want to give them the time of day. why would they? poor and average men seem to have not gotten the memo that its often a business exchange, and THATS why they see OTHER OLD MEN with the arm candy gfs, not bc young women are extraordinarily attracted to disgusting old geezers rather than attractive, young, healthy men their own age. poor men are having a major issue with CLASS INEQUALITY and they want women the way rich men get women. but they cant.

3. JessMess - February 6, 2012

Oh dear Christ. This man sounds like a real knob. Dangerous, even. Everyone here has already said what I thought about it.

“insist that YOU have the right to anally penetrate him with a dildo of whatever size YOU choose, and you dont care if it hurts him”

LMFAO! Yeah, that sounds like an even trade to me!

Anecdote time. This is a testament to how desperate men are to have their PIV. My friend’s mom’s third husband was in his 70s and his dick wasn’t working but he still “needed” sex. He felt he was entitled to sex so fiercely that he had a fucking dick implant installed, complete with a remote to control the artificial erection!!!
The depths and lengths men will go through to have penetrative sex are fucking ridiculous. The entitlement that this man feels w/r/t his wife is disgusting. He doesn’t even care that PIV hurts her, he just wants to treat her like a moist hole instead of a human being (sorry if that was harsh).

Back to the old man….my friend’s mom (the wife of him) had to go out of town and she was worried that her husband would cheat on her (that’s how bad he wanted sex, apparently any hole would do) so my friend told her, “Mom, just take the remote with you” LOL!

4. maggie - February 6, 2012

That reminds me of a quote from Valerie Solanas’ SCUM manifesto

“No genuine social revolution can be accomplished by the male as all the male on top wants is the status quo and all the male on bottom wants is to be the male on top.”

FCM - February 6, 2012

omg. a remote controlled dick implant? i didnt even know they made such a thing. wtf?

FCM - February 6, 2012

yes maggie, thats exactly it. once again, solanas is completely right. everyone should read SCUM manifesto, seriously. she tells it like it is.

5. Witchwind - February 6, 2012

Hope the suggestions will have some results. Although the best solution, when possible, is to live as far away as possible from any rapist. I’ve heard this shit so many times. I don’t know ANY SINGLE female friend to whom this hasn’t happened.

If women don’t remain the “moist hole” they’re supposed to be (the only way through which men get to know women), the empty corpses for men to masturbate in, occupy and possess, then there’s the risk that she might become human, she might become the man’s equal, because she’s not the slave to be fucked anymore. She won’t be a “women” in the male sense: as something to fuck. That’s serious threat to male entitlement. That’s why men have historically been so intent on exterminating all the “unfuckubles”.

FCM - February 6, 2012

yes, its happened to every woman i know who has tried to end PIV in their relationship. the risk of pregnancy, extreme pain, the recurrent infections, the risk of hormone replacement therapies or the pill (ie. DEATH) risk of tears with vaginal atrophy, including fistula, none of it matters to so many men. they simply do not care.

6. FemmeForever - February 7, 2012

in that PIV now causes her extreme pain and recurrent infections, he is getting increasingly and explicitly coercive.

my friend’s mom (the wife of him) had to go out of town and she was worried that her husband would cheat on her (that’s how bad he wanted sex, apparently any hole would do)

My God. I’ll never ever understand why any woman thinks she has to put up with this shit.

the best solution, [which is usually possible], is to live as far away as possible from any rapist

Damn straight.

7. FemmeForever - February 7, 2012

It really, really isn’t the end of the world to be on your own. I promise. Swear even. It’s infinitely better than dealing with someone who hates you and wants to harm you in your own house.

8. JessMess - February 7, 2012

On a recent post on IBTP someone mentioned that the best cure for relationships with men is to be on your own for awhile. I agree.

FemmeForever–I never understand why women put up with that shit either. She was a woman who had to be married to a man at all times in her life, she went from one husband right to the next. So being married was a big part of her identity. I feel sorry for her.

9. tmi - February 7, 2012

Stockpiling weapons IS a telling metaphor. But it’s a bad way of dealing with the situation. He already knows these arguments. His blather isn’t really about facts, or logic, or rights or what he “deserves.” It is ALL about wearing her down until she’s tired enough to submit.

Any arguments she gives is only furthering his program, because it isn’t about the reasoning but about the effort he wants her to expend. She needs to refuse to engage, and, critically, she needs to expend less emotional energy in whatever interaction he forces.

As an example, my Nigel really wants me to shave.
N: You should shave your X.
Me: No I shouldn’t.
N: You should because X, Yadda yadda, Z.
Me: No.
N: I’d be so happy if you did.
Me: Sorry.
N: (Sulk.)
Me: (Laugh)
N: (Sulks. Drops it for another six months.)

FCM - February 7, 2012

yes thats true, its all about being gynergy-sucking vampires in every way, and in this instance the tactic works double-time as a way to physically and mentally disable her through exhaustion. he may as well be plying her with alcohol. in another context, one might be forgiven for thinking the dood is just acting like a little kid, bothering mom til he gets his way, and thats probably part of it bc men learn to do this from the time they are very young. but we all have to admit that in the context of PIV the conversation is different. we are talking about disabling women through various tactics and strategies, to gain sexual access thats unwanted by the woman. we are deeply into rape territory too.

10. T. Laurel Sulfate, Snarkurchin - February 8, 2012

“its also striking how unattractive, old men who have NO MONEY think they are entitled to PIV too..”

Not only PIV, but PIV from young women, or at least to be desired by younger women. Nothing creeps me out more than an old man trying to hold onto the vestiges of privilege by flirting with young female retail workers who are powerless to tell them to fuck off.

When I was young and worked in Kinko’s, one old man would come in every once in awhile with some invented copy job so he could “feel young again” by making me squirm. Apparently he couldn’t drive, so his wife brought him to the Kinko’s for his jollies and sat in the car with the motor running. And he was very careful to never let anyone else see him ‘flirt,” and to say nothing that couldn’t be construed as “innocent” or “just being nice.” UGH.

He got off on it. I don’t mean he was aroused, but it was very obvious that he enjoyed making me uncomfortable so he could “feel young” again AND that he thought i was a little idiot who didn’t know what he was doing.

I think it was on Feministe (yeah, I went there) that a commenter recently said something about how once you don’t want a relationship with a man anymore, you stop lying to yourself and stop finding men appealing in any way.

And you realize how much energy you wasted on denial for most of your life. (That part was me, not the other commentor.)

FCM - February 8, 2012

Holy crap, someone said something decent at feministe? Good on them.

11. Chonky - February 8, 2012

Soul atrophying, mind manipulating, oxygen sucking, truth doping dudes need to be vaporized already! *poooof

My dear women people, stay away from men whenever you are able. Their malicious behavior has devastating effects on women, children and all living beings.

Wish all of you were as fortunate as I was/ am, my dealings with men folk are limited and ON MY TERMS. The refusal of mixing with the men has enriched my very existence. We are smarter than them, we are more empathetic. My world is more harmonious without men on a diurnal basis.

Every time I move to a new area, one of the first things I do is search the local sexual offenders list. Voila! my new vehicle mechanic is registered with 4 counts of sexual lewdness with a minor. Oh yeah! These pervs are our neighbors, our uncles, our (mechanics), our fathers, our milkmen, our police, our ob/gyns and on and on and on.

Stay away from men! and sneer at little boys in the grocery store.🙂

12. FemmeForever - February 9, 2012

Stay away from men! and sneer at little boys in the grocery store.🙂

LOL! Thanks for that.

13. manda - February 9, 2012

I’ve learned something positivly beautiful from feminists on the internet. I learned that I don’t need to make excuses for not wanting PIV. What’s more, I learned to stop feeling guilty about it. It’s HARD though. My husband is a good man, and despite that is still a man who manipulates, pouts, gets angry and frustrated over sex – well, lack of. I did use the “Can I just put a carrot up your arse then?” and it worked! He never asked again.
Sex isn’t considered only PIV anymore. He’s not pressuring me for PIV anymore either. It seems as though some of the good ones can be trained after all. I have you feminists to thank though.🙂

14. Chonky - February 9, 2012

manda

I’ll never look at a Bugs Bunny cartoon the same after your comment.

Thanks-a-carrot-bunch! ;

15. FemmeForever - February 9, 2012

Some days I really wish we had an open thread here. I know this isn’t exactly on topic but I am so pissed about that JFK intern interview I can’t even… I tuned in to watch and after she described her rape (my word) she then went on to say how much she really didn’t mind being raped (again my word). I couldn’t watch another word after that. Am I surprised that the beloved prez was a rapist? No. Most, if not all, males are rapists. It’s just that they call the rape by some minimizing, negating, it’s-really-OK name like consensual sex. FUUUUCK I hate this world.

16. Yisheng Qingwa - February 14, 2012

I see the ‘divorce’ tag there… I sure hope she gets one from this POS.

17. Linda Radfem - February 14, 2012

I’m afraid for your friend, FCM. Afraid that over time he will become more and more abusive towards her, particularly if her confidence to assert herself flourishes, and definitely if she starts to look like leaving. It’s not unusual for older men to morph into domestic abusers even with no prior history. What he’s doing right now is domestic terrorism. I hope she has some kind of independent income.

FCM - February 14, 2012

She doesn’t have an independent source of income Linda. That’s part of the problem.

She’s reading here and appreciating the comments, so please keep them coming. 🙂

18. Elin - February 16, 2012

Instead of the the anally penetrating carrot/dildo argument, you could also simply tell him, more like a mirror image, so to speak, that it would be so hot to have a man do (various non-PIV-related things)… and JUST that… and that SO many men would want to do all of JUST that to you. *Without* PIV, ever. This implies that, if he does not want that, first, he is insane, odd, because not a “real man”, and second, you can always find another.

This, is a practical thing to say, not challenging patriarchy logically. However, since men are just empty vessels wanting to “perform” in some peer-approved way. It will *become* true if every women kept stubborn about this (to men).

Logic, it is great, great for educating women, and to dispute some men who actually managed the skill to write seemingly logical stuff that gets noticed. But in daily life? Men are irrational beings, and do not base their behaviour on logic.

What tmi said, it is not about arguments, but the effort.
But, do not only refuse effort to a man – give him the “reverse” effort.

They are way more vulnerable imposed effort than us, because their conformism is so high, and most do not know women at all, and do NOT know each other either, well not as well as women do… They are willing to extend endless effort just to be whatever is socially, and sexually, the “correct” manly thing to be, even if rationally so clearly against their interests (see their education failings).

19. witchwind - February 16, 2012

To alarm him about what he’s doing, perhaps I’d put words on it and say that if he insists to have intercourse when she doesn’t, it’s *rape*. Does he want to rape his wife? Does he want to be a rapist? And she could threaten to file a complaint against him to scare him a bit, or put him on the offender’s list or something. (is there a law against marital rape? I’m not encourageing to actually go to the cops though, they usually just inflict further verbal abuse or make fun of the women)

there might be a possiblity to come up with a sciencey argument that ejaculation, intercourse and male orgasm aren’t necessarily correlated and if he so badly thinks he needs intercourse when it’s not a biological need at all then he might have problem and need to work on himself why he thinks it’s essential for his manhood and he’s so obsessed with it. Maybe it’s time to learn pleasure through other ways, blabla.

This of course is pure negotiation and it won’t work in the slightest if he’s not ready to unarm and talk.

Otherwise, shouting at him telling him off he has no right over any women’s body and he better change his behaviour towards women because it’s UNECCEPTABLE, how dare you even put a finger on me when I don’t want to, how would you feel about that, you foul, stinking… Sometimes putting them back firmly into place really works. It did for me. Sometimes.

I wouldn’t encourage him to go rape other women though, because it might just increase his sense of entitlement over women, his belief they’re all shit, and increase the probability of him harming her.

20. FemmeForever - February 16, 2012

There are no magic words to make this situation better. Talking will. not. help. You cannot “work it out”.

There are exactly two options here:

1) accept the abuse

2) make a plan and get away from him in any way you can

Note that he is not your way out of this. You are your way out.

21. witchwind - February 16, 2012

yeah you’re right actually.

FCM - February 18, 2012

Fyi, my friend has asked me to let you all know that this post and the comments have been very helpful to her. 🙂 thanks.

22. Sue D. Nim - February 20, 2012

She should tell him to look into medication to reduce sex drive. Seriously.

FCM - February 20, 2012

yes, thats a good suggestion! in reality, there is absolutely no reason at all for a man like him to continue to have a sex drive. absolutely none. there definitely should be a drug to treat that condition too, bc its completely vestigal, and causes terrible stress and strain on the relationship. if women had a problem like that, you bet your ass they would be trying to find a cure for it. coupled with his enormous sense of entitlement to female bodies, his “sex drive” is about that close to making him a fucking rapist too. or, at least such a pathetic turd that he is trying to coerce a 60 year old unwilling woman into sex. you would think that for the sake of their egos ALONE, they would WANT to find a cure for this humiliating condition, but no. they go and make fucking VIAGRA instead. losers.

FCM - February 20, 2012

did i say losers? i meant RAPISTS. thats all they are, isnt it?

23. Coo - February 22, 2012

“if only men got what they deserved. if only.”

If only my ex-husband got what he deserved. He’d be dead. We women are indoctrinated from birth to appease and deny ourselves in service to men. It’s all around …placate the men…or else. We awaken to this brainwashing after much damage has been done to us.
When I was in my twenties I requested a tubal ligation from my gyn. I didn’t want to be vulnerable to a never-wanted pregnancy; bad enough to be so vulnerable to piv. Oh, the reaction! Nobody would help me. Fast forward- I’m married to a man I thought respected me as a human being(har-dee-har!) and I fall pregnant, while on the pill. He begs me to have the baby because he’ll pull his weight, he’s my partner, don’t you know. Our child is born and he becomes Mr. Patriarchy personified. Why was the baby conceived to begin with? Because I ENDURED a session of piv that I didn’t wish to engage in just because he was sulking. It’s misnomered “mercy sex”. I was exquisitely tired and nervy after presenting graduate oral examinations, but no matter, he wanted to stick his dick into me. And I let him because of gender enculturation. After the birth I suffered a postpartum thyroiditis and was ill for two years. I am still on medication that I have to take daily, years after the fact. This has wreaked havoc on my health and thus on my ability to work. Piv is BAD, BAD, BAD for women. No woman should be pressured into it for any reason, at any age.

FCM - February 22, 2012

yes, its nearly impossible to get a tubal if youve never had kids before, no matter how old you are. bc its infathomable that a woman would NEVER want to have kids ever, and would actively work towards that end. its literally inconceivable. and the docs are afraid that you will become hysterical after its over, and change your mind, and sue him. it never crosses any of their minds that they are acting reprehensibly, and perhaps criminally, when they refuse our requests, considering how dangerous pregnancy really is. and knowing that no contraceptive is 100% effective, and they all have side effects up to and including death. nonone will ever admit any of this, its the dirtiest and worst-kept secret ever, but we all go around acting as if its not real. and those of us who refuse to go along with this mass delusion are the crazy ones! its all so obvious, once you become willing to admit and believe what men are, and that men might not have womens best interests at heart afterall…despite all the propaganda.

im sorry you had such complications, and i have never heard of postpartum thyroiditis. i will look that one up.

24. Coo - February 24, 2012

Thank you, FCM, for your empathetic reply. Thyroid disease affects the whole body; it’s breathtaking to experience how much can go wrong when the thyroid isn’t functioning as it should be. Funny how we aren’t taught about how pregnancy can damage thyroid function.
Hmm.
My daughter is fifteen. I tell her the truth as I see it about this world men have made a mess of. Put yourself first and foremost, I say to her. I tell her that she has as much right as any boy does to develop her potential as a human being. Most, if not all, men and boys are to be avoided, as much as possible, as they are selfish and manipulative wretches who would use up her precious vitality for their own gain. The men and boys who would pressure her for PIV don’t give a damn about her and may actively wish to harm her. I tell her that PIV leads to an entrapped, miserable existence for most women. PIV is BAD, BAD, BAD for women. And, it’s not sex. She seems to be listening. One can only hope…and try to lead by example.

25. FemmeForever - February 24, 2012

My daughter is fifteen. I tell her the truth as I see it about this world men have made a mess of. Put yourself first and foremost, I say to her……She seems to be listening. One can only hope…

Good luck to your family, Coo. This is sooooo hard to get across in an increasingly misogynist world with most girls in her peer group believing the male supremacist hype. Godspeed.

I often wish I had a daughter but the thought that my daughter could end up hating me and loving the dominant culture chills me to the bone and it’s a rejection I don’t think I could survive.

26. Noel - March 1, 2012

Coo –

I know it sounds, and is, awful, but I’ll probably always be grateful that I had a son for this reason, and this reason only…raising a girl-child in this world full of traps, snares and wolves waiting to hurt her is a horror I can’t even begin to imagine living. My body and mind frost over with immobilizing anxiety at the thought.

(Then again, they do the same when considering the distinct possibility that my boy-child could grow up to *be* one of those wolves himself…I really don’t know which is worse sometimes for the female parents involved…)

You have my empathy, my support, and my admiration. Keep talking. Keep fighting. Though she may reject you in youth, she will likely come to deeply respect and seek out your counsel/commiseration later in life (a hope female parents of sons have no realistic expectation of realizing, ever).

Best of luck.


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