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Bad Sense February 24, 2012

Posted by FCM in authors picks, feminisms, logic, news you can use, PIV.
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like the dishwasher dilemma, which is the source of endless and unresolvable conflict in the het partnership, the “sex” fight is one that can happen every day, all day without ever being resolved.  because its a clash of 2 realities, where women are saying that from their perspective, things look, sound, feel, taste and smell like shit, they dont like it, and they want it to change; and men disagree that anything should ever change, when the current arrangement is so obviously beneficial to men and supports male power.  thats what the sex fight is about: women dont like living in mens reality, where men make the rules to benefit themselves, at womens expense.  and men do like it, and they never, ever want it to change, and they will never do anything to change or disturb the current order, and they will do everything in their power to support it and perpetuate it forever.

and the sex-fight comes in 2 flavors, doesnt it?  we are all familiar with the one where women are sick and fucking tired of being pronged by men, where they have had enough of submitting to unwanted intercourse that is boring, painful, degrading, risky, dangerous, or terrifying.  otherwise known as the “frigid woman problem“.  you know, from mens perspective.  where NOT engaging in painful, terrifying or degrading intercourse is known as abstinence, because intercourse, no matter how terrible it is, is what sex is, and going without it is the same thing as abstinence.  according to language.

but theres also the problem of women wanting PIV too much, or more than their partners do.  theres a very clinical and very nasty-sounding name for women who actually desire all that PIV thats being done to them, and would be done to them anyway, whether they liked or wanted it or not: nymphomaniacs.  because men know that theres something very wrong with women who actually want intercourse.  you know, considering how dangerous it is for women, and how much it is clearly against womens best interests.  men know this, and they are naming their reality constantly: women would have to be literally insane to want PIV.  of course, since no women are free to opt-out of PIV completely, this also implies, doesnt it, that engaging in unwanted intercourse (as opposed to intercourse thats wanted) is actually the sane thing to do, and is what passes as sanity for women.  rape and rapeability as sanity, and evidence of good mental health, for women.  omg.  but i digress.

my point is that women wanting more PIV than their partners — and the frigid woman problem — are really manifestations of the same thing.  radical feminists are always bombarded with stomach-turning porntastic proclamations by both women and men, whenever we criticize PIV, where despite what we know about womens shared experience with PIV and how devastating it has proven to be to girls and women around the world, there are apparently some women who like it.  looooove it, even.  and i am sick of hearing about it, but its not because i dont understand it, and its not because it challenges my position and i dont like being challenged.  its because i dont like being bombarded by fucking porn, for one thing.  and its also because it doesnt challenge anything at all, and its actually completely consistent with a radfem analysis of dueling realities, and PIV.  and the stupid — combined with the porn — just really fucking burns, yannow?  it really does.

so lets put this one to bed.  some women want lots and lots of PIV because if they are going to engage in it at all, and take on the extreme risk of engaging in PIV at all, it makes perfect, nauseating sense that they would also want to do it a lot.

because once you have engaged in intercourse one time, there is no way of knowing for sure that you havent become impregnated against your will: you wont know that until you get your next period.  and this is terrifying.  youve jumped off a bridge, and theres no going back.  so doing it 10 more times really doesnt make anything better, but it doesnt really make it worse, either.  not really.  the first time is the worst, because it introduces terror into the equation for the first time.  and going from no-terror to some terror is more of a change, than going from one degree of terror to another.  or at least, going from none to some is objectively measurable, where going from one degree of terror to another is subjective at best, and dependant on many variables, like where you are in your cycle, birth-control failures, and the like.

this is what sexual “empowerment” looks like for women, under the PIV-as-sex paradigm.  taking an area of subjectivity and manipulating it the best they can, so that their interests are at least somewhat represented.  otherwise, they wouldnt be.  at all.

*i* was this woman once, and i was rendered absolutely mute when it came to articulating this, because there are no words for it.  i fought with nigel constantly about our “sex life” which consisted of infrequent PIV, just frequent enough to leave me wondering every (or every-other) month whether i was pregnant, and thats it.  the absolute most risk with the absolute least payout (for me).  it became just another repetitive bicker-fest and was never resolved, partly because in order to articulate this one, so that it can be addressed, you first need to understand the concept of reproductive harm, and that concept does not exist under patriarchy.  it is literally unutterable.  not that most men would be interested in addressing this one properly, even if most women could articulate it.  but that goes without saying, and demonstrates why this is actually a HUGE problem, and probably cannot be remedied.  because men dont want it remedied.  no, they like it the way it is.  now why might that be?

so anyway, assuming you have engaged in PIV that critical first time, you have already jumped off the bridge, and the “sexually empowered” woman wants to enjoy the fall, as much as she can.  note that the entire process *more or less* resets itself after you start your period: you start back at zero, with 100% confidence that you arent pregnant.  but even thats not really true, now is it?  in reality, youre never really sure.  but lets pretend we dont know that.

i believe this can be expressed in a simple graphic.  the first graph represents female confidence, and how that is diminished after the first fuck.  the second graph shows how, for the woman who likes PIV, both terror and pleasure are introduced into the equation at the same time — the time of the first fuck.  a womans net-pleasure can be manipulated in subsequent encounters (but not really in the first):

watch that first step -- its a doozy!

(click on image for full-size)

well, maybe its not *simple* but it is a graphic.  after the first fuck, the terror relating to risk of unwanted pregnancy appears.  and female net-pleasure can be manipulated after that first fuck, by increasing pleasure, or decreasing terror, based on many variables.  what you can never do though, is remove the terror once its there.  that stays, no matter what.  you can play with the levers a bit, thats all.  thats where women find their pleasure from PIV (the ones who get any from it, and many dont).  and that is just so completely fucked up, it makes me furious.

now, if you wanted to be really conspiratorial about it, you might think about whether the black areas, while indicating female terror, might *also* indicate male pleasure.  consider that they might be the same thing.  if they were, it would explain, wouldnt it, why men are so fond of fucking virgins, and having one-night stands.  because in both graphs, the woman’s terror arises after the first fuck, but doesnt really increase that much thereafter, or not in any way thats completely predictable, and in control of the man.  and whats in it for men, if they cant increase female terror/male pleasure any more than it already is, and control women in predictable ways?

anyway, i get that some women loooove PIV, and want a lot of it.  it doesnt make what radical feminists say about PIV wrong, or even challenge it at all.  not by a long shot.


1. silverside - February 24, 2012

Yesterday I had to take a family member for a test at a hospital radiology clinic. Every where it seems, there were warning signs for pregnant women and women who “might” be pregnant. Was so glad none of this applied to me, or was anything I even had to worry about. But I did wonder how many women did feel fear when they saw such signs.

FCM - February 25, 2012

yes. theres no way you can ever know for sure, unless you havent had any PIV at all for several months, or have taken a pregnancy test. and even though doctors ask you “is there any way you could be pregnant?” before administering x-rays for example, they know as well as anyone that you cannot answer that question with certainty, if you are having PIV. they ask it disingenuously, so that they can say they asked you, and cross it off their list, so that they are absolved of responsibility if you were wrong. when i reality, HE was wrong for asking a disingenuous question that is unanswerable. meanwhile, his own wife has likely had several pregnancy scares that she never even told him about, bc why worry him? its all such unfathomable bullshit. reproductive harm to women via the penis, and the risk of unwanted pregnancy is one of the worst kept secrets around, yet we all continue to play the game. its infuriating.

2. cherryblossomlife - February 25, 2012

haha! Yes, if you can’t opt out, you might as well learn to love it.
If you’re THAT oppressed that you can’t make any difference to the world through your work, and you have to have PIV in some form or other to keep a roof over your head (I’m thinking married women with children here, mainly), then you might as well try and extract as much enjoyment as possible out of it. And so loving PIV is the mark of women’s oppression really, isn’t it. That’s before you get to the fact that the eroticization of the power differences between men and women is a crucial mindset for a woman before she can enjoy PIV. I only mention that last part because the PIV=feminist is so aggravating.
But yes, then there’s women who want PIV too much, which strikes me as being a rather passive-aggressive approach on the part of the woman. “Not man enough for me, eh?” I would say nymphomania and frigidity are two halfs of the same coin: women’s resistance to men’s PIV entitlement.
The woman who is most conformist of all is the woman who likes PIV “just the right amount” with her Nigel.

FCM - February 25, 2012

yes i think thats exactly it. women are addressing — and requesting that their nigels address — womens reality and the reality of female-specific harm, whether the women want less PIV or more. its never the right amount for women, because it never takes womens reality into account at all, because its not intended to.

of course, the only way to remove the harm is to remove the PIV entirely, but this is rarely seen as an option by anyone. NONE would be the exact-right amount in a female-centered world. the 2 flavors of the “sex fight” indicate that women arent happy with this reality AT ALL, and that it NEVER works to womens benefit to have PIV at all. really, i think the problem is that women *think* theres got to be an exact-right amount, more than zero, to make it worth it for them, and they are trying to explore that and find the magic number. they dont realize the number is ZERO. but it is. a little bit is too much, and a lot isnt enough. TRY ZERO, if you can. seriously. its so much better! and also the only *feminist* one but leaving that aside, its also SO MUCH BETTER. you know, for women. dont get stuck on the f-word if thats a problem. 🙂

FCM - February 25, 2012

actually, a little bit is both too much and not enough; and a lot is both too much and not enough. both are too much (in the feminist sense, bc any amount is harmful to women) and both are not enough (to make it worth it, because there isnt enough pleasure in either one to outweigh the risk, because PIV can kill you, and what amount of pleasure outweighs that? i dont think it exists).

the *only* option that makes any kind of rational sense at all is to not do it at all. the search for the perfect amount is completely futile. not to mention that it will never, ever be “fair” or consistent with an egalitarian relationship. DUH.

3. thebewilderness - February 25, 2012

For many women, especially those who have children, the purpose of having sex is to affirm that the relationship bond is still intact. We are taught that if the man is no longer as interested in sex with us as previously he is likely having sex with someone else and the family is at risk of fragmenting. These days he is quite likely fapping away to porn. Which also puts the relationship at risk.
So it is risky when you do and risky when you don’t and the whole business is a hot mess of risk for women.

FCM - February 25, 2012

yes thats a good point TBW. the PIV-positive fun fems — you know, the ones that DONT have a bunch of kids already, and who are mostly still in school or doing the roommate thing — never admit to any of the coerciveness of PIV, and the RISK that many, many women face where if they dont do it, their nigels will leave and what that would mean. this is their pattern, where they only ever think of themselves, and women who are similarly-situated to themselves, and never anyone else. and yeah, the risk of nigel leaving taking his ball and going home like a spoiled fucking brat, is part of the cost-benefit analysis for many women. theres alot that goes into our cost-benefit analyses, and we are performing them constantly but this is never recognized bc womens perspective and experience does not matter. at all.

all my PIV posts are about cost-benefit analyses, really, and how PIV is never worth the risk, for women. and how mens active desire to harm women, and the ways men actively and passively benefit from harming women fits into all of this for men, and is part of the cost-benefit analysis for men. we all do these analyses all the time, but its never talked about, and mens reality, and what women stand to lose if they dont cater to it, carries the day always.

FCM - February 25, 2012

im LOL-ing right now bc according to my stats, this article has 79 clicks (and many visits to the home page) but only one person has clicked on the graphic, to view in full-size. you all must have really good eyes. that, or noone cares about the graphic. 😛

4. DavinaSquirrel - February 25, 2012

I did the full size thing, so perhaps that is now two clicks on the graphic?

women wanting PIV too much,… considering how dangerous it is for women, and how much it is clearly against womens best interests. men know this, and they are naming their reality constantly: women would have to be literally insane to want PIV

I had not thought about it from this point of view before. Sure, I knew the ‘damned if you do, damned if you don’t’ mentality of women being in the wrong no matter whether they enjoyed it or hated it, and this certainly adds one more piece to the puzzle that makes sense.

Many decades ago, when I (accidentally) became pregnant with a long term partner, he said something along the lines of “but we never have to worry about that [getting pregnant]”. True, “we” didn’t, but I sure as hell did, each and every time.

5. 1rudegirl - February 25, 2012

hi FCM that was me who clicked on the graphic. It was only the ‘net pleasure- pleasure minus terror’ bit that I couldn’t read. And I have quite poor eyesight.
Btw you would be surprised at the number of women who can safely assert (to medics) that they are not pregnant, because they have not had PIV for a long time. Unless they’re lying, maybe.

6. aliyah16gurl - February 25, 2012

Hi, I love your blog FCM!!! I totally agree with your whole analysis of PIV. I’m a junior in high school and I wish other teenagers girls would be exposed to radfem blogs like yours. This makes me think about the teens getting pregnant and jeopardizing their education and lives just because their privileged boyfriends felt entitled to f*ck them. Its just not worth it and I’m sure a lot of girls newly becoming devirginized have been underwhelmed by the pleasure they expected to feel and overwhelmed by the fear of being pregnant or getting an STD. Makes me sad.

7. Sue D. Nim - February 25, 2012

Crap, I posted a long comment and it was somehow reduced to “a.”

Yes, some women like PIV. Some women fall in love with men. I believe this is a problem and that heterosexual women will never be liberated from men until we free ourselves from our desire for men. I stumbled upon a solution to this predicament accidentally. I recently started taking medication that has the side effect of eliminating my sex drive. It has completely changed me, in a totally positive way. I see the men in my life as they truly are, as I no longer view them through the lens of sexual desire. I am more confident, less self-conscious about my appearance. Every love song and movie seems supremely stupid. I heard some song in the store the other day, went something like this: “Do you love me like I love you? Or is it just pretend?” And I just laugh and think, really? Is this what we women waste our time worrying about? Why not ponder the universe, or get a hobby? I can see hetero romance as a big, stupid fraud. It is a scam. Women are bombarded with the message that we are never complete, never fully human without a romantic partner. That romance is “Love” and that we should either be in a romantic relationship or be looking for one. Biggest crock of shit ever. And I thank my lack of sex drive for allowing me to see through the bullshit.

FCM - February 25, 2012

Sorry you lost your comment sue! But I’m glad you reposted. It happened for me in the reverse: once I started seeing men for what they really are, I mostly stopped being attracted to them, as a class. In general, they are repulsive to me now. But any way you get there is the right way, isn’t it?

For many women, a side effect of hormonal contraceptives is a loss of sexual desire, which is so cruel, because after they are on the pill they aren’t supposed to say no, for any reason. And certainly not bc its not desired, cause sex undesired by the woman is men’s favorite kind! Perhaps the women who take the pill for off label reasons might put off dating though, if they don’t find men desireable? One can only hope…

8. witchwind - February 25, 2012

That’s a really interesting point FCM (about the graph, and frigidity and N. being 2 sides of the same coin).

Both frigidity and nymphomania are emanations of the subject in that they’re more or less conscious ways of resisting and trying to regain control over the colonised body, to be validated by others as a full human being rather than a dead object. nymphomania in particular rejoins what was said in the thread on traumabonding at the hub: for women whose ego has been completely trampled after years of isolation, abuse and degradation by men, it’s a desparate way to seek recognition by those who took her humanity away – since the only time where men pay attention to women is when they want them in bed, they try to have as many men in bed as possible. Men know how desparate for recognition women are and take full advantage of it. they can spot potential “desperate victims” (vulnerable women) miles away.

I think this tendency of wanting as much PIV as possible rather than as little as possible is also direct result of the “orgasm politics” undertook by the sexologists and pornographers since the early 20th century. Cause it could only work for women who are groomed to see PIV as pleasurable and taught to see themselves as men see them due to decades of porn and funfem propaganda. So all they see is what the man’s seeing rather what they feel themselves and what they see: repulsive, rapey men who want them harm. Once you get back inside your body and in your own eyes, everything becomes real, because then you become aware of the fear, the pain, the trauma bonding,

9. witchwind - February 25, 2012

Looks like my disappeared, let me know if I need to repost it. Otherwise nevermind.

FCM - February 25, 2012

is something missing WW? theres nothing in mod right now, everything thats there has been posted, or possibly went into spam. let me know.

10. FemmeForever - February 25, 2012

anyway, i get that some women loooove PIV, and want a lot of it.

Really? Is that true? Or is it just man pleasing and P pleasing. Do you really think women enjoy the act that much? I can’t image why they would.

Some women fall in love with men. I believe this is a problem and that heterosexual women will never be liberated from men until we free ourselves from our desire for men……..Is this what we women waste our time worrying about? Why not ponder the universe, or get a hobby? I can see hetero romance as a big, stupid fraud. It is a scam.

Preach, Sue, preach.

11. FemmeForever - February 25, 2012

make image = imagine

12. FemmeForever - February 25, 2012

Remember that bedroom scene from “What women want” where Marissa Tomei is thinking about how utterly boring it is?

If there is no genuine exchange of real love between the people, and there isn’t between man/woman couples, that eliminates the whole point of the act for me.

FCM - February 26, 2012

I agree ff that the proclamations are highly suspect.

13. mechantechatonne - February 26, 2012

Personally I wasn’t bullshitting when I said I enjoyed or got off doing PIV. I did consistently orgasm as long as I was sufficiently aroused when I started and I was in one of the few positions that stimulated me properly. I wanted PIV because that was “sex” and if there was no sex, you were told constantly you were not having a real relationship and nigel will leave/cheat moreso than because it got me off, because so did oral, manual stimulation, vibrators and masturbation. The only way it was preferable to just getting at it by myself was the contact, the kissing, the cuddling, the feeling of closeness.

My bislutty ex nigel used to push and pull about it in an odd way. Like he would only ask for it when I didn’t want it, like when I was busy, when we’d been fighting, or he’d wake me up when I was sleeping, or that kind of thing, and I would say no. But when it came to a more opportune situation, like say I asked him, he would freeze over instantly. He didn’t want to talk to me or touch me or anything. So we had this weird situation where we were fighting about me wanting too much or not enough sex all the time. The net effect was we never had any. After a few months of that, I felt so insecure about the whole relationship that I couldn’t. We’d be getting physical and I would just get too uncomfortable to go further because I didn’t want the mind games to get worse and I didn’t want to get more attached to him.

I never got emotionally attached to any of the guys that I actually had sex with, though. I had sex because I craved physical intimacy sometimes, but I didn’t actually feel that much for the guys in question otherwise. Like I would have been fine to never hear from them again, if not for the fact that I had to at least keep them around until I was sure I wasn’t pregnant, and if I was going to be having sex with them over some period of time, I had to cultivate enough of a relationship to be able to be with them if I needed to be. Once I realized how much guys really don’t give a shit about women, and that they wouldn’t really be of any use to me if I did get pregnant, I didn’t want to have PIV anymore. Not wanting to date them followed soon after, since I didn’t really want to date them when I was having PIV.

14. witchwind - February 26, 2012

It is a really important point that the point of PIV is for it to happen only when the dude wants it, because its a tool of control. It’s interesting that it puts men off when women initiate it. When I think of it, I didn’t initiate any single PIV act I’ve ever had, it was always when HE wanted. Sometimes I could refuse, sometimes I couldn’t. Most of the times it didn’t even come into question that I could refuse.

15. maggie - February 26, 2012

Chatonne post resonates with me. Excellent. And thank you for articulating what I couldn’t.

16. Alouette - February 26, 2012

women dont like living in mens reality, where men make the rules to benefit themselves, at womens expense. and men do like it, and they never, ever want it to change, and they will never do anything to change or disturb the current order, and they will do everything in their power to support it and perpetuate it forever.

This about summarizes every fight between a man and a woman ever. Their interests are antithetical to ours. In fact, it’s how men define themselves. That’s why men say feminism is anti-man. They’re telling us they are patriarchy, yet we’re never allowed to say it. The level of denial most women live with in order to accept these contradictions in the name of survival is astounding. Frankly, I’m shocked we’re not all dead, but that could change very soon with the way things are going…

17. cherryblossomlife - February 27, 2012

They need us alive, until they take reproductive technology to the point where they don’t. In Japan men already use dolls and shit instead of real women for sex.

FCM - February 27, 2012

Yeah, which makes it completely obvious what “sex” really is to men and to the p, which is “men sticking their dicks into objects.” Inflatable rafts, bicycles, cars, knotholes, whevs. When this is done to women, women are the objects. This cannot be remedied, and the language men use to describe all of these things, (sex) gives the entire game away.

18. JessMess - February 29, 2012

“…if they were, it would explain, wouldn’t it, why men are so fond of fucking virgins, and having one-night stands. because in both graphs, the woman’s terror arises after the first fuck…”
Totally true. Terrifyingly true.
And don’t you love how in any conversation about how men love sex and that’s all they want/think someone has to trot out the “but women love sex, too!” retort? Like it negates all the bad shit? Like men’s entitlement to our bodies doesn’t matter as much because hey, “she wanted it”….gee, sounds like another apology I know of…
Recently in my het relationship the sex argument has split us into two separate households after 8 years. In telling my friends and family about this, they make excuses for men, “well sex is very important to them, it’s biological”. NO IT’S NOT. IT’S CULTURAL. They feel entitled to it through cultural conditioning, not biology. Biology is used as justification for all kinds of oppression against women, children and minorities so I’m not accepting that shit. They won’t die without sex, it’s not necessary for survival.

19. Mia XX - March 11, 2012

Hey FCM, it has fascinated me since first getting to grips with your analysis that very often men in mainstream popular culture acknowledge this same stuff and make the same observations as you (though obviously from very very different perspectives). I have started to actually note when this happens, I just posted about it and I’m sure I will do again.

FCM - March 13, 2012

ok miaxx you are talking about PUAs who are using this stuff against women, so that they can essentially rape women with impunity. yes? your example is that the PUAs use observations of “last-minute resistance” women often show when PIV is about to happen, explain to other men that this is very common and why, (fear, and terror of unwanted pregnancy, and resistance to male-centric reality and sexuality) and how and why its ok to ignore her resistance (or overcome it) and fuck her anyway. in case anyone had any doubt that there is a war raging against women, the PUAs are really good evidence of it. they know about the horrors women face and the problems that arise for women under the PIV-as-sex paradigm, and having to negotiate these pitfalls men place in front of us, and they use all of it to their own advantage. my favorite is how they say that if a woman doesnt give a forceful NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO (or kill him in self-defense) that all her other signals and communications that clearly communicate NO, dont count. even though being forceful and making men mad is likely to get you beaten, raped, or worse, and they fucking well know it. basically, if you have the extremely bad luck to be alone with a PUA ever, you arent getting out of there without being raped. and they dont care who knows it, either.

still not sure why the fun-fems like to pretend theres any hope for men, or for PIV being liberatory for women, when this kind of shit is going down all around them. they still wont admit that they are terrified of being impregnated for exmaple, when even the fucking PUAs know it, and all men know it, and they are all using it against women deliberately all the time.

20. Mia XX - March 13, 2012

yeah. I found the PUA website very very creepy and disturbing. I don’t want to be alone with one of them, ever, but part of the problem is you don’t know who they are. And also, I feel like in many ways they are just formalising what a lot of guys do/say/think anyway.

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