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The Cotton Ceiling? Really? March 13, 2012

Posted by FCM in feminisms, logic, trans, WTF?.
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this is a real-life exchange that took place between a lesbian activist, and a trans activist. the lesbian asked the trans “What’s the cotton ceiling?” and the following exchange ensued (if this is confusing in any way, its either my fault in formatting it, or its the fault of the trans for making such little sense in the first place.  the lesbian was totally clear at all times):

—–Original Message—–

From: [redacted lesbian]
Sent: March-10-12 12:04 PM
To: [redacted trans]
Subject: What’s the cotton ceiling?
Thanks.

On Mon, Mar 12, 2012 at 1:27 PM, [redacted trans] wrote:
Hi there,

The cotton ceiling is a theory proposed by trans porn star and activist Drew DeVeaux to explain the experiences queer trans women have with simultaneous social inclusion and sexual exclusion within the broader queer women’s communities. Basically, it means that cis queer women will be friends with us and talk day and night about trans rights and ending transmisogyny, but will still not consider us viable sexual partners.

The term cotton ceiling is a reference to the “glass ceiling” that second wave feminist identified in the workforce, wherein women could only advance so high in the workforce but could not break through into positions of power and authority. The cotton represents underwear, signifying sex.

The theory of the cotton ceiling is useful in identifying the dynamic trans women are experiencing, and is meant to open up conversation around desirability’s intersections with transmisogyny and transphobia.

I hope this description is helpful! Let me know if you have any other questions.

From: [redacted lesbian]
Sent: March-12-12 1:34 PM
To: [redacted trans]
Subject: Re: What’s the cotton ceiling?
Thanks. Do you really think lesbians are transphobic for not wanting to have sex with a trans woman who is male-bodied?

On Mon, Mar 12, 2012 at 1:57 PM, [redacted trans] wrote:
Trans women are not male-bodied. There is nothing male about our bodies.

I think that everyone has the right to decide who they want to have sex with, how they want to have that sex, and when they want to have that sex, or to not have sex at all. Consent is incredibly important, and no one should ever feel pressured to have sex of any kind with anybody.

However, I also think that people’s desires are often influenced by (and even dictated by) an intersectionality of cultural messages which include transphobia, transmisogyny, racism, classism, sexism, homophobia, ableism, and xenophobia, among many other factors. This is a topic that many within the feminist movements and womanist movements have discussed in terms of racism, shade-ism, classim, and ableism, and is also being discussed now in reference to transphobia and transmisogyny. I believe that many cis queer women do not see queer trans women as viable sexual partners in large part due to the cultural messages that exist, both within queer culture and mainstream/straight culture, that tell us that trans women’s bodies are inherently undesirable except as a fetish for cis straight men. I also think that it is rooted in the belief that trans women are not women, which is transphobic and transmisogynist.

Trans women across the Anglophone world have identified these issues in our lives and are now engaging more and more in organizing around this. The workshop at the Pleasure and Possibilities Conference is a safer space for trans women to get together, name our experiences of oppression and exclusion, and discuss ways of changing culture to break down these barriers – as fits with the theme of the conference which is centred around overcoming the sexual barriers various groups of marginalized women experience.

From: [redacted lesbian]
Sent: March-12-12 1:59 PM
To: [redacted trans]
Subject: Re: What’s the cotton ceiling?
Thanks. So, just to make sure I understand this, a trans woman with a penis, and who has no desire to have a sex change, is not male bodied – correct?

On Mon, Mar 12, 2012 at 2:02 PM, [redacted trans] wrote:
There is nothing inherently male about a woman’s body, unless she identified things about it as male herself. So, no, I do not consider trans women with penises to be male-bodied, unless that is how they identify.

From: [redacted lesbian]
Sent: March-12-12 2:04 PM
To: [redacted trans]
Subject: Re: What’s the cotton ceiling?
This is seriously problematic for lesbians. What you are saying is lesbians – who desire sex with females – are somehow bigoted for that desire, no? That’s exactly what nontrans males say to us.
Anyway, take care, [redacted lesbian]

On Mon, Mar 12, 2012 at 2:18 PM, [redacted trans] wrote:
That’s a really nonsensical way of interpreting that. Please don’t put words in my mouth.

I have not actually been speaking about lesbian-identified women specifically, though they are some of the women who are within the category of queer women.

Trans women are female. When our female-ness and womanhood is denied, as you keep doing repeatedly, that is transphobic and transmisogynist. As I said earlier, all people’s desires are influenced by an intersection of cultural messages that determine those desires. Cultural messages that code trans women’s bodies as male are transphobic, and those messages influence people’s desires. So cis queer women who are attracted to other queer women may not view trans women as viable sexual partners because they have internalized the message that trans women are somehow male.

The comparison to what cis males say also makes no sense. What trans women are saying is that we are women, and thus should be considered women sexually, and thus be considered viable partners for women who are attracted to women. What cis males are saying is that queer women shouldn’t be exclusively attracted to women, which is completely different.

From: [redacted lesbian]
Sent: March-12-12 2:21 PM
To: [redacted trans]
Subject: Re: What’s the cotton ceiling?
I don’t want to put words in your mouth. I want to understand what you are saying. Trans women may be women, but they are not female. A penis is not a female organ.

“What trans women are saying is that we are women, and thus should be considered women sexually, and thus be considered viable partners for women who are attracted to women. What cis males are saying is that queer women shouldn’t be exclusively attracted to women, which is completely different. ”

It’s not completely different to lesbians, and it’s not completely different at all. Lesbians are sexually attracted to females. This does not include trans women with penises.

What you say makes sense *only* if you believe the fiction that people with penises are *female.* Correct?

On Mon, Mar 12, 2012 at 2:23 PM, [redacted trans] wrote:
Trans women’s bodies are female bodies, whether or not we have penises.

And I’m done engaging in this conversation. You are clearly attempting to bait me in order to find some way of slandering me and my work online, and, frankly, I have better things to do with my time.

On Mon, Mar 12, 2012 at 2:27 PM, [redacted lesbian] wrote:
I am not trying to bait you. I was trying to get you to make this statement: Trans women’s bodies are female bodies, whether or not we have penises.
That’s bullshit. And that bullshit means lesbians are expected to be sexually accessible to trans women with penises or face being labeled a bigot.
Best, [redacted lesbian]

/end of email exchange

where to start?  im *tempted* to start with the problem of appropriation of second-wave feminist concepts, in attempting to further the anti-feminist trans (mens rights) agenda…and the additional problem of doing that REALLY BADLY (omg) but instead, i think i will go right into what appears to be the following implied statement, being made by redacted trans: lesbian women must sometimes negotiate birth control when having sex with other women, if they do not wish to become pregnant.

but of course, *no* transwomen, or lesbian transwomen, will ever have to do anything to avoid becoming pregnant.

why not?  lets explore:

(click on image to view in full size)

please note that yellow, orange and blue are the only ones that can *get* anyone else pregnant, in case that wasnt clear.  hmmm, why might that be?  why does yellow have something in common with blue, while at the exact same time having nothing in common with white, even when living in trans-world where there is any such fucking thing as orange?  why oh why are lesbian transwomen different than lesbians?  why god why?

and the spot where orange and pink touch (BUT DONT OVERLAP) is i *think* what redacted trans was talking about in his email, but im not sure.  you know, the part where lesbians are supposed to be penetrated by lesbian transwomens dicks:(

i would also like to know: in this trans universe, where lesbian women must sometimes negotiate birth control when having sex with other women if they do not wish to become pregnant, do political lesbians not exist, where a political lesbian is a woman who decides to be a lesbian for political reasons, including not being subjected to unwanted pregnancy and reproductive harm via the penis?

these are all serious questions, and i dont think they are answerable, while still holding fast to the trans-ideology that is displayed in the above email exchange, where trans lesbians are supposed to be the same as lesbian women, and a lesbian woman could be in a same-sex relationship with someone who identified as a trans lesbian.  (ie.   both are female, and not male).  so instead of answering, this would probably be the part where the transactivist tells me to shut up.  or, is this where he threatens to kill me?  im kinda rusty, as i havent done this in awhile.  im sure i will find out soon enough.

Comments

1. Boadie MacLeod - March 13, 2012

Thank you so much for writing about this! I always appreciate your analysis. Yes, only men who have become incredibly WAY too male privileged would ever feel that they’re being “discriminated against” because certain women don’t want to fuck them.

But then again, some men have always been ridiculous that way:

2. Snarkurchin - March 13, 2012

No woman would feel so entitled to sex with someone who doesn’t want her. It takes a dick to be this big a dick.

3. bugbrennan - March 13, 2012

Reblogged this on You think I just don't understand, but I don't believe you. and commented:
Things that make you go … WTF

4. DavinaSquirrel - March 13, 2012

So, no, I do not consider trans women with penises to be male-bodied, unless that is how they identify.

The *logic fail* and fantasyland would be funny, if they were not being so very serious about this shit.

Or maybe, considering they don’t quite understand that females do not have male organs, I might, in future, refer to penises as a ‘character flaw’. And character flaws can be fixed. Only an asshole wouldn’t fix a character flaw.

5. nuclearnight - March 13, 2012

Same compulsory heterosexuality, different day.

I’m also sick of hearing fat women’s sexual desirability compared to trans sexual desirability. I really don’t expect people who aren’t attracted to me to be bullied into it in order to be PC. There’s something to be said for genuine attraction and pity fucks aren’t really my thing. Or something most women want either.

6. Drew Deveaux « Pretendbians: Exactly Like Lesbians, Except Not - March 13, 2012

[...] Cotton Ceiling… Share this:TwitterFacebookLike this:LikeBe the first to like this post. [...]

7. Morgan M. Page « Pretendbians: Exactly Like Lesbians, Except Not - March 13, 2012

[...] Cotton Ceiling … Share this:TwitterFacebookLike this:LikeOne blogger likes this post. Tags: pretendbian [...]

8. Alouette - March 13, 2012

Horrifying. I thought their argument was they possess “girl brains.” Is this seriously a common opinion among trans? How can a penis be female? That makes no sense. Well, they can call themselves female until they’re blue in the face and I will still not be attracted to them. As you’ve demonstrated so astutely in your earlier posts, even so-called SRS leaves them with nothing but a superficial approximation of female genitalia. Personally, I don’t find that appealing in the least, quite disturbing actually, and would wager most lesbians feel the same. I would rather be a complete celibate than be sexually involved with a MTF (or FTM for that matter), especially a pre op.

In any case, thank you for the lovely diagram that proves they certainly are not female where it counts for women i.e. reality. Honestly, the underwear analogy by itself made it too obvious these are really males in drag set on PIVing lesbian bodies. I wonder how many “transitioned” for that very reason. Highly unsettling update, but a needed one.

FCM - March 13, 2012

Or maybe, considering they don’t quite understand that females do not have male organs, I might, in future, refer to penises as a ‘character flaw’. And character flaws can be fixed. Only an asshole wouldn’t fix a character flaw.

LOL well, to a trans, a penis might be JUST a character flaw, but women know better. its that, and much, much more.

there was so much i couldve said about this, and maybe i shouldve (and maybe i still will) but the NON-INTERSECTING CIRCLES were just too much for me and my primitive paint program to ignore. i mean really. they dont intersect, that means they share nothing in common. that means they are DIFFERENT. different!

heres a link to another graphic on the universality of the male experience: NONE of them are impregnable. while ONLY (not all) females are. ONLY is not the same thing as ALL. DUH

http://scumorama.wordpress.com/2012/01/20/universal-experience/

9. GallusMag - March 13, 2012

Dicks are gross. And so are men.

10. GallusMag - March 13, 2012

I like men, don’t get me wrong. But… yuck.

11. just some person - March 13, 2012

I thought ‘cotton ceiling’ was going to be a reference to tampons/pads.

But that’s a whole ‘nother level of ‘trans-phobia’, eh?

FCM - March 13, 2012

and yes, the underwear analogy. that could be its own post. this line alone has about a hundred things wrong with it:

The term cotton ceiling is a reference to the “glass ceiling” that second wave feminist identified in the workforce, wherein women could only advance so high in the workforce but could not break through into positions of power and authority. The cotton represents underwear, signifying sex.

first of all, “underwear” does NOT signify SEX mkay? underwear is something that keeps the inside of your pants clean, in case you want to wear them another day before washing them, and it keeps the pants from giving you wedgies and pinching you. neither one of those is a SEXUAL function, or SEXY in any way. in fact, its kinda gross, albeit necessary. in what universe do “underwear” signify sex? victorias secret fashion show? jeebus.

and what kind of skeevy perv would think that “cotton represents underwear, signifying sex.” cotton panties like grandmas and menstruating women wear? like the BIG kind? or the cute tiny ones that girl-children wear under their dresses that you always see bc the girls are acting like KIDS and should never be put into dresses in the first fucking place bc they cant keep their panties hidden while wearing dresses? or again, like the line of cute tiny cotton panties at victorias secret? are we THERE again? FUCKING PERVS.

and thats JUST the panties themselves. making the leap from “glass ceilling” to “cotton ceiling” and using the imagery of “breaking through into positions of power and authority” for BOTH? really? because, for female-bodied people our SEX and being fucked is how we break into positions of power and authority? is it? or, is our SEX and being fucked the path to our destruction and demise GLOBALLY, and there is overwhelming proof that this is true?

and (AND!) WHEREAS for MEN and male-bodied people, the opposite seems to be true?

and we are supposed to be accepting people who think and talk this way as female?

FAIL, FAIL, FAIL, FAIL.

12. Cynthia - March 13, 2012

Over the course of reading this entry I could not help but face palm sometime around a million times over how utterly ridiculous the comments from “redacted trans” were. I could rip apart each individually but for the sake of not making this comment an entire blog entry I will keep it to a few of the most out-standing bits of idiocy.

“The theory of the cotton ceiling is useful in identifying the dynamic trans women are experiencing, and is meant to open up conversation around desirability’s intersections with transmisogyny and transphobia.”

Firstly, what in the world is transmisogyny aside from an appropriation of misogyny? Seeing that it is always used alongside transphobia, my best guess is that it is really just another word for “transphobia” which they use for some reason. So I’ll avoid focusing much on that and just say that they should stick to one word and stop dropping extra buzzwords, which brings me to another point.

All I see redacted trans doing here is dropping these buzzwords without giving any clear reason as to what is specifically meant by them.

“There is nothing inherently male about a woman’s body, unless she identified things about it as male herself. So, no, I do not consider trans women with penises to be male-bodied, unless that is how they identify.”

At this point I think I left a mark on my head, as the level of denial and idiocy reached a breaking point that I did not think possible. A penis IS a male organ else why else would trans women want a surgery to cut it into something resembling female genitalia, aka a vulva?

But that is pretty much it. The sheer amount of clear and utterly ridiculous denial in what redacted trans said is what makes this so hard to read and makes redacted trans absolutely impossible to reason with.

Somehow they have gone beyond the realm of reason and sanity to where they are unable to see that lesbians not wanting to have sex with them is likely the lesbian woman’s choice alone based on biological realities and her preference of objectively female organs rather than any sort of nonsensical rumour spreading done by any sort of media of culture or anything done to hurt anyone. This trans be self-centred much?

13. FCM - March 13, 2012

FCM - March 13, 2012

this vid has nothing to do with anything really, but was sent to me today. there are many things wrong with it, as there always are. as i continue on *my* journey, and find that i literally do not have time to do all the things i would like to do in life, it always strikes me that trans activists and “gender fuckers” seem to have almost unlimited time to navel-gaze and ruminate about JENDAH and come up with idiotic theories that take 12 Ph.Ds in patriarchal doublethink to understand. why dont they just make shelters for trans? why waste all this time trying to interact with women and feminists, as well? tellingly, MRAs do the same fucking thing. gee, i wonder why?

FCM - March 13, 2012

i mean that ONE VIDEO ALONE is 45 fucking minutes long. it mustve taken days to shoot and edit, if not weeks or months. WTF? i couldnt even watch the whole thing (almost made it though, stopped around 41:00) bc of his fake high-pitched approximating-a-womans-voice that mustve been very difficult to sustain for this long over this much foootage, and in fact does seem to change throughout. time, energy, resources…and for what exactly? this is a serious question.

also lotsa footage of him SHOPPING. cause thats what makes a woman.

14. Cheryl - March 13, 2012

OT–I couldn’t watch all of the video either, but I dragged it over to the halfway mark and ended up at bathroom wars. Two things:

–a snippet of some sort of movie/doc where a woman is shown telling a transwoman to use his own washroom. The taller, larger transwoman turns around and says “Make me.” Chills, anyone?

–the comparison of sex-segregated bathrooms to racially-segregated bathrooms and drinking fountains. Is this an accepted thing now; have I not been paying attention?

FCM - March 13, 2012

HAHA! the bathroom clip made me laff. SAY YOURE SORRY. no! SAY IT! (strangle, strangle) okay im sorry! SAY IT LOUDER, JUMP THROUGH THREE HOOPS AND STAND ON YOUR HEAD. uh, ok? if it means you will stop choking me i guess i will? AND CALL ME MAAM.

and yeah, the “make me” coupled with the much larger stature and male entitlement and known propensity for actual violence, was some really nice intimidation.

FCM - March 13, 2012

and YES, its all comparable to racism now. as is anti-male bigotry: also comparable to racism. even though almost all trans and MRAs are white men. yep, thats it. you arent supposed to notice the similarities bw trans and MRA politicking though!

15. Sargasso Sea - March 13, 2012

You know, if when I was pregnant and dared claimed to be a male-bodied person because I said so I would have been taken away for a psychological evaluation and possibly had my daughter taken from me upon her birth.

I almost can’t believe the depth of my resentment for Redacted Trans, the totally unrealted Joelle Ruby Ryan, Monica Roberts and all other male-bodied dicks who feel slighted because they can’t have every last fucking thing in the toy store.

Oh yes, dicks are gross but not as gross as when they’re attached to things that call themselves human beings.

Get off my planet.

16. Boadie MacLeod - March 13, 2012

Trans and MRA’s are exactly the same. They literally show up TOGETHER to troll my public page on FB and call me a “transphobe.” One MRA who named himself after Marquis de Sade made his own page dedicated to calling me and my page misandrist and transphobic. (But he only has like 12 “likes” so screw him.) MRA’s absolutely love to yell “transphobe!!!” at radical feminists. It makes their day.

I recently had a “transgendered woman” and some of “her” friends making rape threats toward me and the other women on my page. The fun fems and trans activists just let them get away with that type of behavior and don’t say a damn thing about it. In fact, they continue to defend them!

And this same guy (“trans woman”) who was making rape threats was legally allowed by the state of Colorado to change his status to “female.” His driver’s license now says “female.” He was bragging about being able to go into the women’s bathroom and saying “suck my unwanted dick.” I took screen shots of everything and am going to put it up on my blog.

17. smash - March 13, 2012

Cynthia says, “At this point I think I left a mark on my head, as the level of denial and idiocy reached a breaking point that I did not think possible. A penis IS a male organ else why else would trans women want a surgery to cut it into something resembling female genitalia, aka a vulva?”

Great point, and well said!

FCM, thanks for this post.

18. llaff - March 13, 2012

pricks really will stop at nothing to prick.

FCM - March 13, 2012

yes, the denial and idiocy has reached the level of the unimaginable, where you literally cannot predict where they will go or what they will do next bc none of it is based on reality, logic, or makes any kind or rational sense. its quite literally chaotic flailing. and while you are trying to regain your equilibrium they move the goalposts and spin you around a few times while they spin too, the idea being that they are always one step ahead of everyone else and by the time youve figured out what they are saying and have explained it to everyone else, theyve gone onto the next thing and are making fun of you for being like so 5-minutes ago. that they are headed in the general direction of erasing category:woman and erasing/obscuring the female-specific harms of the penis and supporting male power and the P seems like the only consistent, which for radical feminists is enough to reject them in toto, forever.

if they are going to “present arguments” and “theory” which by definition are required to make some kind of rational sense to other people, and be objectively verifiable with reproducible results, their arguments and theories had better make some damn sense. if they dont, its going to be pointed out. i dont mind spending SOME of my time this way, afterall i have THIRTEEN Ph.Ds in patriarchal doublethink (neener neener) and a primitive paint program at my disposal. but sheesh, it really does burn sometimes. why dont they just admit they are just self-serving assholes who are inconsistent and “the heart wants what the heart wants” or whatever, and just stop trying to be something they arent? (LOL oh yeah….pretending to be something they arent IS what they do, all the time, about everything….)

19. llaff - March 13, 2012

yeah. they’ll never admit that. to admit that would be to annihilate themselves. fortunately their game has been pinpointed. they stir up chaos and feed off the resultant energy. i just picked up mary daly’s pure lust and she talks about their “constant state of near-emergency” (not exact quote but close). just keeping that in mind is more than half the battle. if not all.

20. bugbrennan - March 13, 2012

REDACTED LESBIAN! xoxoxoxox

FCM - March 13, 2012

yes, redacted lesbian was awesome wasnt she? very clear, and polite too, even til the end. redacted trans, on the other hand, CHANGED PERSONALITIES DRASTICALLY when he became unhappy. remind you of anything laydeez?

FCM - March 13, 2012

or should i say any ONE?

21. Witch - March 13, 2012

So much post-modernism, so little time.
Of course you can’t argue with them if they don’t believe the basics of logic, truth and biology. Lesbians do not want teh penis, as they’re attracted to females, but OMG WHAT IF THAT PENIS IS FEMALE?

Seriouslyrrrrrrrrrghhh I can’t anymore, they’re delusional and crazy. This “there is nothing male about my body because I said there wasn’t” is such nonsense.

I literally can’t deal with it anymore. Holy shit. I wonder how they differentiate between female and male bodies if apparently sex doesn’t exist. “bodies with penises and bodies with vaginas”? So if we say they haven’t got a vagina and we got, they’ll start saying a vagina isn’t really a vagina and it can be a penis if you look from a certain angle with the right light? I can imagine!

Lesbian: “I don’t want to have sex with you. You got a penis. I dislike penises and I’m attracted to people with vaginas.”
Trans: “You see, this isn’t a penis. This is an outward vagina.”
Lesbian: “Well, I dislike ‘outward vaginas’. I like ‘inwards vaginas’.”
Trans: “TRANSPHOBIC!!!”

Or:

Lesbian: “I don’t want to have sex with you. You got a penis. I dislike penises and I’m attracted to people with vaginas.”
Trans: “You see, this isn’t a penis because it doesn’t identify as one. It dislike labels, it is something outside of the box. It isn’t a vagina nor a penis because that would be ~cissexist and transphobic~.”
Lesbian: “Well I dislike anything you got between your legs, it doesn’t look like anything I’d like, which is ‘things that looks like what exists between my legs.'”
Trans: “You’re SO close-minded. How can you live like that? I thought it was XXI century. Seriously, I hope you step on legos, you bigot.”

There’s NO WAY TO WIN. If you don’t follow their (FAILED) logic, you’e a bigot, “cissexist”, “transphobic”, etc.

So the only way not to be called bad names is shutting up and accepting the ~female penis~

Oh goddess, give me patience because if you give me strenght I’ll punch them even harder.

FCM - March 13, 2012

LOL @ “i hope you step on legos.” and srsly, its as if they never got the memo that MEN have been saying this to WOMEN forever: if you dont fuck me, you are a (XYZ). heard it all before doods. if you didnt know that, or if you expected it to work, or figured that particular reasoning was sound, theres probably a reason for that.

22. Jess - March 13, 2012

1. “Cotton ceiling” is an extremely rapey term, implying that my underwear is something that trans-lesbians want to “break through” in order to assert their freedom?!!!

2. “I do not consider trans women with penises to be male-bodied, ” AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH. Also AHAH to “transwomen are female.” These statements completely erase the difference between GENDER and SEX. SEX is a real thing based in biology, if it wasn’t, there couldn’t possibly be such a thing as transgender, for there wouldn’t be any body for one’s gender to conflict with!!!! When trans-activists try to not only claim they are feminine gendered, but now also FEMALE-SEXED, they out themselves as completely illogical beings campaigning to erase the biological realities of female women.

It is not “transmysogynistic” to recognize that a transwoman is not the same as a female woman. It is actually just plain-old misogynistic to say that a man acting feminine is a REAL female, and that feminine behavior is the definition of female. To put the desires and whims of men above the biological risks and realities of women, and use this to label all people, is extremely misogynistic and dangerous to real women. If we lose our ability to name ourselves and our bodies, we cannot be give correct medical care, protection from pregnancy, or orgasmic education.

FCM - March 13, 2012

and its so obvious that they are saying that NO WOMAN ON THE FACE OF THE EARTH ANYWHERE EVER, is allowed to escape being a semen receptacle, or allowed to opt-out of or reject or escape from the female-specific harms of the penis. NONE OF US. not even lesbians. they have found a way to make LESBIAN SEXUALITY inexorably linked to female oppression, and supportive of male power via trauma bonding, medical events, pregnancy and reproduction. and the fucking fun fems are letting them get away with this.

bugbrennan - March 13, 2012

Yes, changing of tone occurs quite frequently, I’ve observed, when a laydee tells a MAN “no.”

FCM - March 13, 2012

yes, ive “noticed” the same thing. this has RAPE written all over it, all of it. and jess pointed out the part about breaking through womens underpants, being the source of trans lesbians power. hello!

23. thebewilderness - March 13, 2012

I was particularly charmed by the idea that lesbians are a sub category of queer and therefore should let me fuck them or they are bigots. Now that gay lesbian bi and queer are all firmly ensconced under the trans umbrella everyone I want to fuck should welcome me to fuck them or they are transphobic bigots.
Yep, Trans is a subcategory of MRAs. Which is a sub category of narcissistic personality disorder.
There now! Boxed up with a bow.

24. llaff - March 13, 2012

i feel like all one would need to do to counteract the funfem support of transwomen is ask them if they’d like to fuck a transwomen. hypocritical eye-darting may just ensue.

FCM - March 13, 2012

they already tried this shit on feministing, and the comments were hesitant, at best. some said that they were “uncomfortable” about essentially being told what to consent to, while others thanked the poster for offering food for thought. LOL. but noone came right out and called super-duper grade A misogynistic rapetastic male entitled bullshit. the poster was one MTF (non-op i believe) calling himself “vexing.” miska has a link over at her place.

25. DawdleMouse - March 13, 2012

Just one more way for males to guilt women into having sex with them when they don’t want to. What disturbs me most is that I’m sure there are some women who will give in to that guilt. The first word in manipulate is “man.”

FCM - March 13, 2012

yeah. they say whatever they have to say, to get whomever they want to fuck to acquiesce to the fucking. why is it all about the fuck with these fuckers? oh yeah. its the source of MALE POWER AND FEMALE OPPRESSION. duh.

26. themaskedlily - March 13, 2012

first of all ugh. reading this exchange made me feel so nauseatingly violated in every way .. and angry.. and ugghgggggh ;-;. I was violated by a “queer” dude at an lgbt dance before. doods and their entitlement complexes. can I throw up please pleaseee.

Also.. Yes I’m The Masked Lily/Lily, that one, and a couple of months ago deleted my blog.. I was getting some really nasty comments and caved in out of fear of crazies like “redacted trans”. But I’m starting my blog over.. So hello to anyone who might maybe remember me haha.

I love you radfem blogosphere..

FCM - March 13, 2012

hi lily! welcome back. and yes, redacted lesbian has a very high tolerance for nauseating online discussions with trans. i dont know how she does it!

27. thebewilderness - March 13, 2012

The cotton ceiling. A barrier to penetration of the vagina.
I don’t see that as a bad thing, yanno?
The more I think about it the greater the creep factor grows.

28. Cynthia - March 13, 2012

Maybe if we wear steel down there to make a “steel ceiling” they’ll finally go away? Oh no, they’re men so they’ll make a new word and get dynamite out to blast through.

29. Princess Rot - March 14, 2012

This “cotton ceiling” whine sounds just like the whine coming out of the mouths of “nice guy” hetero males who complain about being “friend zoned”, because of course what is a friendship with a female worth if she doesn’t put out? We engage these people with the best intentions but they throw it in our faces with an extra helping of snide condescension and entitlement.

Seriously, any trans who believe the cotton ceiling are exactly the same same as het males who believe in friend zoning… both groups can shove that entitled bullshit up their collective ass. No male gets to treat my friendship/goodwill like it’s fucking worthless unless he’s getting laid. How devaluing… women’s effort is invalid unless we’re giving our physical selves as well as our emotional selves? Now where have we heard that before?

FCM - March 14, 2012

Ah yes the friend zone. Good call, and you’re right, it’s totally the same thing, just slightly repackaged. Gross!

30. April - March 14, 2012

[been lurking a while but this is my first comment]

“Trans women across the Anglophone world have identified these issues in our lives… The workshop at the Pleasure and Possibilities Conference is a safer space for trans women to get together, name our experiences of oppression and exclusion, and discuss ways of changing culture to break down these barriers…”

When someone not wanting sex with you is an “issue” that is “oppressing and excluding” you, that sure sounds like you think you are entitled to sex. Which is of course exactly what men think…

Also, the “barriers” they want to “break down” are women’s “no” to sex. They want to “discuss ways of changing culture to break down these barriers.” [shudder] Very creepy.

And I totally agree that “cotton ceiling” is rape-y.

31. cherryblossomlife - March 14, 2012

Can you *imagine* a woman telling the world that someone wasn’t that into her, or that an entire group of people weren’t willing to fuck her…and then rather than feeling horrendously embarrassed about the fact she wasn’t adequate enough to meet their fuckability standards, she instead creates an entire conference about how it’s THEIR fault she’s not fuckable in their eyes…

No. A woman in that situation would just quietly and shamefully go on a diet.

32. ibleedpurple - March 14, 2012

I have been checking the comments section periodically now because I could not agree more with all that has been said so far. You all see through their bullshit. I already feel sorry for the women who will give them pity fucks – not feeling sorry for them because it’s already quite forseeable that genuine affection cannot be socially engineered in the way they hope to do it.

It also pains me too see that coercion is allowed to happen under the guise of progressive and anti-sexist action. Having already been subjected to vexing’s bullshit, then to Xander Sarkisova’s it’s pretty clear that we see a trend here that should not be ignored.

I also feel incredibly creeped out by the fact that they are targetting the queer community specifically. It’s not purely about lesbians (explicitly said in the mail!) – they are targetting the weakest link: women who genuinely believe biology is a social construct because the difference between the sexes is supposed to be discursively constructed. Women who probably work very hard to make themselves more open to everyone.

As has been noted they actually do not understand what the oppression of women by men is. It is about power, about being denied resources and about being made dependent. The glass ceiling is created by power groups of men building social capital on their shared sexual characteristics to make sure the wealth stays where it is. That trans continually claim to have the same interests as women is absurd if they do not even comprehend what oppression is and actually confuse it with not getting what they want. In fact, if they can afford to link denied sexual access to oppression they cannot be that oppressed.

33. ibleedpurple - March 14, 2012

From the links at Pretendbians I found these gems:

“And given the number of times that I have lost a cis woman’s interest—which at times has been accompanied by outright disrespect—precisely at the moment that my status as a trans woman has been revealed betrays the fact that crude social anxieties often play a role (think ‘how will my friends react,’ or the particularly silly ‘am I still lesbian if I sleep with her?’).”

We are totally like women. We only come with dicks and surgically created openings modelled on what we think a woman should look like.

“However, there are other dynamics at play as well. For example, another project organizer, Morgan Page, has previously written about trans acceptance in ‘queer and trans’ spaces, and how this often essentially means acceptance for trans men exclusively. Personally, I like to think that the situation in this regard might be improving here in Toronto, and that trans men and trans women are at least more likely to work together these days. But while leaning against the wall at a party or a club, watching while masculine spectrum individuals get most of the attention, it’s not difficult to see Morgan’s point.

FtTs are more accepted because more people (read: women) want to get with them because they are female. Not being able to accept basic sexual differences does cloud your perception enough to not see this, apparently. That they have somehow convinced themselves that social acceptance means sexual access (like the entitled males they really are) FtTs suddenly have more status. Which means: women are privileged over men. That must piss them off to no end.

“Overall, I think the workshop was a huge success; many of us here in Toronto are still reflecting on it, and some have already begun proposing the next events (with most of those proposals coming from cis women!).”

Either those are handmaidens of the patriarchy or women who thinks it’s their political responsibility to help transwomen by having sex with them. I am pretty sure that is one of the solutions that MRAs have in mind when they think of their anti-feminist utopia: Women not allowed to say no so that men are never able to feel the slightest inconvenience.

“With that in mind, I sincerely hope that No More Apologies might provide a breaking point for a larger dialogue about trans woman inclusion, not only in queer women’s social settings but also in queer women’s politics.

Fucking trans is now a political strategy.

Working shop info:

“Overcoming the Cotton Ceiling: Breaking Down Sexual Barriers for Queer Trans Women, with Morgan M Page

Overcoming the Cotton Ceiling will explore the sexual barriers queer trans women face within the broader queer women’s communities through group discussions and the hands-on creation of visual representations of these barriers. Participants will work together to identify barriers, strategize ways to overcome them, and build community. Open to all trans women and MAAB genderqueer folks.”

Community built on coercion is not community at all. Strategies to overcome barriers = strategies to manipulate unwilling women into sex. I can remember back in the day when Polly asked the question: why do they want to have sex with someone who they think is bigotted against them? Can you say rapist mentality? The satisfaction does not lie in the sex, it lies in bending people to your will. Like has already been mentioned here, there will be no excuse for not having sex with MtTs that cannot be constructed as transphobic (with the possible exception of asexuality). That’s because it’s not about transphobia.

FCM - March 14, 2012

Thanks for the quotes ibp. Like redacted trans who told redacted lesbian she was being “nonsensical” to point out what this all means for female bodied lesbians, you cite a mtf who says that lesbian women are “silly” to feel that their identity and behavior as lesbians would be compromised or inconsistent if they had sex with a MAAB. That we are silly and nonsensical is what men always say about women when we are speaking our truths and describing our realities as women bc men do not see women’s reality, or know it, or recognize that we have one AND ARE ENTITLED TO ONE, and so they do not know that its real and that we are describing it accurately, nor do they care. They privilege their own reality, or interpretation of it over women’s because they are men.

They are mansplaining to women how it SHOULD be done (in order to benefit men) and why WOMEN ARE WRONG (and not acting in ways that benefit men the most efficiently or properly) but we aren’t wrong. Fun fems invented the term mansplaining and yet they don’t recognize one when they see it, although I am sure they would recognize racism if it came from a white person, or homophobia if it came from a straight woman or straight man who railed against gay men. But they don’t recognize lesbophobia, it seems, unless its a lesbian rejecting a lesbian transwoman, and then they call it transmisogyny! Or they let the mtf call it that and don’t loudly and immediately protest. That all of this is attempted erasing of actual lesbians and literally attempting to obliterate and actually obliterating (in some ways, like theoretically and linguistically) lesbian sexuality and culture does not matter.

And we are back to ALL women being expected to submit to reproductive harm, via the penis. All women. This should give everyone serious pause. Lesbian women are going to have to negotiate birth control now? Huh? And I’m sure the resulting unwanted pregnancies will be MEDICAL MIRACLES right? And that they will also be QUEER. Queering pregnancy! As if.

FCM - March 14, 2012

I wonder if they will have mystery speak at their panty-busting conference? LOL. Mystery is a pick up artist guru, or he was. Not sure what he’s up to lately? Perhaps he can peel himself away from teaching nerds and mras how to rape women better, and teach the trans how to do the same thing. For a small fee of course.

FCM - March 14, 2012

And did I read that correctly: the panty busting conference is open to transwomen and MAAB gender queers? So MAAB only? Yes?

34. bugbrennan - March 14, 2012
35. smash - March 14, 2012

ibp- great quotes. As you say, “The satisfaction does not lie in the sex, it lies in bending people to your will.”

You are completely right on this point. You get right the heart of why this is disgusting and rapey.

FCM, yes, I think that means it is MAAB only.

36. GallusMag - March 14, 2012

Quotes from “Twiggy Danger”/skankassqueer/femmeprincessbrat, a pretendbian (http://pretendbian.wordpress.com/) and former panelist at Butch Voices. Most noted for spamming the #lesbian tag on tumblr with pictures of his penis captioned “this is what a lesbian looks like”:

“. what’s happening here is trans men are pretending like Genitals Are Destiny in order to gain access to community, invade women’s spaces, and sleep with lesbians. the ways that this hurts CAMAB trans people don’t really matter to them.
We all know that heterosexual men love fetishizing lesbians, and they would sleep with all the lesbians they could if it wasn’t for the fact that they’re men… but trans men have found a way around this, and all they have to deal with is a bit of implicit misgendering, but what do they care? They’re getting laid. and apparently that’s more important to them than creating trans unity in the face of cissexist domination. its not like they’ve got anything to gain from trans unity anyways – they aren’t the ones being denied access to restrooms, women’s colleges, play parties, rape crisis shelters, or music festivals. notorious transphobe/transmisogynist fauxminist Janice Raymond once wrote that “transsexuals” want “to colonize feminist identification, culture, politics and sexuality.” She was a bigoted cissexist asshole, and she was talking about trans women, but in a twisted way, her words ring true. There are trans people that are colonizing feminist identification, culture, politics, and sexuality. She was just wrong about which trans people were doing it.”

bonus:

“i would like to see every cis person bloodied and bruised and the rise of a brutal trans oligarchy right now
fuck all of you cis people. plz die thanks.”

FCM - March 14, 2012

ok i mightve found my next project. trans ideology of the hour: FAAB-only space NO. MAAB-only space, when the issue is “how to break down (FAAB lesbians and FAAB gender queer) sexual barriers (to having sex with transwomen) YES.

FAAB-only space at Michfest (OR ANYWHERE) NO. MAAB-only poonani workshop YES.

FCM - March 14, 2012

of course, they could always respond to this criticism of SEX-segregation (NOT GENDER!!!!!!!! NOTICE THE SEGREGATION BY SEX, by transGENDER and GENDER-queer MAABS ON THIS ONE ISSUE) by opening it up to FAABs, even though FAABs may not want to attend their nasty poonani workshop on how to panty-bust unwilling FAABs.

they would probably do that before they relented on the anti-Michfest campaign or any other MAAB campaign against FAAB-only space, or, being men, they could also just ignore the contradiction and go about their biznez bc it suits them to do so and its deliberate anyway. and leave the FAAB fun fems to make it fit into some kind of theory thats consistent with feminism and previous trans blathering.

37. Jewels - March 14, 2012

“I am not trying to bait you. I was trying to get you to make this statement”

So you initiated this conversation with this trans woman just to coerce her into making a statement you wanted to hear? wow….

FCM - March 14, 2012

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

we are getting lots of comments like this one, and i am spamming them, but this one was kinda priceless. redacted trans was COERCED into making a definitive statement about his ideology. now thats good coersion! how mean and nasty of redacted lesbian to stay FOCUSED and ask POINTED QUESTIONS in order to elicit AN ACTUAL STATEMENT OF POSITION from redacted trans, AN ALLEGEDLY-POLITICAL-ACTIVIST, that WASNT like trying to nail jello to a wall.

eliciting a statement of position from an activist is not against the rulez, sorry.

38. bugbrennan - March 14, 2012

“So you initiated this conversation with this trans woman just to coerce her into making a statement you wanted to hear? wow….”

THIS IS HILARIOUS.

No, redacted lesbian wanted to know what The Cotton Ceiling meant. And when redacted lesbian got through all the bullshit mumbo jumbo, the answer was “trans women should have access to lesbian bodies or be shamed as bigots.”

What redacted lesbian wanted was HONESTY. HONESTY.

Yanno, honesty?

39. GallusMag - March 14, 2012

“FAAB-only space NO. MAAB-only space, when the issue is “how to break down (FAAB lesbians and FAAB gender queer) sexual barriers (to having sex with transwomen) YES.

FAAB-only space at Michfest (OR ANYWHERE) NO. MAAB-only poonani workshop YES.”

Yes! Literally! Well, the exception is F2t-only and M2t-only spaces apparently. More from Twiggy, droppin’ knowledge (bolding mine):

“basically the only time it is relevant to talk about CAFAB/CAMAB is when talking about transmisogyny.

it is never okay to make CAFAB/CAMAB-only spaces (with the obvious exception of trans male-only spaces and trans female-only spaces) and if you look around you see a lot of CAFAB people – trans and cis – claiming FAAB or CAFAB as a proud identity. I’ve never seen a CAMAB person – trans or cis – say that they were proud that they were CAMAB. There are multiple reasons for this: because cis men rarely take part in the kind of gender politics that we’re talking about here, and because CAMAB trans people have nothing to take pride in. there is no queer porn industry that celebrates our existence as CAMAB. we’ve had that sort of thing much longer, but instead of nofauxxx and original plumbing, we’ve got shemale yum and trannyshack.”

40. mechantechatonne - March 14, 2012

Talk about a boys’ club! It is very pick up artist how they’re all getting together chatting out how to trick, harangue, guilt and bully women into bed. I wonder if they realize how little they are benefitting the cause of convincing us that they are the same as we are by acting like dudez all the time, and the sort of dudes that we would be least likely to fuck even if we were all straight; even the fun fems are not into this mess.

It’s not clear why they don’t want to have sex with one another; that would nullify this entire question. Why don’t they just decide the FAAB lesbians can have at it and they will show how much they don’t care about labels and physiology by not picking THEIR partners based on how they’re assigned at birth.

After all, if transwomen are real women the same way FAAB women are, then why is it not just the same for them to be lesbians with each other? And if it is just the same, then what is it they are blathering about? They can go smashing around in each other’s cotton panties and lesbian off and have translesbian manly lady loving parties, then, as being real women the same as FAAB women they are not missing anything about lady loving by just having sex with one another.

What’s the obsession with FAAB women if they actually believe it’s all the same?

FCM - March 14, 2012

we havent discussed this yet, but for the record, i wasnt saying anything about political lesbianism in this post EXCEPT that they cannot exist in crazy-trans world, AND that there are many women who DO self-identify as political lesbians who would disagree that political lesbians do not exist. and the trans activists are attempting to ERASE THEM. and the trans activists are big on ERASURE. or at least they are, when they claim that someone is trying to do it to THEM.

there is an internal debate among feminists and lesbians and lesbian feminists as to whether political lesbianism is an actual real thing, and whether political lesbians are really “lesbians” at all, as opposed to women who reject heterosexuality for reasons other than sexual attraction to women. i did not take a position on that in this post, or in the comments, as yet. that always turns into a shitstorm when it is discussed, like all identity-politicking does. this post makes fun of identity-politicking, OBVIOUSLY, bc its inconsistent at every turn.

just wanted to drop that in there. carry on!

FCM - March 14, 2012

and now that you have said that, chatonne, about “whats the obsession w FAAB if they are the same as MTF?” which is an excellent question, they will move the goalposts, and say that well they arent EXACTLY the same but it doesnt matter.

so if they say that, (and they might not, bc as i said chaos is unpredictable, but IF they do) i would try to elicit a statement of position regarding what exactly the differences are. i would obviously note that the DIFFERENCE is that FAABs are that super-sexxxay kind of VULNERABLE that only FAABs are, the vulnerability thats unmatched and un-reproducible by any MAAB, which is that FAABs are vulnerable to the female specific harms of the penis. and that THAT is super, super sexxxay, and its the root of this thing we all notice about WOMENS VULNERABILITY being fetishized by men. they cannot reproduce or mimic that vulnerability, and that vulnerability is exactly what they want.

FCM - March 14, 2012

what the hell is CAFAB/CAMAB?

FCM - March 14, 2012

oh, AHAHAHA genderbitch to the rescue

http://genderbitch.tumblr.com/post/1348084455/so-whats-the-difference-between-maab-faab-and

Question: so what’s the difference between MAAB/FAAB and CAFAB/CAMAB (coercively assigned female/male at birth)? or are they interchangeable?

Answer: They’re pretty much interchangeable in Western culture since everyone is assigned without consent and often disastrously for anyone who has a problem with it.

oh boo boo, the COERSION, it HURTS MY FEELINGS SO MUCH! why they do they always act like its not GIRLS AND WOMEN who suffer the most from our designation as a member of the rape-class and domestic-servant class and reproductive-slave class from the day (and even before) we are born? like, in a real tangible way that has nothing to do with feelings, and everything to to with actual, demonstrable harm and sex-based discrimination like loss of opportunities and being funnelled into the oppressive female gender-role long before we ever menstruate, and long before our fertility actually becomes a material issue (AND AFTER TOO). its not MEN who suffer from this, from being designated a member of the ruling class and the increased opportunities and being funnelled into the oppressING male gender role because they are likely to be able to harm women with their penises later, and are being groomed for it.

they choose to focus on how they DIDNT CHOOSE IT. well duh. babies cant talk. but if they could, im guessing most of them would choose to be MAAB (and many FAABs would also choose to be MAAB, amiright?) i would choose to be MAAB and then turn them on their heads when i came of age. by the time i had children (if i had any) i would be educated, respected, not traumatized, not submissive, and i would have an entire wardrobe full of comfortable clothing and a savings account, so that i could take care of myself and my children. and, as a SIDE NOTE, my fee-fees would be intact because i wasnt coerced on the day i was born. BONUS! not CENTRAL to my happiness, or the sum of the benefit to me, but a definite BONUS. because +1 is always good.

FCM - March 14, 2012
41. mechantechatonne - March 15, 2012

I’m pretty sure that it should be mentioned that craft glitter blind someone, and even finely milled cosmetic glitter is usually “not recommended” for the eye area.

I would love to see what baby coercion looks like. Do you withhold milk and cuddles? Play Enter the Sandman by Metallica as a lullaby? I’m pretty sure whatever nefarious methods doctors use to coerce babies into jendah, that we have forgotten in the ether can’t possibly be as bad as glitter bombing.

FCM - March 15, 2012

on glitterbombing being dangerous (as well as ineffectual):

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/09/glitter-bombing-elections-2012_n_1266457.html

From time to time during the campaign season, the candidates vying for the GOP nomination have been set upon by marriage equality activists at public appearances and subjected to “glitter-bombing.” This tactic has been highly effective, as each of these candidates have, post-glittering, completely reversed their opposition to same-sex marriage.

Ha! Just kidding! It’s actually just sort of been a mild annoyance. But after Mitt Romney’s post-primary speech in Colorado Tuesday night, stuff finally got real for a glitter-bomber, as Romney’s newly-assigned Secret Service detail immediately apprehended 20-year-old University of Colorado Denver student Peter Smith, and turned him over to police. He now faces a $1,000 fine and up to six months in jail for his troubles. It’s as if local law enforcement authorities are treating the glitter-bombing as something dangerous. Well, guess what? It actually is.

Per Judy Kurtz at The Hill:

But Stephen Glasser, an optometrist in downtown Washington, tells [The Hill] that while they might seem harmless, glitter bombs can cause real damage: “If it gets into the eyes, the best scenario is it can irritate, it can scratch. Worst scenario is it can actually create a cut. As the person blinks, it moves the glitter across the eye and can actually scratch the cornea.” Although not likely, it can even cause a potential loss of sight.

That’s almost what happened to one of Glasser’s patients, who was out at a New Year’s Eve soiree where partygoers were tossing glitter around: “It literally scratched not the cornea, but the white of the eye … [S]ince [glitter isn't] exactly what you’d call sterile, there’s not only a chance of a scratch, but giving the person an infection.”

42. cherryblossomlife - March 15, 2012

I am a transwoman, coz they’re the same as me. So I now speak for all transwomen when I say that it’s sick to try to coerce people who don’t fancy you into the bedroom.

FCM - March 15, 2012

haha! yes i am trans too bc i dont fit in the gender box. so are all FAABs who dont fit in the gender box, which is all radical feminists. and THEREFORE, speaking on behalf of all radfems, and therefore for all trans, i think what redacted trans said was sick, and that this panty-busting poonani conference is straight-up rapeism and misogyny, and that it should be canceled, with a blanket apology to all women issued immediately.

*still waiting to hear them say ‘well women and transwomen arent exactly the same, but the differences are irrelevant, yeah that it.’*

43. K - March 15, 2012

Ugh.

Just got done trying to speak to a former friend who is now trans.

In the spirit of this wonderful entry into FCM’s most excellent blog, I attempted to follow [redacted lesbian]‘s example and be polite and use logic and present the idea that maybe transwimmin AREN’T entitled to use woman-only spaces. What did I get?

TWANZPHOOOBE. Because only nasty ol’ twanzphobes think that women should be able to spend time together without someone barging in and dominating everything.

*sigh*

And I used to think this person was super cool on top of it.

Fucking patriarchy. :c

44. DavinaSquirrel - March 15, 2012

Great quotes and analysis IBP.

As was said above, the expression “cotton ceiling” is rapetastic, the conference is rapetastic – their entire political stance is rapetastic towards FABs.

And yet, they really wonder why we don’t want them in FAB spaces? LOL, teh stoopid, it burns. It’s very much like not wanting paedophiles becoming kindergarten teachers, and being called paedophilephobic for it.

45. Lesbians offer Lesbian.com site domain to Pornographers for whatevah they can pay « GenderTrender - March 15, 2012

[...] And Planned Parenthood, who now sponsors seminars for heterosexual males on how to break through the “cotton ceiling”: the “barrier” men face when trying to have sex with women who are lesbian and who do not [...]

46. Twiggy Danger « Pretendbians: Exactly Like Lesbians, Except Not - March 15, 2012

[...] CAMAB Share this:TwitterFacebookLike this:LikeBe the first to like this post. Tags: pretendbian [...]

47. just some person - March 15, 2012

Folks such as [redacted trans] are the most extreme examples of male PUA’s around.

They disguise themselves as something they aren’t, just like a typical PUA – presenting as female – and then using negging and shaming techniques to bully women into fucking them.

48. April - March 15, 2012

mechantechatonne, you’ve touched on something that I’ve been thinking about too – trans women lesbians having sex with each other. In general, do they view each other as “viable sex partners”?

It seems like the answer SHOULD be yes, based on the trans logic that trans women = women. But if the answer is yes, then what they’re essentially saying with “the cotton ceiling” is not that lesbians won’t have sex with them (because trans lesbians are lesbians), it’s that cis lesbians won’t have sex with them. And this can only be an “issue” if you believe that cis lesbians are different from trans lesbians, which completely contradicts that trans women = women.

And if the answer is no, as a general rule, trans lesbians don’t consider each other viable sex partners, well that just automatically contradicts that trans women = women.

So either way, this is just illogical. For any of this to make sense, you either have to abandon the idea of the cotton ceiling, or admit that trans women are women except when it better suits them not to be.

49. Nicky - March 15, 2012

After reading the post, I almost face palm my brain out and tried to wonder how deluded can these trans be. It just goes to show how low and how deluded they can go. It just shows that Trans are as deluded as a schizophrenic or a bipolar person.

50. parallelexistence - March 15, 2012

What everyone else said.

51. Witch - March 15, 2012

I remember when someone on Tumblr posted a link do wikipedia about sex differences on humans when some twanz complained about not being seen as a boy/girl (Probably it was F2T). S/he responded with “All I see is a daily dose of transphobia and bigotry.”

So yeah, when Nature and biology are transphobic, there’s something really wrong here.

I identify as a transfloating. That means I was born earthbound, but I know, I feel I belong floating in the air, like some plants, seeds and balloons. If you tell me the basic laws of gravity and tell me I can’t float because I don’t have the bodily structure to do that, I’ll call you a transphobe and call it a day and keep transfloating.

FCM - March 16, 2012

im a trans millionaire. someone fetch me some fancy champagne NOOOOOOOOOOOOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! if someone doesnt get me the fancy champagne i believe i am entitled to i am likely to start with the rapey death threats. youve all been warned.

52. RoseVerbena - March 16, 2012

You’re dealing with insanity here. Plain and simple. Garden variety delusions, really. When a person is insane, what they feel, think and say often makes zero sense to sane people. It comes with the territory.

Any male who thinks that just by DECLARING himself “female” and “a lesbian”, he should instantly become SEEN as a female and a lesbian by sane people is…insane.

It’s the Emperor’s New Clothes all over again.

If you look at HIM and say, “Well, I see a 6’1″ dude with big male shoulders, big male hands, a big male jawline, a big male brow line, a receding male hairline, stubble, an Adam’s apple, a hairy chest with big male pecs, not much ass to speak of, a penis and testicles, hammy male thighs, huge male feet, and a whole lot of male entitlement and male privilege — NOT a woman and NOT a lesbian”, what then? HE may label you “transphobic” and “transmisogynist” and “cis” whateverthefark, but the FACT is that you are simple seeing reality for what it is and calling it as you see it.

Not female. Therefore, NOT a lesbian. It’s pretty simple and straightforward to people who are not afraid to befriend reality.

By the way, the term “the cotton ceiling” evokes imagery of rape to me, i.e. trying to “break through” the “cotton ceiling” or “bust” the “cotton ceiling”. It’s typically male double-speak that evokes the threat of force as they “demand” their “right” to “break down the barrier” of being sexually refused by real lesbians.

Sick, sick, sick, sick, sick.

53. RoseVerbena - March 16, 2012

@ witch: “…I hope you step on legos, you bigot…”

Thanks for the LOLs.

Priceless.

54. RoseVerbena - March 16, 2012

OK, I made my first comment before I read any of the other comments.

I’m relieve to see that I’m not the only one who found the term “cotton ceiling” to be rape-speak and very offensive.

Hello?

FCM - March 16, 2012

This whole thing has rape written all over it, and it becomes more sickening the more I look at it. I can’t believe they are having a MAAB only pickup workshop dedicated to busting panties. They aren’t even trying to hide it anymore.

55. RoseVerbena - March 16, 2012

Yep, FCM. Sickening is exactly the right word.

I was briefly stalked by one of these “trans woman” dudes. He was very upset that I didn’t want to be his “lesbian lover” after his very-partial transition. Gak.

His go-to technique when I didn’t just fall into his arms was a ham-handed attempt at manipulative coercion and a thinly veiled threat. He did this whole hinting-around-about-suicide thing while making sure that I realized there was a lot of anger behind it (murder-suicide, anyone?)

Please note that he was a practical stranger who had been given ZERO sexual or romantic encouragement from me in the first place. I knew him through business and had made the mistake of being nice to him, which was all he needed to fixate on me (huge mistake on my part, in hindsight.)

I managed to verbally strong-arm him OUT of my life eventually, no doubt because he was afraid that I’d report his behavior to his boss. But what kind of creep even goes where he went in the first place? I’ll tell you what kind of creep: an entitled, privileged male creep with some serious mental health issues.

“Lesbian” my hind foot.

56. bugbrennan - March 16, 2012

Laydees just give it up, we are not the cool kids either.

57. DavinaSquirrel - March 16, 2012

@ April
do they view each other as “viable sex partners”?
The answer is sometimes (frequently actually, most non-trans cannot tolerate them for any length of time). See: http://twanzphobic.wordpress.com/2011/10/28/tootsies-of-the-week-bridal-edition/

Your logical analysis is correct, except for the ‘trans logic’ factor which negates reality whenever they feel like it, which is often – they like to have things both ways simultaneously, that is, ‘yes they are exactly the same as FABs’ and ‘no, they are more speshul than FABs’.

This whole ‘cotton ceiling’ crap is for the M2Ts that like to tick the boxes for ‘passing’. A pretendbian having sex with a lesbian is just their ‘proof’ that they have ‘really passed’ as a FAB-female. It’s a passing game. They do other crap like joining women’s groups, feminist groups, and female-only spaces for the exact same reason, to feed their delusion of ‘passing’. Most FABs are just too polite to say they don’t pass, and the M2Ts take this social etiquette as ‘proof’ they have ‘passed’ (do any of us think the two ‘brides’ pass even remotely?). These infiltration games are supported by the UK Govt, in order for them to get their Gender Recognition Certificate, they have to live as “the acquired gender (sic) for two years”. Full SRS is entirely optional, before or after the GRC. How that works in practise is that well over half of these “laydees” are still packing penis, and want to keep it that way.

In the UK, the majority obtaining the GRC are M2T and late transitioners (which means most pass about as well as Arnold Schwarzenegger in “Junior”). And I believe that most of these late transitioners are heterosexual males who continue with the same orientation, hence we have an abundance of rather dudely-looking pretendbians running around, trying to prove their ‘womanliness’ as lesbians (penis status completely irrelevant to them, and lesbian distaste of penis also irrelevant to them). As males, they don’t really care how they obtain a fuck, whether it be a pity fuck (“oh you poor thing”), a guilt fuck (“you are transphobic if you don’t fuck me”) or fuck by deception (“surprise!!!”).

@ Witch
So yeah, when Nature and biology are transphobic, there’s something really wrong here.

LOL, yep, nature and biology, very transphobic!

FCM - March 16, 2012

omg that sandeen video. hey dood: why not try quoting (and reading) a couple of feminists to illustrate your points? oh yeah, your points arent feminist points. and trans politics arent feminist politics. where trans politics implicates sexual politics, and it does on every point, (in addition to implicating liberal male politics) trans falls on the wrong side. why cant they get that? oh yeah….bc they are men.

58. GallusMag - March 16, 2012

59. RoseVerbena - March 16, 2012

@ GallusMag — re. the video.

Eww.

60. Cynthia - March 16, 2012

What’s with the get-up that trans stuck on in that video? o.o

61. Nicky - March 16, 2012

@GallusMag, I think I am going to hurl my lunch out.

62. RoseVerbena - March 16, 2012

@ Cynthia — it looks like some kind of sick-o version of a Girl Guides or Girls Scouts uniform, only in black.

Anything to flap their junk under a too-short dress. Gak.

63. Lydia - March 16, 2012

The “Overcoming the Cotton Ceiling” workshop is for a conference held by Planned Parenthood of Toronto.

http://pleasureandpossibilities.com/programming/workshop-descriptions/

Kate Klein is in charge of workshops. Her email is kklein@ppt.on.ca,

Planned Parenthood Toronto can be reached here:

Phone: (416) 961-0113
Fax: (416) 961-2512
Email: ppt@ppt.on.ca

The national and international offices are listed as:

Planned Parenthood Federation of America
434 West 33rd Street
New York, NY 10001
212-541-7800
FAX 212-245-1845

Planned Parenthood Federation of America
1110 Vermont Ave. NW
Suite 300
Washington, DC 20005
202-973-4800
FAX: 202-296-3242

Seriously, we need to write and call with some outrage. This is horrifying. They are promoting RAPE at that Toronto conference.

64. RoseVerbena - March 17, 2012

Thanks Lydia! I think I’ll send them all a letter.

This kind of creepy behavior should not be promoted or condoned by Planned Parenthood. Creepy!

65. RoseVerbena - March 17, 2012

Details on the facilitator for this super-creepy workshop:

“Morgan M Page (facilitator of “Overcoming the Cotton Ceiling: Breaking Down Sexual Barriers for Queer Trans Women“) is a transfeminist activist, performance + video artist, writer, and Santera currently living in Toronto. She works as Trans Community Services Coordinator at The 519 Church Street Community Centre, coordinating programs for trans youth, trans adults, and trans sex workers. In June 2011, she was the recipient of the Youthline’s Oustanding Contribution to Community Empowerment award. She writes for PrettyQueer.com, and speaks and performs locally and internationally.”

http://pleasureandpossibilities.com/about/about-the-facilitators/

Isn’t that special? He gets awards for his “community empowerment”.

Gak.

66. Nicky - March 17, 2012

Thanks Lydia!, that will be one place I will never donate money to. I think feminist should do what the Teamsters have done, Make a list of places that support the tranz and their warped delusions. Make a shame list that put twanz before women.

It is creepy that of all places, Planned parenthood is supporting, promoting and even allowing an event that includes delusional men

67. cherryblossomlife - March 17, 2012

“It’s a passing game. They do other crap like joining women’s groups, feminist groups, and female-only spaces for the exact same reason, to feed their delusion of ‘passing’. ”

davina, this is exactly it!! What they especially like, these men, these men who want to be women, is to work in rape crisis centres.. which is so fucked up I can barely see straight to write it.
WHen rape crisis centres refuse, on the grounds that talking to a guy, albeit one wearing lipstick, it’s not even an option that should even be PRESENTED to a rape victim, these m2Fs SUE. Meaning the rape crisis centres have to waste valuable resources fighting them in court, resources that could otherwise have been spent on women. You can’t help getting the feeling that a m2T who wants to listen to women’s rape stories has more sinister motivations than being validated by women.

I’d heard of the case in Australia, and after just now doing a quick google it turns out LOTS of trans women want to work in rape crisis centres, and LOTS of them have sued the centres for not allowing them. Here’s an extract from Julie Bindel reporting on this phenomenon:

” The British Columbia supreme court in Vancouver recently overturned an earlier decision of the human rights tribunal that Vancouver Rape Relief had breached the human rights code when it refused to allow Kimberley Nixon, a male to female transsexual, to train as a counsellor of female rape victims. In 2002, Nixon had won $7,500, the highest amount ever awarded by the tribunal, for injury to “her dignity”.

The arrogance is staggering: having not experienced life as a “woman” until middle age, Nixon assumed “she” would be suitable to counsel women who have chosen to access a service that offers support from women who have suffered similar experiences, not from a man in a dress! The Rape Relief sisters, who do not believe a surgically constructed vagina and hormonally grown breasts make you a woman, successfully challenged the ruling and, for now at least, the law says that to suffer discrimination as a woman you have to be, er, a woman. ”

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/jan/31/gender.weekend7

Feminism has not even reached first base if we can’T keep delusional men with rapist mentalities out of rape crisis centres.

68. Lydia - March 17, 2012

And the Canadian ruling has now been used twice as a legal precedent to defend First Nations people when (one guess–just one) white men insisted that they had a right to join. The court told the whities no, because of the VRR ruling. Same principle. The Hight Court gets it. What the f is wrong with everyone else???

69. Lydia - March 17, 2012

Planned Parenthood is under serious stress and scrutiny right now in the US. We could actually make this a big headache for them. This is another media shit storm waiting to happen.

If enough of us write or call, the people in charge at PP may see sense, or at least see the public relations disaster.

Seriously, post, tweet, and blog this info EVERYWHERE.

FCM - March 17, 2012

so now we have to decide whether to give PP a giant pain in the ass, and make them spend resources defending and/or denying this shit. trans assholes, you are derailing and destructive. get out.

70. Nicky - March 17, 2012

I think if you follow the Teamsters Playbook, maybe you all can put enough pressure and heat on Planned Parenthood that they will have to dump the trans assholes and kick them out for their own good.

Also, one of the ways I have seen them try to pass in society is trying to claim intersex and claiming to be both. Some think that by claiming intersex, they can pass in society and to them it’s like a merit badge to pretend and try to pass as intersex. One example, from the Uk http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2109384/Ive-changed-gender-times-Young-woman-reveals-she-intersex-28.html

71. Linda Radfem - March 18, 2012

Pleasure and possibilities? This is so gross, however, probably no different to the seduction community techniques that men not in denial about being men, pay thousands to learn about.

RoseVerbena – “…speak of, a penis… ”

Oh my godesses. Reading quickly and without my glasses, I read this part as “a speck of a penis” so many lolz

72. DavinaSquirrel - March 18, 2012

You can’t help getting the feeling that a m2T who wants to listen to women’s rape stories has more sinister motivations than being validated by women.

Yes Cherry, you are right, this is certainly an additional motivation for the pervy element – and we all know how much males love rape, being a major theme in porn. This stampede into Rape Crisis and DV services (mainly the former) does not add up when you look at the percentage of males who normally do (usually unpaid) community work of any kind – the males that work in the charity sector are usually in paid positions and management positions – whereas the absolute majority of unpaid workers in the charity sector are female. This stampede by M2Ts into one specific section of volunteer work just does not add up. The heterosexual males that become M2T pretendbians should really sound the alarm bells, specifically all the late transitioners who have lived most of their adult lives as men.

The 2005 Court of Appeal decision for VRR is an important one. But that only came after a nearly ten-year legal battle that jeapodised VRR’s finances and the organisation. Nixon putting the organisation in jeapody like that really does prove his unsuitability for the role he demanded to do. Not all FABs who want to work in such areas are accepted either, but Nixon, being an entitled male would not take ‘no’ for an answer.

http://www.rapereliefshelter.bc.ca/learn/resources/vancouver-rape-relief-society-v-nixon-2005-bcca-601-summary-decision

73. RoseVerbena - March 18, 2012

@ cherryblossomlife: “Feminism has not even reached first base if we can’t keep delusional men with rapist mentalities out of rape crisis centres.’

Exactly! That’s all rape survivors need, isn’t it? To be served up on a plate by their local rape crisis center to some creepy, delusional DUDE in a dress with a faux whispery voice and a too-short skirt who is there for one reason and one reason only: his own fetid self-gratification.

It makes me want to SCREAM.

74. RoseVerbena - March 18, 2012

@ Linda Radfem: … “speck of a penis”… LOL

75. Nicky - March 18, 2012

Reblogged this on Living Kallmann’s Syndrome and commented:
Not only is their a Cotton Ceiling, their is also a genetic DNA Ceiling that Transgender people will never, ever break. It’s a barrier that they will never, ever be able to pass.

76. cherryblossomlife - March 19, 2012

Nicky, science is not their strong point. The male politicians that support trans activism can’t even grasp the basics, which is interesting when you consider that men are supposed to be good as science, and that politicians are supposed to be natural leaders…

77. bugbrennan - March 19, 2012
78. womononajourney - March 19, 2012

Am I the only one bothered by the “Let’s Play Doctor!” reference posted in “The Tingle and Mingle Room” ? So now a child’s game is *supposed* to be sexual?! (After all, this is a conference about “pleasure and possibilities”, right??). Also, they stress “informed consent,” as a conference value yet the workshop discussed is all about ways to get around what women really want! Just goes to show you how meaningless the word “consent” is, even to those who use it.

79. bugbrennan - March 19, 2012

A friend also reminded me of this song

and its lyric:

You’ve got a pussy,
I have a dick,
So what’s the problem?
Let’s do it quick.

FCM - March 19, 2012

neener neener, sex pozzer agrees that “cotton ceiling” is rapey and reeks of “male entitlement to cispussy”

I don’t hate you, and neither does my underwear. But we’d both like you to please stop saying dumb shit.
Has anyone ever heard of the “cotton ceiling”? Are you ready for this?

“The cotton ceiling is a theory proposed by trans porn star and activist Drew DeVeaux to explain the experiences queer trans women have with simultaneous social inclusion and sexual exclusion within the broader queer women’s communities. Basically, it means that cis queer women will be friends with us and talk day and night about trans rights and ending transmisogyny, but will still not consider us viable sexual partners.
The term cotton ceiling is a reference to the “glass ceiling” that second wave feminist identified in the workforce, wherein women could only advance so high in the workforce but could not break through into positions of power and authority. The cotton represents underwear, signifying sex.”*

Seriously? Y’all want to “break through” the glass ceiling of my underwear? Warning: this is my first non-fluff ladyface entry. I’ll get back to puppies and pastries next week, I promise.

An open letter to Ms. DeVeaux:

Hi Drew,

I just saw the retweet of the argument on factcheckme.wordpress.com between redacted trans and redacted lesbian regarding your notion of the “cotton ceiling”. And I am truly sorry to read the genuinely transphobic language from some of the ciswomen in the ensuing comment thread.

I’m a sex positive queer femme self identified cislady and a trans ally. I date transmen and butch women because I am attracted to female born masculine people. I know that I am not more of an ally because I sleep with transguys. I’m a trans ally regardless of who I’m sleeping with. And I do recognize that transmen are men and transwomen are women. And folks from each group can be crazy sexy like woah. Unfortunately, you and redacted trans just come off as regular crazy.

Your comparison of my underwear (which is much sexier than cotton, btw) to the glass ceiling is HORRENDOUSLY OFFENSIVE. Ciswomens insistance on retaining the hard won right to CHOOSE WHO WE SLEEP WITH is not oppressing you anymore than my choice of lube is. I will not be bullied into pretending to be attracted to someone I am not attracted to, or feel guilty for not being attracted to someone I’m not attracted to or pity fuck someone I’m not attracted to.

And I REALLY RESENT the assumption that my sexuality is fluid because I’m a queer ciswoman. I know what I like. I like masculine female born folks. That said, if I met a transwoman and there was mutual attraction we might sleep together. Because I know what I like, and I’m open to new experiences. And those two thoughts are not contradictory.

The absurd sense of entitlement that the notion of a cotton ceiling embodies is, in my experience, characteristic of male born folks. And if you’re going to try to deny that gender socialization has affected your view of the world and how much pussy you deserve, well, that’s just as silly as redacted trans overlooking the difference between birth sex and identity entirely. “There is nothing inherently male about a woman’s body, unless she identified things about it as male herself. So, no, I do not consider trans women with penises to be male-bodied, unless that is how they identify.”* The tactical use of feigned ignorance to bolster her flawed analogy makes her look ridiculous.

Frankly, I’m surprised that you’re surprised by the response to your “cotton ceiling” idea. Did it really not occur to you that ciswomen (like most folks really) don’t like it when others try to tell us who we should and should not be attracted to? Ciswomen are STILL fighting a very public battle for the right to control our own bodies. And queers and allies are still fighting for recognition of three basic tenets of human rights that I had thought were at least understood and recognized within the queer community:

1. People don’t choose their sexuality or choose who they are attracted to. (remember? It’s not a “lifestyle” or a “preference” it’s an orientation)
2. Everyone should have the right to choose who they fuck.
3. Everyone should have the right to say no to sex for any reason and have that choice respected.

With this in mind, how could it possibly be surprising that your “cotton ceiling” hit a nerve? Rapey? YES! Of course this idea is rapey. That doesn’t mean I think you want to rape women, it means I think you are using the logic of rape culture (ie entitlement to cispussy) to present a flawed argument for transwomen inclusion. Of course transwomen should be included in the queer community. But access to cis-sex doesn’t equal inclusion and you don’t have a RIGHT to sleep with queer ciswomen any more than transmen or butch women do. All queer women are different (like snowflakes and butt holes). Some of us are attracted to transfolks and some aren’t. And some of us might not want to fuck anyone at all thanks.

I’m HORRIFIED that this idea came from within the queer community. It sounds a hell of a lot like you’re regurgitating the shit you internalized from your experience being raised male in a heterocentric world. And I really hope this ridiculous idea doesn’t gain traction within the queer community.

I think transwomen are beautiful, wonderful folks and I know you don’t speak for all transwomen. But seriously lady, whether you kept your boy bits or not, that’s no excuse to act like a dick.

Love,

Ladyface

http://1ladyface.blogspot.com/2012/03/i-dont-hate-you-and-neither-does-my.html?zx=d6b7ef7550487249

FCM - March 19, 2012

i like how, even when they agree with radfems that trans are being rapey (or whatever) the sex pozzers FIRST have to APOLOGIZE TO TEH RAPEY TRANS (or whomever) for radfems being mean. poor, poor rapey trans, sorry you were offended, thats inexcusable, but let me educate you about how you offended me because im sure it was all just a big misunderstanding when you did it, but the radfems were being offensive on purpose, which is a capital crime BTW, and THEY MEANT what they said (and are mean!) while YOU just made a mistake (albeit a rapey one).

poor, poor teh rapey trans.

FCM - March 19, 2012

are they ever going to learn that teh rapey trans are rapey ON PURPOSE because they have rape mentalities that are permanent and they dont want to change it anyway bc they enjoy being rapey bc it supports their (male) power? hello. this is not an accident, and its not a mistake. sorry.

80. bugbrennan - March 19, 2012
81. BadDyke - March 19, 2012

“are they ever going to learn that teh rapey trans are rapey ON PURPOSE because they have rape mentalities that are permanent and they dont want to change it anyway bc they enjoy being rapey bc it supports their (male) power? hello. this is not an accident, and its not a mistake. sorry.”

Yes, yes, YES. Cos they LIKE it.

So, we have really nasty rapey comments (an HONEST mistake obviously, let me re-educate you), as compared to radfems being mean and transphobic — we’re OBVIOUSLY beyond redemption and re-education……….

I also noticed how sad and shallow the supposed ‘human rights’ were for the queer community:

“1. People don’t choose their sexuality or choose who they are attracted to. (remember? It’s not a “lifestyle” or a “preference” it’s an orientation)
2. Everyone should have the right to choose who they fuck.
3. Everyone should have the right to say no to sex for any reason and have that choice respected.

1) What’s WRONG with choosing women/men/whatever, why do we need to keep insisting that we can’t help it cos we were born this way? Weak and feeble, and just panders to the same biological determinism that the trans crowd adheres to, desperately looking for a ‘birth defect’ that will explain their girly brain…………..

If we had more people willing to just say — I sleep with X because I WANT TO, and WHY should you have a problem with that? Ditto, I’m having major surgical reconstruction of my genitalia etc, not because I think I’ve got a girly brain, or because I think I’m a woman, just because I WANT TO.

I’m not saying I wouldn’t have other problems with such elective surgery, but at least we’d have got away from the ‘I’m really a woman’ nonsense.

Conscious choice, or biological determinism, seems the queer camp is unable to handle any more complicated or realistic alternatives.

82. Sargasso Sea - March 19, 2012

I like how “cislady” first says that it’s a basic human rights tenet that we don’t “choose” our sexuality (born that way are we???) then turns right around and says we should have a right to “choose” who we have sex with…

More trans*ideology that she’s swallowed whole: I can deny something exists and insist it’s also my human right!

Bah.

83. Moron “The Cotton Ceiling” « femonade - March 19, 2012

[...] ensue when trying to plug in variables (facts) and getting reproducible results.  ie.  that lesbian transwomen are the same as lesbian women.  but the fact that it doesnt work (ie. its invalid) doesnt make it any less of a [...]

84. Nicky - March 19, 2012

@cherryblossomlife that’s the one barrier that trans will never get pass, it’s the Science and DNA barrier. It must be one of their weakest points

85. BadDyke - March 19, 2012

“I like how “cislady” first says that it’s a basic human rights tenet that we don’t “choose” our sexuality (born that way are we???) then turns right around and says we should have a right to “choose” who we have sex with…”

Yes, but the problem is us lesbians AREN’T DOING IT RIGHT! We’re ‘supposed’ to be attracted to the female jenduh (which includes trans-pretend-lesbians with dicks), because they say so.

Yes, you are allowed to choose (whoopee-do thanks guys!), as long as we choose from within the right set, and lesbians again keep doing it wrong. So, you’re allowed to reject a pretendbian, but only cos she is an ignorant arsehole, NOT because she’s got a dick. But since all of them are ignorant arseholes……………………..

86. Meg Cowie - March 19, 2012

OK, I’m a cis heterosexual female, married for 20 years to a man (I thought) who, after transition and realignment surgery now has the apparent physical sex that matches the gender that she has always had in her head (i.e. she regards herself as gay female). She found this piece, read it through twice, took notes, then asked me to read it. I have read it twice, checked her notes and checked my notes. We are in full agreement: That trans woman is talking crap. It makes no sense on any level. However she presents herself, she obviously does not suffer the gender dysphoria and dysmorphia that so many trans women have to deal with. However much I would have liked my girl to keep her penis (I’m straight, remember), I knew that couldn’t happen, because she could not be a woman with a penis.
It is the height of arrogance to say that any woman, regardless of her presentation, is mysogenistic because she doesn’t want to sleep with a woman with a penis.
Many trans women, either because of financial difficulties or health problems, may not be able to have the surgery required to turn the ‘outie’ into an ‘innie’, but if they are on any kind of hormone replacement therapy (and most of them are) their penises simply don’t work as sexual organs. They become flaccid and incapable of erection, so I really don’t know where this redacted trans person is coming from.
I have the right to sleep with whomsoever I choose, and to reject the others. I don’t know if it has occurred to Redacted Trans, but maybe the reason that no one will sleep with her is not because she is trans with a penis, but simply because she is not a nice person.

FCM - March 19, 2012

However much I would have liked my girl to keep her penis (I’m straight, remember), I knew that couldn’t happen, because she could not be a woman with a penis.

well women arent MAAB XY’s with prostates either meg, but i am willing to let that slide FOR NOW. thank you for a reasonable comment. agree that redacted trans has other problems besides being trans.

FCM - March 19, 2012

i shouldve said SOMEWHAT reasonable, bc its not reasonable at all to expect that lesbians should fuck a transwoman with OR WITHOUT a penis. but we are in trans-world here, where some things (everything?) is relative, donchaknow, including reasonableness.

but the truth remains. transwomen arent female. end of.

87. smash - March 19, 2012

From [redacted lesbian]: If you oppose the cotton ceiling, sign this. http://www.thepetitionsite.com/917/570/206/support-womens-sexual-autonomy/

88. Support Women’s Right to Sexual Autonomy! « Feminism: The Liberation Movement of Womyn - March 20, 2012

[...] that women have good reasons to stay away from sexual activity with MAABs, including the fact that we may have to start taking birth control if we get involved with them. Bottom line is, this workshop is taking place in a global male [...]

89. Parker Wolf - March 20, 2012

I have to wonder – when a MTF doesnt want to fuck another MTF, do they also consider that their cotton ceiling or a barrier that needs to be broken? Is the MTF who doesnt want to fuck another MTF also considered a “transmisogynist” or a transphobe or a bigot?

Or does that honor only fall on us females who dont want to fuck people with penises?

90. nic - March 20, 2012

so do you all not consider trans men to be men b/c they still have a vulva/vagina? you all seem to be quite fixated on the potential of there being a penis. no one said sex with a trans woman, who may not even have a penis, would involve PIV sex.

additionally, the trans woman quoted in the piece above is not confusing. she is making an incredibly clear argument that you all simply don’t understand.

the activism within this area doesn’t involve specific encounters of someone not being sexually attracted to a woman, trans or not. it involves the over-arching stripping of trans women of their desirability.

compare it to the ways society deems fat people or those with disabilities undesirable.

FCM - March 20, 2012

LOL we understand it nic. we understand it and we strongly disagree. also, redacted trans never said that “sex” did NOT include PIV with a bepenised transwoman. regardless, female-bodied people can and do become impregnated without penetration or full penetration of an erect penis. it is unacceptable to place women in harms way like that.

91. ibleedpurple - March 20, 2012

Well, we really do have the make it extra easy for the mentally ill-equipped:

For lesbians sex is a deal breaker. They won’t make love to someone who doesn’t have the sex they desire. Sex is not a construct, it really exists.

The undesireability of fat and disabled people is a value judgement made by large portions of society. It is a construct.

Sex cannot be changed, value judgements can be changed.

In every case, treating sex as a tribute that needs to be paid in order for people to feel legitimate is a poisonous idea that directly supports rape culture and patriachal conceptions of sexuality.

92. bugbrennan - March 20, 2012

THIS: “In every case, treating sex as a tribute that needs to be paid in order for people to feel legitimate is a poisonous idea that directly supports rape culture and patriachal conceptions of sexuality.”

Yes.

93. Paige - March 20, 2012

“redacted trans was talking about in his email” – you are so disrespectful and fear-mongering here and it is so sad. No one is trying to force anyone else and we are all marginalized here. This divisiveness is destructive.

FCM - March 20, 2012

This divisiveness is destructive.

trans-lation: feminism is destructive to patriarchy. centering womens reality is destructive to male power. cant we call just get along by letting men do whatever they want and not upsetting men, before they start using violence to enforce the status quo?

FCM - March 20, 2012

and WHAT IBP SAID!

Meg Cowie - March 20, 2012

What I read through the entirety of Redacted Trans conversation was a MASSIVE sense of entitlement. The logic was faulty, and basically boiled down to “because I have made the decisions I have made, you have to accept me for what I perceive myself to be, and have sex with me because if you don’t you are a bad person”.

Sorry – it don’t work like that. Any person of Any gender, sex, presentation, or whatever, is entitled to say no to sex of any type or kind, with Any other person for Any reason or none. Anything else is rape. to borrow a quote from FCM. “End of”.

This is the kind of trans ‘activism’ that gives trans women in general a bad name. (well, one of the kinds. The other kind is the frilly mini skirt and bad wig variety).

94. emily - March 20, 2012

hey guys,

this comment will probably get deleted as well. i’m unfamiliar with wordpress and its rules and regulations but since this content is indefinitely disturbing and offensive to viewers and may very well work as a trigger for trans individuals, i’ve reported this thread. i have no idea if that will make any difference.

thanks.

FCM - March 20, 2012

you do that emily. LOL do check out WP’s guidelines though, before you waste your time. from what i can tell, they dont remove anything unless its clearly illegal, and even then, they consult with their legal department first. they dont just remove things bc you tell them to, or bc you dont like it. having read the guidelines long ago, i recall that basically they recommend that you get over it, or try to engage the blog authors in conversation. this is not my first rodeo, and you arent my first hater mkay thanks.

95. Lilly (@Bruce_Lilly) - March 20, 2012

Quick! Let’s report this thread! It’s a trigger for oppressors and trans trolls! As we know there is no free speech and women’s sexual freedom in trans land. Only the gender dogma and its incredible deluded followers. The ideology has gone crazy. Maybe that’s the final peak?

96. bugbrennan - March 20, 2012

The workshop is also sponsored by the Sherbourne Health Centre, home of the famous meanie Xander Sarkisova. You can read about him here http://bugbrennan.com/2012/03/14/silence-continues-from-sherbourne-health-centre/ and here http://gendertrender.wordpress.com/2012/01/02/whats-up-with-toronto-sherbourne-health-center-threatening-lesbians/

97. WTF is up with the Sherbourne Health Centre in Toronto? « You think I just don't understand, but I don't believe you. - March 20, 2012

[...] Second, Sherbourne Health Centre is co-sponsoring a workship with PLANNED PARENTHOOD to teach MAABs how to penetrate the barrier of Lesbian Underwear? [...]

98. bugbrennan - March 20, 2012
99. bugbrennan - March 21, 2012
100. The Genetic DNA Ceiling « Living Kallmann’s Syndrome - March 21, 2012

[...] 2012 Nicky Leave a comment Go to comments After reading some post online about the so called Cotton Ceiling, I have to believe that their is such thing as a Cotton Ceiling. The so [...]

101. LMAO! « GenderTrender - March 22, 2012
102. Ashland Avenue - March 22, 2012

“indefinitely (sic) disturbing and offensive to viewers and may very well work as a trigger for trans individuals”

Oh, this is simply PRICEless. Poor “Emily” – such a fragile little hothouse flower! How DO you make it through life, dear? So any discussion which critiques trans politics and actions will work as a “trigger” for trans individuals. Hmmm….

Tell me, “Emily,” following your logic, shall I “report” 99% of the internet, ’cause it’s a “trigger” for me as a female? As a feminist? No, I probably shouldn’t, because I’d be laughed off the fucking planet. As should you. I do have to wonder if you’re “reporting” all the porn sites that feature scenes of horrible violence against women, as those are certainly “indefinitely (sic) disturbing and offensive.” No, something tells me you only claim this butthurt when it’s born women talking about the damage that MtF trans people do, due to your ingrained misogyny and overarching need to dominate womens’ conversations and dialogue. Nice try, but we know what you are. We know your tactics. We are too smart for you, and that scares the hell out of you. :)

FCM - March 22, 2012

yes radfem trans analysis = triggering. therefore its not allowed. try again asshats.

103. Who said it: Captain Kirk or MTF trans? « scum-o-rama! - March 22, 2012

[...] more here and here. Like this:Like3 bloggers like this post. from → douchebaggery, FCM, LOL, [...]

FCM - March 22, 2012

handmade pingback:

http://scumorama.wordpress.com/2012/03/22/who-said-it-captain-kirk-or-mtf-trans/

kirk

click on link to see image in full size

104. TRANSPHOBIA! « scum-o-rama! - March 22, 2012

[...] more here and here. Like this:LikeBe the first to like this post. from → douchebaggery, FCM, mansplainers, rape [...]

FCM - March 22, 2012
105. RoseVerbena - March 23, 2012

@nic – “…she is making an incredibly clear argument that you all simply don’t understand,,,”

LOL — Obviously we need a man to explain it to us!

Someone MANsplain it, please! Our little pink brains need help!

(Oy.)

106. Sugarpuss - March 23, 2012

Okay. So now that I have finally discovered what the “cotton ceiling” is (Transjive for RAPE), all I have to say is…

Men: predictable as ever.

However… as tempting as it may be to pass this off as yet another example of male pervishness, I’d suggest it’s something more along the lines of an elaborate (and malicious) revenge scheme; men punishing ‘uppity lesbians’ for denying them the opportunity to dominate their lives in the same fashion as heterosexual women.

Not only is this “cotton ceiling” a mockery of Feminist theory, but it also appears to be a half-assed attempt at drawing a parallel between the Fat Acceptance movement (or similar groups) and, of all things, the PUA community. Yeeeah…ummm…NO. Getting laid is not a human right, it’s a privilege. Whatever someone’s reason may be for declining a proposition is irrelivent; sex is supposed to be about mutual attraction. Coercion is the tool of degenerates.

So, yeah… snake oil for sale, basically.

107. Sue D. Nim - March 25, 2012

It’s quite clever actually. They’re calling the bluff of lesbian trans supporters. So you really think that that MTFs (even those with penises) are no different from women with xy chromosomes and female reproductive organs? Okay then, why won’t you let them penetrate you?

It’s easy to make proclamations like “the emperor’s clothes are beautiful.” But how many are willing to sit on that vinyl chair that that emperor was just sitting on?

Hopefully, this “final frontier” will force lesbian trans allies to admit that they’ve been lying to themselves. MTFs are not men. Penises are not female.

It’s a test–one that I hope many lesbians fail. Because where does it end? How many dicks do lesbian trans allies have to suck to prove that they’re not transphobic?

108. Sue D. Nim - March 25, 2012

I meant “MTFs are not women.”

109. RoseVerbena - March 26, 2012

@ Sue D. Nim — “It’s easy to make proclamations like ‘the emperor’s clothes are beautiful.’ But how many are willing to sit on that vinyl chair that that emperor was just sitting on?”

Ewwww….and LOL…and exactly!

“Penises are not female.”

Can you believe we have to argue this point? With dudes? With dudes who are being enabled by Planned Parenthood? And with some very confused lesbians?

Sheesh. Seriously.

110. Lilly (@Bruce_Lilly) - March 26, 2012

““Penises are not female.”
“Can you believe we have to argue this point? ”

What do you expect? Logic? A sense of reality? Lol! It’s the holy trans empire after all. Finally they lost their grip on reality. Now everything is going downhill. I really wonder what comes next? Burning biology books? A law that prevents people from even mentioning the evolution of the two sexes? Whatever it is, its way more crazy and bizarre one can imagine.Please tell us your next absurd idea dear great heterosexual dictators in drag! [/irony off]

As you can see, don’t take these dudes serious. It’s impossible for them to deny reality for long. They are exactly like religious fanatics. No, the are fanatics and their dogma is made of homophobia and misogyny.

111. An Open Letter to the National Center for Transgende​r Equality on the Cotton Ceiling Debacle | Radfem Hub - March 27, 2012

[...] to the Transgender community, and Transgender women. I am sure you have heard of it – the “Cotton Ceiling,” a term porn actress Drew DeVeaux and other Transgender women use to “challenge lesbians’ [...]

112. WrathOfTiamat - March 28, 2012

Someone said these guys were delusional and crazy… I say LOL, they are 100% aware of what they’re doing. Like FCM said, it can be no casualty that huge amounts of time, resources and money are spent on defending gender and erasing the FACT of female biology. Everyone who knows me knows I’m a conspiracy theorist, and believe that the terrorist patriarchal world order we’re under is no casualty and has never been, but honestly, this is too much; there must be people -male people- working 24/7 in order to get things done. The patriarchs in the elites who control everything are very intelligent, more than regular non-awakened women, but when a woman awakens they can’t do anything to bring us back to ignorance and compliance. By the way I watched the video of the trans creep and it’s horrifying – just imagine that this idea of making ”gender”-neutral toilets is brought to terms and we end up having to go to pee with males… we’d be in constant panic to get raped and we would sure as hell get bullied all the time – well AND raped.

These people who speak through the media just do it for the money and the recognition -the more misogynistic the more of a genius you are- and so they do what the system tells them to do. Dworkin wrote in Our Blood that she was being offered insane amounts of money to write anti-woman articles about the hippie subculture and women’s ”liberating addictions to painkillers” or whatever, she asked the editors of the magazine if she could actually ask the women why they took the meds and they told her that the articles would say how fun it was and to shut the fuck up. She was poor but refused the offers – if there were more people like that who refused to sell out, the P couldn’t spread its misogynist propaganda so easily. But unfortunately, people are sellouts. It’s depressing to realize that you live in a world cult and most people are full of shit because of this -sorry I’m young and new to radfem theory and I’m still in post-awakening shock.

Maybe I’m wrong and something needs to be done about these ”loonies”, but I think we shouldn’t waste time and/or energy in trans or MRAs; they’re men, for Goddess’ sake. I believe our greatest power lies in a passive force: withdrawal of energy from men and the system. Get a woman-centred life, try and spread the word of the Goddess to other women, create sisterhood and a woman-centred culture and move on. The fun-fem/MRA/trans backlash is designed in order to make us lose our time, it’s the same-old male vampirism now disguised in effeminate ugly weirdos saying they’re women -and want to fuck us, LOL-. Stop it. There’s no use in it because I seriously believe that these people do know, just like we know, that we are right and they’re wrong. They’re just doing it in order to fulfil a patriarchal agenda, for the benefits and for the sake of it -the entitlement. Btw sorry for the bad English.

113. Olly Oxinfree - March 28, 2012

Lots o words, time, attention, energy. None of it deserved. All of it trolled by the transmen. And richly mined, eh?

Comes down to something much simpler for me:

“No, I don’t want to fuck you. I don’t owe you an explanation. Get lost.”

114. Mary Sunshine - March 28, 2012

Wrath of Tiamat, and Olly, you both talk a lot of sense. :-) Thank you.

Meg Cowie - March 28, 2012

“No, I don’t want to fuck you. I don’t owe you an explanation. Get lost.” Absolutely.

115. Trans-ed Parenthood « scum-o-rama! - April 6, 2012

[...] more here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, and here. Like this:LikeBe the first to like this post. from → [...]

116. Thomas Kando: Sexism (Pt. 1) « lolliguncula - April 9, 2012

[...] Three MtTs were married, one husband didn’t know. Several of the unmarried had also slept with men (including as prostitutes) who weren’t able to see a difference between an artificial and real vulva. Kando remarks that this was “the ultimate test of womanhood” (p. 6). Being fucked as a “woman” means being a woman. Apparently, other people are often unwitting instruments to MtTs attempts at self-validation. Quite interestingly this emphasis on sexual behaviour seems to have found its way into the queer community by way of MtTs creating a “cotton ceiling”. [...]

117. Scum-o-rama (TRANSPHOBIA!) « Radfem-ological Images - April 23, 2012

[...] the graphic illustrates the feminist problem presented by the so-called “Cotton Ceiling” issue, whereby male-to-female transgender persons feel that lesbian women’s [...]

118. anastaziasurvivor - April 24, 2012

Sexual attraction is one of the last bastions of no-bullshit zones.
Transwomen can bullshit themselves that they’re female, and political correctness dictates that I have to let them bullshit me that they’re female.

But I’m attracted to whom I’m attracted. Females. Suddenly I become trans-phobic for pointing out the obvious – “Um … dude, you have a dick.”
I consider it extortion to accuse me of bigotry, just because I don’t want to have sex with them.

They can bullshit themselves as much as they want to. But my body knows that they’re not female. Game over.
Wishing for something doesn’t necessarily make it so. Watch: I identify as a incredibly tall and athletic person. Where’s my WNBA contract?

119. On Bullying, and Being Nice « You think I just don't understand, but I don't believe you. - May 4, 2012

[...] because of the backlash such act will earn them. It’s wrong that lesbians have to justify why we don’t want to engage sexually with dick (or former dick) holders. It’s wrong that females cannot establish a sex-segregated boundary without having to explain ad [...]

120. Cammy - May 5, 2012

I think it’s ironic seeing discussions about trans women and stealth, like it’s such a badge of pride they were able to fool their partners and the people around them. Sexual preference does not make one a bigot. Besides, why would any trans person want to have sex with someone they do not feel they can be honest with? Oh, I know – they fear the very real possibility of being rejected, but at the same time lying just creates more problems. if they’ve had SRS, then they’re omitting a large part of their past which includes their experiences as their birth sex.
IMO, the whole trans thing would be akin to me saying I’m black, a ‘wigger.’
I wasn’t born black, so I don’t know what it really means to be black.
Granted, there are a few people who were born with chromosome disorders but they are considered intersexed or hermaphroditic, not transsexual…in any case it is not the norm, and I certainly wouldn’t wish for such a thing (and the problems that come with it) to be the norm.

121. bugbrennan - May 17, 2012
122. T - May 18, 2012

Let the damn trannies call you “transphobic!” When they do, you know what you say?

You say, “that’s right, I am”. End of bullshit.

123. Smucker’s « Radfem-ological Images - May 18, 2012

[...] beta-male will fight tooth and nail for this one.  Sound familiar?  It should.  It’s the Cotton Ceiling, in a nutshell. Share this:Like this:LikeBe the first to like this [...]

FCM - May 18, 2012

it would end the conversation i guess, but its letting them frame the issues, which is exactly what they want. perhaps its a matter of choosing battles, and letting them have that one?


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