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Moron NTE December 15, 2014

Posted by FCM in liberal dickwads, news you can use, radical concepts.
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before i close up shop here again, which i will shortly, i wanted to address NTE/NTHE a bit further as it is still in the forefront of my mind.  as i said before, it was a comment on a radfem blog that first alerted me to this — before that, i had never seen it addressed anywhere.  i had, however, taken note of a dozen or more vague, cryptic, and seemingly off the cuff remarks left on various blogs over the years (years!) and that these comments were left by trusted commenters who obviously did not want to address it further.  there was a time afterall when excellent discussions were happening all over the radfem internets, so wouldnt it have made sense to drop an actual link or something, something to spin and spiral from, so that we could all learn about it together?

clearly not.  knowing what i know now about the radfem internets, i can see that this and many subjects are simply off limits, and considered going too far, even amongst ourselves.  ask me how i know!  to be a radical feminist who rejects reformism — and sees no or little hope for men, in other words — is to live with one foot solidly within “feminism” (understanding how this all works) and knowing also how pointless it all is (because there is no hope for men), with the other foot in “feminisms” grave.  knowing that men will destroy the entire planet, and that they simply will not stop destroying everything no matter what, is kind of the logical outcome of “nutty” or non-reformist radical feminism in fact, if taken to its logical endpoint.  isnt it?

obviously, i think it is, and that it is from that place of understanding that one must speak of NTE/NTHE (near term extinction/near term human extinction) and this is where i speak from now.  to their credit, NTE “activists” arent really activating for/toward anything, believing that it has been too late to DO SOMETHING for decades now — this is the foundation of their belief system in fact, that self-reinforcing feedback loops have been set in motion and cannot be stopped, and that the changes happening now are not linear but exponential.

to their discredit, from what i can tell, the majority of NTE “activism” consists of talking with other believers about how not to kill yourselves out of despair in the years leading up to it, and the solution, apparently, is to “do what you love to do!” while waiting, then kill yourself at the last minute before it gets really bad.  also known as resource hoarding and hedonism, and then avoiding any direct consequences to yourself by whatever means necessary.  just like men have always done.  exactly what has created the problem of runaway global climate change (and NTE) in fact, considering what men “love to do” which is almost without exception fucking women, and (thereby) making babies.  almost 8 billion of them/us now.  the largely unwanted and/or ambivalent progeny of the largely unwanted and/or ambivalent 2.5 billion that successfully (albeit prospectively) choked the life out of the living world decades ago.

“JUST KEEP FUCKING!” may as well be made into a bumper sticker at this point, it is as ironic/tragic as it is universally applicable and lets not forget misogynistic and necrophilic, but yay male orgasms so whatever right?  god, literally everyone would be on board with that one wouldnt they?  (BTW DGR/deep green resistance is pro-sex, they say this constantly.  google it!  yawn.  and by pro-sex, they mean pro-PIV, or at the very least they are not anti-PIV, or even PIV-critical.  because lets not prudish guyz boners yall!  prudish isnt radikewl and we are radikewl so lets cant prudish nope nope!).

anyway, this is the conversation that is happening around NTE and as far as i can tell, it is the only one — this dick-jerking fantasy, (and pro-PIV jibberish) where good liberal and progressive males legitimize and even manage to progressive-ize resource hoarding (and MOAR intercourse and baby making) with no consequences to themselves.  somehow they have done this.

and i am utterly unsurprised at this point that there has been little to no public radical feminist conversation about NTE, and that so far, the only “radfem” treatment of global climate change has been limited to discussing veganism (and shitting on women who eat meat) and supporting PIV-positive, manarchist environmental/anti-civilization organizations like DGR.  we see how even men who “get” it are responding to this, which is to say they are responding to it as they respond to everything.  which is the entire problem BTW.  radfems know this.

i do accept and anticipate that there are radfem and nutty radfem conversations happening in private about NTE of course.  my point really is that radical feminism, and its PUBLIC face, the PUBLIC face of our movement, is not the endpoint of radical thinking, and (therefore) does not address in any adequate way the very serious situation(s) in which we find ourselves.  these conversations, actions, and inactions happen elsewhere.  it took me a long time to figure this out, so here.  let me be your shortcut.  do not waste months and years of your life the way i did.  anyone else who has something to add, with the sincerest hope that it will save another woman some time, energy, and/or sanity…please discuss in the comments below.


1. tnt666 - December 15, 2014

I’m only for PIV if procreation is excluded. I had my tubes cauterised at age 30. DGR are based on radfem positions, so PIV is also limited to the pleasure part IMO.
We need to envision an Earth with less than 0.2 billion people. The way to achieve it is by subsidising non-procreation instead of subsidising procreation. That means pills and condoms free, abortions free and easily accessible at all ages, sterilisations free, speaking against reproduction in schools, in free schools.
This will be the ultimate liberation of females, when we can just “be” simple humans, instead of being “super women”, living up to both of patriarchy’s male and female gender roles.
Anti-natalism existed in the feminist movement for a very short time, then the patriarchal backlash convinced feminists that babies were real cool and that liberal feminism would super moms, who had two full time jobs, while hiring cheap poor females to fill in the gaps they had no time for.
Yes, free day care is “sweet”, but it also encourages procreation, encourages both sexes to dump their parental obligations onto the state.
I’m not at all comfortable with that trend.

FCM - December 15, 2014

sorry, but there simply is no separating reproduction/pregnancy from PIV. as there has never been a birth control method that is 100% effective, this is bullshit liberal gaslighting, and deliberate OTHERING and pathologizing of female bodies and the way they (correctly) work. also, it is simply not RADICAL for radical males to open the door to state and other patriarchal control of women via impregnating them, and that includes pregnancies that end in abortion.

2. cherryblossomlife - December 15, 2014

“let’s not prudish guy’s boners”, “let’s can’t prudish”

What an absolute win, FCM! Haha!
That’s the second smile you’ve had out of me in less than a couple of weeks.
God, that prude/ conservative slur, where men are deliberately obtuse, has been irritating me more than I realized.
Fabulous takedown.

FCM - December 15, 2014

haha! pro-PIV jibberish is funny. 😀

FCM - December 15, 2014

or at least…pro-PIV jibberish is jibberish.

3. irateiris - December 15, 2014

I don’t think humans will go extinct, but our numbers will dwindle due to resource depletion and natural disasters caused by climate change. In the process, we’ll go through hell as civilization crashes. My sincerest hope is that men won’t rampage and harm women worse than they already do while the world goes to hell.

FCM - December 15, 2014

from what i can tell, it is possible that both things will happen. there might be a period where its just really really bad, but the icing on the cake will be when the grid finally fails and the 400+ nuclear reactors around the world melt down and pollute the world with radiation. if this really happens in the next 15 years though, i guess the idea is that it will be relatively sudden and catastrophic, represented by a line going straight up on all the models (including the global population model which i linked to in the post). there is EVIDENCE that this will happen, which is not the same as proof, but i would think as feminists we would be sick and damn tired of being gaslighted over the issue of evidence versus proof by now. when i think of the future, i think in terms of the next 10-15-20 years. there is EVIDENCE that this is the wise thing to do.

FCM - December 15, 2014

its also possible that it is, in fact, “really bad” now. the only reason it doesnt feel like it, IF it doesnt feel like it, is that we have been experiencing a frog-in-boiling water effect, and are slightly insulated from the full brunt of it by first world conveniences (which are only making things worse BTW). lately though, it does seem like its really, really bad. taking radfem to its logical conclusion is like waking up from a horrible nightmare only to realize that the reality is even worse. the nightmare is the realization that patriarchy even exists and the extent of its effect on people (meaning women), and the reality is the fact that the entire world — not just “culture” or patriarchy — is toxic now because of men and male values (how could it not be?) and (AND!) that its probably too late to do anything about it.

4. cherryblossomlife - December 15, 2014

WW is right that men keep info from women but noe and again they can’t help themselves and some of it gets leaked in our direction.

Today at the school gates, I ended up chatting to an American-Japanese guy who had recently moved to the area with his Taiwanese wife. He just came out and told me that he used to work as a translator for the government in Tokyo, but when the Fukushima incident happened, he was that horrified by the info he was having to translate about it that he fled to the US with his family. They stayed 2 years. Now they’re back in Japan because it didn’t work out for them in the US, but they’re in the South, where the westerly winds take the radiTion away from the town and in a northerly direction.

Men are usually dismissive of environment concerns ( unless they’re making money out of it, or gaining popularity in other ways) . Worrying about environmental destruction is regarded as unmasculine (ha!) and neurotic.
But with this government guy, the phrase “canary in the coalmines” sprang to mind.

I loved your analogy about the fact that knowing we live in a patriarchy is the same as waking up from a nightmare only to realise that real life is worse. Depression, for example, is STILL being blamed on genetics or ” lack of certain chemicals in the brain” !!! As a feminist, you can see men’s theft of resources and exploitation of women ( and children) and their violence all around you, and then with a straight face doctors say, “Depression is genetic”.

FCM - December 15, 2014

that is good to know cherry! translators and other administrative support are in a weird position of trust arent they. its kind of surprising that this guy would even talk, they have probably threatened him with imprisonment or even execution for treason if he leaked secrets, but he is doing it willy nilly anyway? what does this tell you about his view of the future for example? thats really interesting, considering what he probably knows.

also, about the nightmare, i meant that radical feminism is the nightmare you live in once you have realized that patriarchy exists and how extreme it is, but it also acts as a sedative/lobotomy because of the hope for men it requires…then taking radfem to its logical ends, which most radfems never do, is like waking up from the nightmare and realizing its even worse than you thought. that its not just about the “culture” and the stories we tell ourselves and the way we behave but the entire physical world. it has all been polluted and ruined by men and maleness. of course it has! how could it not? all of this is depressing, but it also explains a lot doesnt it, and we realize we arent crazy for feeling that things are so terribly wrong, and the vastness of the feelings makes even more sense because the feeling is so huge that including the entire planet in our analysis really is exactly proportional to it. it fits. really, it only makes more sense the more you think about it. and yes, it is interesting, and alarming, that they can treat this “feeling” that the entire planet is polluted and ruined and wrong, which it is, with drugs. jesus.

5. cherryblossomlife - December 15, 2014

Yes, women are incredibly sensitive anyway. They can feel a bad atmosphere when they walk in a room. Clearly this is a learned survival strategy. Women know when to shut up, when to listen ( or feign listening), how to stand to attention, how to make themselves invisible… Lots of skills that men don’t have. Well, what if women had a good knack not just for gauging the atmosphere of a room, but also the atmosphere on the street, and the state of the world, just by paying attention to the scraps of knowledge that come our way. A feeling, or knowing that isn’t articulated because of the gaslighting.
It’s a sign of female humanity, that’s for sure. In spite of their efforts to turn us into fembots, we suffer still.

endlessleeper - December 15, 2014

“just by paying attention to the scraps of knowledge that come our way.”
damn, that’s a great line. i really do believe women hold innate knowledge and intuition about the world (about anything and everything, really) and that if we had proper room to gather and discuss we would come up with (or realize) some incredible things.

6. Sargasso Sea - December 15, 2014

I can’t stop thinking about the first comment.

Somehow if women are ‘allowed’ to not have children (or just abort them for free yanno) we will have achieved liberation? It’s ridiculous.

There are and have been untold numbers of women who have managed to not have children and they certainly aren’t any more Liberated than any of the rest of us. Radikewl indeed.

7. Alexis Flamethrower Daimon - December 15, 2014

Oh yeah, NTHE’s don’t like it if women talk about the reason for this mess: men and their rapism. I got booted recently from a NTE themed fb group because I came right out and said it.
what they want to talk about is how they feeeeeeel about it and about as you said, hoarding and hedonism.
I still have hope for some women to band together and hide it out somewhere, hoping that there are some good years to be had. And by good I mean, free from patriarchy. Obvsl. the desctruction and radiation will affect (already affects) all parts of the planet.
But initiatives like these still give me joy, and I am planning on starting a red tent in my area next year:

8. Alexis Flamethrower Daimon - December 15, 2014

And another thing I have noticed is that i’m losing my fear of patriarchal repercussions the more certain I am of its unravelling: i speak to women openly, I use every chance i get to speak to young girls openly and to do what brings me joy – which is totally different form what brings men joy: it’s following my intuitions, being in nature, drumming, giving what i am good at to women.

9. Alexis Flamethrower Daimon - December 15, 2014

Part of the truth telling is affirming ny woman friends’right to be depressed and stressing that WE ARE RIGHT to be depressed and angry, because we live in a fucking nightmare.

FCM - December 15, 2014

username “TNT666” has been spammed after “she” came back and told me i was “behind the times” if i didnt KNOW that PIV has been separated from pregnancy for decades. lol i just do not think this is anything a woman would say. our bodies tell us differently all the fucking time. there are no 100% effective contraceptives, and this includes “sterilization” for males and females. you also have to place your life and trust in a male (or patriarchal woman) to even perform the procedure, to trust he did it correctly and competently (which is gaslighting) and to further trust that he only disabled you the exact right amount to give you the outcome you expected and not a little (or a lot) more either on accident or on purpose just for kicks. this is fucking bullshit, and it is not radical at all for “radical” males to subject women to state, religious, medical or other patriarchal controls via intercourse. and it is also not radical to subject women to state control via incarceration and prosecution by participating in “actions” for that matter, this is complete gaslighting bullshit and more of males placing females in harms way. ssdd.

FCM - December 15, 2014

yes, it does seem a bit silly to hold our tongues at this point (although not completely absurd for obvious reasons, meaning that men would love to rape and torture us for as many days as we have left). as you can all probably tell, i am pretty pissed off that i wasted so much time and energy figuring out that 99% of so-called radical feminism is lying to ourselves and other women about men, and what they are, and whether they are likely to ever stop. they arent.

i would also mention that pretty recently, DGR’s derrek jensen wrote about the unsustainability of transgender, and how something that requires surgery, hormones and other interventions is not good for the environment. one could certainly say the same thing about ALL manners of contraception, couldnt one, and yet DGR remains “pro-sex.” the fucking hypocrisy. i wonder what the carbon footprint is of a modern surgical suite ffs, for one procedure on one woman (or man) to sterilize them. you fucking, fucking (literally, fucking) idiots. you fucking morons. ugh.

FCM - December 15, 2014

also, about the NTE’s “feels” (haha) guy mcpherson has been criticized for callously dropping his nerdy science bombs on his audiences and then leaving without “processing” it with them first. LOLOLOLOL oh how i laughed when i read that! really his lawyers (or the venues’ lawyers) probably told him that he needed to process these things with the audience before he left and make sure they knew HE wasnt telling them to kill themselves, NOW, so they wont all be sued when someone does it. but yes, the FEEEELS about it all. now that its all said and done, the FEELS. ironically, mcphersons call to hedonism and “do what you love!” for the next 15 years implicitly includes genderfeels, and who cares about sustainability anymore either, its all totes passe.

10. Sargasso Sea - December 15, 2014

Well, you know, when men are getting away with calling themselves radical feminists and women are taking it seriously the jig is up.

FCM - December 15, 2014

“nerdy science bombs” = a slew of climate change models that all look like this……|

LOL get it? a straight vertical line means “exponentially worse” or sudden and catastrophic change. its the earth handing you your hat. you are excused. bai.

11. Alexis Flamethrower Daimon - December 15, 2014

I have witnessed a lot of threads on fb recently in which radfems bring up the fact that men are parasitic mutants and then other women immediately shout them down with NAMALT, or “indigenous men are different” or some such bullshit. And Dworkin is often brought up as an example of a radical feminist who didn’t believe that men are inherently evil…it reminds me of what you have said somewhere, that women like Dworkin didn’t and couldn’t go to the end of their thoughts because survival.
And the reason they give for bringing Dworkin up is “because she believed that we might as well give up if we believe men are naturally rapists.” Well yes, we can give up “reforming” men or society. That’s the fucking point. But women are severely brainwashed and need to believe that men can be resocialized in order to continue their lives. I get it. But it’s infuriating. The loyalty women have for men, even “radical feminists.” This is the nightmare you talked about. When I first awakened, I felt better, because I realized what had happened to me was not my fault. But then, the more I understood, the more I relaized that we live in dystopia and that there is no way out. Not in any foreground sense, anyway.But the acceptance of this fact does open up new ways of thinking and being. And even doing. I’d rather be awake and sad and furious then asleep. Because I’d be wasting my time on “conference femininism” or activism or talking to men and trying to reform patriarchal institutions.

FCM - December 15, 2014

andrea dworkin gave up on living in the last years of her life, after she was raped by 2 male hotel staff at a hotel she was staying at while traveling abroad. she said she was ready to die now, because even in middle age, she could not sit in the public garden of a hotel and enjoy a drink without being drugged and raped by men.


FCM - December 15, 2014

so, not only could she not go to the ends of her thoughts during her career (or she couldnt do this publically) it seems as if she had changed her mind, or gotten less optimistic by the end. at least, one might be forgiven for reading that into it when she said she did not want to live anymore when this is what men do.

12. Alexis Flamethrower Daimon - December 15, 2014

I had no idea. I grieve for the woman. It happened to me once too. Drug rape. It makes you feel as if you have lost your mind. Men are monsters.

FCM - December 15, 2014

i didnt know either, and i have never seen that link dropped anywhere. is i recall, i had to find it myself. you can drop it on fb or anywhere you see people bringing up dworkin and using her his way. i think they are wrong.

FCM - December 15, 2014

this is exactly what i am talking about. how many years was i a feminist, how many links did i see dropped to dworkin and her work, how many times did i see her portrayed in a certain light, but people werent telling the truth? obviously the misogynists lie about dworkin, and the fun fems too, but radicals lie too dont they. at least, it seems like a pretty obvious lie, or at least a lie by omission and not giving a shit, to use dworkin as an example of a woman who never gave up on men, or to say she would encourage women to do reformist work forever. that does not seem to be the case at all. but that is something i had to figure out on my own.

13. Alexis Flamethrower Daimon - December 15, 2014

Yeah shortcuts..the thing is that women who are not “In the right place” for hearing the truth about men, will not hear it. Instead, they will become defensive and will focus on the mean women who say mean things about men.
WHich brings me back to the red tent idea. I believe that women first have to heal to a certain degree before they can face hard truths about the world. As long as we are barely hanging on, trying to survive (mentally, emotionally) we can’t face it. But if women have the space to be heard and follow our thoughts then truths that we have buried deep inside (that men are walking penises, for example) will float to the top of consciousness on their own. I think it has to do with women being so removed form our authentic selves and so identifying so much with men that any attack on men feels like an attack on the women themselves, because they have no access to their true Selves and mistake the male in their heads for their own Selves. But once women actually feel themselves again, and discover our true Selves, that male-identification lessens, and thus the ability to hear and face truths increases. Does that make sense?
Maybe an indirect approach is called for, because women are so severely traumatized.

14. Alexis Flamethrower Daimon - December 15, 2014

oh goddess, It’s happening right now over on facebutt! “But then what’s the point of feminism?” This is so thought stopping! “We can’t think men are biologically rapists because then how should we go on?” Seriously. It’s denial.

FCM - December 15, 2014

the POINT of feminism is female liberation from men, which i now believe is a shorthand for female survival. i do not know what else it could mean, considering that the context in which we are doing this is global annihilation/necrophilia and global femicide at the hands of men. how can we expect to survive if we dont accept the truth no matter what it is? that seems like step #1. they obviously think the POINT is something other than female liberation, or female survival. i have even seen radical feminism defined as “getting to the root of womens oppression by men SO WE CAN REFORM IT.” i think that was in a CNN article. LOL mainstream reporting fail. but it makes you think, yes, that is where many alleged radfems are coming from isnt it?

FCM - December 15, 2014

also, i hate to say it, but not all women will survive. can we take some kind of responsibility for our own survival without diverting the conversation into victim blaming (and then accuse women of doing this to ourselves)? i think some of us will be able to do this, and some of us wont. this is always the way it works in disaster situations, some live and some die. luck plays a part, as well as preparation/foresight, and oh yeah, you pretty much have to be AWAKE. thats a given. interestingly, if we want to further explore the natural disaster model, there are many people who dont evacuate in natural disasters because they simply have nowhere to go. thats fine, and it certainly doesnt seal your fate either way, it just means you will have to take it as it comes, wherever you are. like we all do. im just putting that out there in the “natural disaster” vein. there is a lot there i find helpful.

15. Sargasso Sea - December 15, 2014

Having a teenage daughter, it can be tough to talk with her about the fact that there is no way to ‘fix’ any of this shit but I still do and I’m very straight forward about it.

The point is that this is the way it is now (which IS pretty fucking bad even for those of us with some money and other resources) and it’s only going to get worse so she really has to be AWARE OF IT and educate herself as much as possible re survival ‘techniques’. And by techniques I mean anything from simply thinking about possible/probable scenarios and playing those through in her head to learning about foraging, etc.

I’m still of the mind though that it won’t get super, super bad for another 75+/- years barring a ‘for real’ natural disaster – EMP, asteroid strike – that takes out the grid on at least a hemispheric scale.

Keep in mind that print books are your friends.

16. WordWoman - December 16, 2014

@FCM “nerdy science bombs” = a slew of climate change models that all look like this……|

This series of videos is worth watching to understand exponential growth. These videos are exponential growth applied to population. Here’s the first one:

It’s not only climate change but also about any other thing as it spins out of control. So all these models will reach …| except that they interact. Plus, if you don’t have enough of a species it will die off. It’s not like you can save pairs of animals in a zoo and repopulate various ecosystems.

FCM - December 16, 2014

omg! i love this guy. and i LOVE the maths. excellent. here is the full length video, 1 hr 15 min.

also, look at the males in the room compared to the females. just, wow. men are obviously the walking dead.

17. WordWoman - December 16, 2014

Yes, I noticed the males compared to the females. Thanks for posting the full length video. I watched it again and much easier to follow that way. Also, the chart is interesting. I noticed that the first item on the right side is abstinence. In other words, a mathematical argument for no more PIV 😀

FCM - December 16, 2014

yes! i noticed abstinence was on the list as well. as he said, we can pick a couple from the list we want to implement, or nature will pick for us. it was really funny for me to watch that bc i had never seen it before, and yet i saw him say some of the things we have been saying the whole time, and some things i literally just said the other day, about ways to see into the future for example. he wanted to see what boulder would look like in 70 years, so he figured out its rate of “growth” and figured out how many years in the future he wanted to go, and saw that LA had that same population now. to see into boulders future, he looks at LA now. just the other day i suggested that in order to see our future, we needed to look at old women. this is logical, rational thinking and it all ends up in the same places, which is one reason i like it. its not a matter of opinion and its really not open to debate. really its simple math. ❤ thanks for the link, i really enjoyed watching that.

18. WordWoman - December 16, 2014

A good read is “Flight Behavior” by Barbara Kingsolver for understanding populations that are under stress and how complex it is. Plus it describes what happens below critical mass, when a species really cannot recover even if a few members are left. It is a novel about extinction of species and scientifically researched since she has a biology degree. She’s an excellent writer who often writes about species/the environment in her novels. There’s a feminist aspect to most of her books, but always the NAMALT stuff is there. I read for the other stuff, obviously.

Based on this kind of info, math, science, NTE, etc, it seems to me the goal is to have enough free women survive. How to do that is another question, but it seems to me a part of it is clearly understanding ones local conditions, including dangers and ways to survive. Lots of lost or nearly lost skills need to be gotten in order to do that. And that’s just a start. Next, being really flexible since we don’t know how things will unfold exactly. We need to invent.

Will everything be a desert? Be flooded? Storms, too extreme both hot and cold. And that’s just a start. What species will be lost because other species are needed to sustain them?

When we focus on women and women’s survival that is key. I have pretty much concluded that we are doomed and have felt this for quite some time, but I’d rather do the best I can to survive and help other women do that. Most of this won’t happen online, but rather in face-to-face local contact. I see the online world as something like a mirage, it can be gone in a flash. Along with the grid. For now, a good place to get information about practical skills especially. But as S4 says, print books are your friend 🙂

19. WordWoman - December 16, 2014

Another approach is complexity theory (or chaos theory). This got co-opted and I don’t like many of the ways it got popularized, but I’ll try to think if there’s a good source I know of. The popularizations generally weakened it and made it seem less scientific. But it is something we need to understand to handle what is to come. For one thing, there is the idea of a phase shift, that is an unexpected change that could not be foreseen based on the past. When this happens, how do we regroup? I think this has been popularized to support the idea of a rescue from what is happening, which is just another “rescuer” meme to keep unfounded hope alive. Like a knight in shining armor or a father in heaven who will rescue us. Like this phase shift will put things right or be favorable.

The other thought that just hit me (like a blow to the gut, actually) is that women who deny the utter damage that men have done, NAMHDT* often also will likely have an unfounded faith that it will all work out. This is of course, part of the propaganda he mentions in the math video where various “experts” make claims that are unfounded. So this is the source of the optimism. These women claim that they are optimistic and this is healthy and anyone who says otherwise is being a pessimist or even worse. Arguing this with women is just as futile as arguing that PIV is not good for women. I’ve done both and it’s the same in many ways. (beyond frustrating)

*”not all men have done this” or NAMHDT or even “women have done this equally with men: WHDTEWM.

Please understand, I’m not blaming these women (frustrating though they may be) but rather describing something we need to think about for women to survive what is to come, if that’s even possible. Surviving against all odds is what I’ll call it. Not like believing against all odds.

20. WordWoman - December 16, 2014

S4, I think telling your daughter about this is so important. It is what she needs to know to have any hope of survival, imo.

21. bronte71 - December 16, 2014

Re: “Knowing what I know about the radfem internets, I can see that this and many subjects are simply off limits, and considered too far, even amongst ourselves.”

Hello. I’m the ‘nut’ that introduced the NTHE/NTE subject on another blog a few months ago. You can’t imagine how I hated delurking to do it; partly for the reason you stated here: going too far and off-limits subject. Partly also because I expected massive denial: even from the women I consider the most awake and aware in the world.
Therefore, I thank you, Witchwind and others that the denial didn’t happen.

Personally, I came to acceptance of NTHE some years ago. It was just too logical and inevitable a conclusion to patriarchy, men’s Terminator violence and insanity or “incontinence” as one of my favourite first-wave feminists once wrote.
Whether the mass extinction event – via severe climate disruption- comes about in 30, 50, 100 or 150 years irrelevant because I see the more immediate danger to women as the collapse of industrial civilization and everything that goes with it: food, water, personal safety and daily survival issues. Those things should never be a taboo subject because they are not academic.

Alexis: You wrote that you’ve been booted off NTE sites because you told it like it is about men. I’ve had to stop myself many times from commenting – with dripping sulfuric acid words- on Nature Bats Last because I know my fate would be the same.
I find it funny (not) that only now, with extinction looming, do the men on NTE sites include women as full human beings. That is, they demand that women share equal responsibility for the destruction of the planet when the full responsibility is male. Every once in a while I’ll read a comment with the word “patriarchy” embedded within it….and then the men all run away. Taboo until the end.

Much love to you all.

FCM - December 16, 2014

hi bronte. 🙂 i am glad to see you here. i will be closing comments here if people are done discussing, so i hope if anyone has anything else they want to say, that they will say it. and that includes you, bronte, if you have anything else you would like to add to this NTE stuff, or to anything. i really cant thank you enough for your initial comment, as i do think this is what radfem discourse has been missing this whole time. the final piece of the puzzle. not that i think anyone needs to come forward if they dont want to, or if they feel strongly against it, but you seem say you had hope (hopping hope?) that the right people would read it, and that they would fully consider it. well, i can say that i certainly have, and it has been a game changer for me. seriously, everything makes a lot more sense than it did before, and that includes my previous misunderstanding about womens reasons for rejecting feminism, globally, en masse. i think women know its too late too and that there is no hope for men. conservative women obviously know that men will never, ever stop. and NTE is the logical endpoint. oh yes it is.

FCM - December 16, 2014

and i personally would find it hilarious and interesting to see a real comment on NTE, or even an article addressing patriarchy and mens role in this (especially in overpopulation but not only that) submitted to nature bats last, and to see the response to it by those who think they are the most rational, accepting people on the planet, those who do not shrink from harsh truths. lol. but i also know it would not be worth it for any woman to do it, because we already know what would happen, and that it would deplete the woman to make a pointless point. i am still, to this day, just stunned at the hypocrisy. it is so obvious. it is just so, so obvious. isnt it?

22. endlessleeper - December 16, 2014

i don’t know if this is a bit tangential, but as a disabled woman who has no choice but to rely on the medical industry i really appreciate all your insights. watching global warming take its toll reminds me a lot of how my own body works–being neglected and often downright abused by men in power means it “works” but in a steeply reduced way. my doctors and surgeons refuse to help me find alternative treatments and while they’ve never told me this directly they’re just waiting for my illness to completely reduce function in my joints so they can replace them and call it a day (i need to have two knee replacements stat but none of my doctors care about the mental and physical toll or about me finding a new surgical procedure that will be way less taxing, of course). everything in patriarchy is so connected: academics rely on “science” i.e human and animal experimentation which is how we get all our medical knowledge which is why you “need” religion to counteract the hate and focused neglect being spewed at you. the medical industry is insanely, massively wasteful, incredibly, brutally violent, and downright idiotic (because it’s largely run by pharmaceutical and medical supply companies, and better, plentiful, cheap future technologies and treatments means people will be able to prevent illness, heal themselves, and treat themselves; which also means they lose billions and will eventually go out of business). NTE guys are all about taking “heavily disabled” people, i.e people who were in (probably male-caused) traumatic accidents off life support and denying them healthcare but being a useless abled sack of shit man who relies on women to do basic things for him is totally fine. i guess my point is men genuinely enjoy destroying the world and making all women suffer. to be disabled means you literally have no other option but relying on “medicine” and bureaucracy and men ADORE this because they get to keep saying it’s for your own good. every patient is a continuing human experiment, but this never improves anything. men just like confirming over and over that they really are hurting and disabling already hurt women.
i’m really sorry if this was nonsensical and unrelated, but your comment about being gaslit by surgeons hit me super, super close to home. i felt perhaps a spiel was in order (feel free to delete this comment if it’s too rambling, though). i thank all of you for your insight. nobody has ever believed me when i said these things.

FCM - December 16, 2014

no, its not tangential at all. i agree that most of the patriarchal medical machine is about torturing and gaslighting women. the only people it is set up to help is males, and that includes male fetuses and babies who are very sickly and frail compared to females. i think that in the absence of male-caused trauma, including repeated and unwanted pregnancies and other fallout from PIV like constant bladder infections that women would not need medicine or even more traditional “healing” very much at all, if ever, in order to survive and thrive. it is such a con and yet another subsidy on “humanity” to allow males to survive when they should actually die.

if you are having trouble with your joints, have you tried eating paleo/grain free? i just saw the wheatbelly video on PBS the other night, where the cardiologist who started wheatbelly explains how it all started. he was trying to get his cardiac patients blood sugar down because high blood sugar causes heart disease (i think, i wasnt paying attention at that point) and he tried to figure out what would be the easiest thing to tell them to do, so he looked at the standard american diet and where the blood-sugar raising stuff was and he saw that people were eating bread (wheat) at almost every meal. remove the bread (wheat) and that will be the easiest and most drastic change most americans could make that would bring their blood sugar down. (he now advocates totally grain free but it started with wheat). his patients started coming back for their follow up appointments with drastically changed health, including reduced and eliminated join pain. wheat has also been implicated in inflammatory and immunity related conditions like crohns disease and rhumatoid arthritis. it is just a suggestion and works for many people whereas the really nasty drugs often dont work completely and/or make things worse, and surgeries are dangerous and expensive. AFAIK there are no known side effects to going wheat free either, (assuming you arent trying to get pregnant, as i think in that case would require a folic acid supplement) so its a possible solution that literally cant hurt to try, if you havent already. i am really sorry you are having to deal with male medicine this intensely and over a long period of time. it is absolute torture.

FCM - December 16, 2014

also, there is an anti-monsanto video out there somewhere that says that research on GMO foods shows an inflammatory/immune response to GMO foods, in that case it was GMO potatoes fed to mice or rats. their bodies responded to the genetically modified frankenfoods as if they were a foreign substance with increased inflammation. i thought that was really interesting, considering that there are so many inflammatory and immunity related illnesses out there right now with no effective treatments, let alone cures and some of these appear to be increasing over time for no known reason. there is in fact no known cause for many inflammatory/immune related conditions, they just appear out of nowhere for no reason. (!) since we all know that there are in fact plenty of “reasons” for poor health, all caused by males and their disgusting necrophilia and greed, i think the GMO frankenfood connection needs to be seriously considered. the “treatment” would be to stop eating them and to replace them with other food which is not easy at all, but at least (again) there are no known side effects and can be done without a doctors supervision (or blessing).

endlessleeper - December 16, 2014

thank you for the lovely response! i actually don’t really eat grains or wheat very much but i was vegan for a few months which definitely lowered my swelling (not eating dairy, which i was allergic to as a child and am still sensitive to, slowed my disease progression and i’m thinking of returning to a mostly vegan diet again. i have rheumatoid arthritis and it is highly sensitive to weather changes, which my doctors laughed at my mother for suggesting. now it’s common knowledge, of course). i also hold an amethyst to my sorest joints before i sleep every night and the pain reduction is INCREDIBLE. i had huge problems with my left elbow, thought the amethyst wasn’t working, and realized just last week that my elbow functioned way better than it did before my treatment. so cool!
a paleo diet is relatively meaty from what i’ve seen and i haaaaaate eating meat (sensitive digestion from almost 17 years of hardcore drugs vastly improved when i stopped eating meat) but i do love the emphasis on very basic foods. i’ve also read that european wheat and gluten are of better quality than north american, which wouldn’t surprise me–maybe i can get the government to subsidize my “research” trip to switzerland, austria, france, italy : P
wrt the cost i live in a country with universal healthcare, but the tax dollars necessary must be insane, especially considering how ridiculously poorly thought out medicine is and the incredible amount of follow up necessary. i definitely eat a lot of nut butters, fruit, vegetables and beans, and just from a psychological standpoint this makes me feel better. i’m not just choking down a cheap sandwich full of meat i don’t even like eating, i’m making a decision that i know will go in the ol brain bank as a good one.
it absolutely is torture. going to a doctor should make you feel secure, helped, and reassured. you should walk in knowing that you are going to get personalized treatment and unconditional support, but that’s completely the opposite of patriarchy and how good would it look on a doctor if they treated you once and then they weren’t of any use to you again? that would make them seem disposable and there goes their god complex.
much love to you fcm. you are wise as hell, to use the colloquial term.

23. bronte71 - December 16, 2014

Yes, NTE was the final piece of the puzzle for me, too. And a definite game-changer. I hoped it would be for others because
although I don’t consider myself old- not yet invisible to men, damn it- I was a teenager when second wave feminism vanished as if it had never been. Some women got so close then to taking that final step to autonomy.
Maybe some of us can do that, now. Total sovereignty. For however long.

Again, much love.

24. WordWoman - December 16, 2014

Along with print books being your friend, heirloom and non-hybrid seeds are your friend. My advice: Learn to grow them and save them and trade them. Seedsavers has books on this. There’s a wealth of info on the internet about this.

Monsanto has been quietly buying up seed companies that are “organic” and have a good name. Most seed companies are now owned by them. A few aren’t. Growing/seed saving is the only way I know to get non-gmo foods reliably. This will be harder and harder to find in the future.

I suspect from what I have read that the business model for these companies is to profit from climate change, making gmo seeds to withstand it. That seems like a huge fail to me. It just won’t work

Foraging is good, too, but not necessarily enough. If you don’t have a garden or unpolluted soil, google “global buckets.” It’s easy and cheap. Also takes the least amount of water. If you follow the directions exactly, you will usually be highly successful right away. You can get quite a bit of produce on a balcony assuming you have the right sun exposure. I’ve done it! I adore gardening, but even if you don’t feel that good at it, you may find you like it. with gardening there is always more to learn so don’t feel stupid. Grow a variety of things since there is no one perfect growing season for everything. Start small if you do have land to garden on. Pay attention to the plants and their needs. Women are better at this than men. Men have tried to approximate this with various systems, industrial and also alternative ones. Some of these are just hocus-pocus and men trying to gain status and stay in charge. I take what I need from those sources, but you can tell when they are male ego based. For one thing, they become cultlike rather than cultivating 😉

Plants are living beings. Connecting with them is fun. Planting traditional ways in rows and doing a lot of weeding is a waste of time and your energy. Uncovering soil by digging a whole bed each season causes water loss and CO2 pollution. No need to dig, just cover the site with plant material thick enough to kill off weeds or turf, then keep it covered with mulch. Some use cardboard, and I’ve done this, but am a bit more cautious now. Factory-style gardening makes pests/diseases more likely. I don’t do a lot of formal companion planting, but I do think plants will find places they like and companions, especially perennials. Mixed planting is better and I think plants often find a place they like best. My gardens are always untidy and mix a bunch of things together.

Compost and natural fertilizer is extremely important. You can even do worm composting in an apartment. I have. Again, very easy and extremely cheap. A woman called “the worm lady” wrote a good book about it. But no need for the pricey container and worm farms, just use plastic storage totes with tight fitting lids.

I’m just giving out some things I know that others may or may not know. Each woman can find what works best for her and perhaps women’s future communities may find what works best for them.

25. WordWoman - December 16, 2014

Oh, and if you are going to be out in the sun get an enormous sunblocking hat and sunblocking clothes. Seriously, don’t even be out there for 15 minutes without them. Skin cancer is an epidemic and will only grow. We’ve destroyed the atmosphere protecting us from the sun. Chemical and even herbal sunblocks are up to you, but they have downsides and/or can cause allergic reactions.

26. WordWoman - December 16, 2014

sorry, not “the worm lady” but worm woman. Kind of like “wordwoman” :D. Here’s her site, there are lots of imitators.
Here’s the page about her self-publishing and her book, “worms eat my garbage.” http://www.wormwoman.com/acatalog/self_publish.html

I can vouch for this system, I’m very casual about it and have not had it smell (except an earthy smell like soil). I have two worm bins and could have more if there were more room. All from a single purchase of worms. I’ve done it for 4-5 years at least.

27. Alexis Flamethrower Daimon - December 16, 2014

I just read this and found it interesting, both because of the utter STUPIDITY and necrophilia of the men proposing solutions for the problem of air pollution, and because it is crystal clear what needs to be done, but men only do it when it suits THEIR needs, and not destroying the planet is simply not their need.
Also made me think of what the old mathmatician said about problems caused by “solutions.”
Also, what a nightmare. We really are choking already. it is worse than I ever thought.

FCM - December 16, 2014

yes! i noticed that part too, about mens solutions causing problems. they also cause the initial problems of course, so they cause problems and solve them with problematic solutions that cause more problems. this is also a self reinforcing feedback loop, one of so many. PIV (including rape) and female-only infanticide causing too many males to be born, males who only end up raping and impregnating women, causing more males to be born etc. we identified this one over a year ago.

i would also like to mention regarding diet and health that eating gelatin is recommended for joint conditions as well as digestive/GI issues. i have been making homemade chicken stock that is excellent and totally full of gelatin. i roast off a chicken the day before, then pick it apart and put the bones, skin etc covered with cold water back in the roasting pan at 400 for 5 hours. stir it a few times because whatever is sticking out will continue to roast and get very brown, you dont want it to burn. the resulting stock is like liquid gold and makes excellent soup. the cats like it too. 🙂

28. WordWoman - December 16, 2014

Another thing about arthritis. It is known in alternative health circles that nightshade vegetables can cause arthritis (osteo or rheumatoid, not sure which) in sensitive people. Nightshades include tomatoes, white potatoes, peppers, eggplant, tomatillios, and others. Here’s an article about them http://www.gardeningknowhow.com/edible/vegetables/vgen/nightshade-vegetable.htm Here’s another article about nightshades and arthritis http://arthritis.about.com/od/diet/a/Are-Nightshades-Bad-For-Arthritis.htm

You have to take them out of your diet altogether for several months in order to determine if they cause a problem.

Sweet potatoes and yams are just fine, they are not in that plant family.

29. Sargasso Sea - December 16, 2014

So much interesting information! Thanks everybody. 🙂

I wanted to add that I was having some nerve problems in my feet and was sent to see a neurologist who tried to offer me painkillers (no way, man) but when he left the room for a minute I went through his notes and discovered that he thought I simply had a B-1 deficiency.

Anyway he ordered a bunch of tests that he didn’t give me proper instructions for so I drove an hour to the lab only to find out that *I* had done it wrong… I started taking some B supplements and am doing much better.

What an asshole.

FCM - December 17, 2014

thanks everybody. closing comments now.

Sorry comments are closed for this entry

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